New Inmotion V10 / V10F

[WaveCut]

I rode V10F back in may, so I assume lack of acceleration/deceleration has 2 reasons:

1. Top notch hardest response of pedals, you cant overlean them to push, as you do with KS and Co.
2. You afraid to s**t your underwear.


1st may be fixed by leaning forward if you are not affected by point 2.

Edited June 6, 2018 by WaveCut

[soulson]

I noticed the same feeling as that0n3guy. It doesn't feel like the motor is throttled while accelerating; it feels like I can't get enough leverage on the pedals to push it harder. If I jump on the tips of the pedals, it will accelerate quickly. Obviously, that's not a viable way to ride outside of fooling around.

Regarding the "bug" that I had: I want to be clear that the wheel tilted back severely, but slowly enough that I was able to safely stop and dismount. I did not feel like I was in danger, even though that behavior was unexpected.

Regarding the range, I don't think it's that far off, really. The manual says they get their 60mi or whatever max range with a 150lb rider going 10mph on flat ground (probably without any stopping) at ideal temperature blah blah blah. I'm a lot heavier than that, had gear on, was carrying groceries for one leg of the trip, was going much faster, stopping constantly (experimenting with foot pedal settings and such, playing around with the acceleration), and doing some off-roading and hill climbing.

[Fastmike]

14 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

 

 

14 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

OK, just came back from some braking tests this morning.  To my surprise, I have to eat my words.  The braking is on par with the 18S not much worse.  But I could consistently get the same braking on the 18S.  After more tries on the V10F, I was able to get mostly the same result.  Sometimes it is off by 2-3 feet longer. 

Testing was to get going at 15mph then doing braking as hard as I could, I got about 19 feet braking distance for both V10F and 18S.  So it isn't any worse than the KS18S in braking.  Wonder why it feels like it is slower in braking.  But the V10F is 2kw motor vs 1.5kw, also smaller, 17" vs 19", so you would think it should brake harder.  Adjusting the peddle feel did nothing.

The interesting thing is when I did the same testing with the KS16, not S, I was able to consistently do 2-3 feet shorter on the same run from 15mph.  I also noticed the negative current generated by the KS16 was twice that of the KS18S.  20amps vs 10amps.  That explains why it was braking harder.  I don't have a view into the current on the V10F so I cannot compare.

 

 

Thanks for making that valuable test! That is indeed a good pîece of news. The 3 foot difference, which can be critical I agree when braking, is probably partially due to the weight difference between the KS16 and the V10F.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Fastmike

[eddiemoy]

2 minutes ago, Fastmike said:

 

Thanks for making that valuable test! That is indeed a good pîece of news. The 3 foot difference, which can be critical I agree when braking, is probably partially due to the weight difference between the KS16 and the V10F.

I would say the weight difference is negligible in the grand scheme of thing, meaning with your weight added.  the few lbs difference should make a 3 ft difference in braking.  

[Fastmike]

6 minutes ago, soulson said:

Regarding the "bug" that I had: I want to be clear that the wheel tilted back severely, but slowly enough that I was able to safely stop and dismount. I did not feel like I was in danger, even though that behavior was unexpected.

Regarding the range, I don't think it's that far off, really. The manual says they get their 60mi or whatever max range with a 150lb rider going 10mph on flat ground (probably without any stopping) at ideal temperature blah blah blah. I'm a lot heavier than that, had gear on, was carrying groceries for one leg of the trip, was going much faster, stopping constantly (experimenting with foot pedal settings and such, playing around with the acceleration), and doing some off-roading and hill climbing.

Thanks for the clarification about the 'bug' story! That I feel better   ?

About the range, not too sure. I understand your point but 42km seem a little bit short. Will see with more conservative driving. 

[Dany Slx]

7 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

OK, just came back from some braking tests this morning.  To my surprise, I have to eat my words.  The braking is on par with the 18S not much worse.  But I could consistently get the same braking on the 18S.  After more tries on the V10F, I was able to get mostly the same result.  Sometimes it is off by 2-3 feet longer. 

Testing was to get going at 15mph then doing braking as hard as I could, I got about 19 feet braking distance for both V10F and 18S.  So it isn't any worse than the KS18S in braking.  Wonder why it feels like it is slower in braking.  But the V10F is 2kw motor vs 1.5kw, also smaller, 17" vs 19", so you would think it should brake harder.  Adjusting the peddle feel did nothing.

The interesting thing is when I did the same testing with the KS16, not S, I was able to consistently do 2-3 feet shorter on the same run from 15mph.  I also noticed the negative current generated by the KS16 was twice that of the KS18S.  20amps vs 10amps.  That explains why it was braking harder.  I don't have a view into the current on the V10F so I cannot compare.

 

 

Look at this angle to hard break 

[Demargon]

Speculating on the problems of acceleration and braking of the v10f I can not forget my experience with pedal unicycles, specifically a 29 "with short cranks that used when I wanted to increase my speed and pedaling autonomy. This combination of long wheel radius and short pedal multiplies the distance traveled by the wheel every pedal which increases the speed by reducing the number of pedals per distance traveled. This at the same time makes acceleration and braking more difficult, forcing the pilot to move a greater amount of his weight on the pedal to achieve the desired effect.
After this dissertation I go to the case of the v10, although it is far from the 29 "follows the same progression of speed and acceleration than the previous case, by raising its pedals shortens the length of the connecting rod to the wheel axis with which reduces the power with which our weight affects the wheel when we move it from its center, an effect that is further reduced when we find ourselves with a larger wheel radius.

[Mrd777]

3 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

Have you rotated your tire manually without power up to see if the tire/ rim scraps the inside panels? I had an annoying scraping sound and found out the noise was actually coming from the BT speaker. It was not a crackly/ static sound but a sporadic scraping noise. Once I turned off the BT is went away. The sound  has never appeared again even after a long ride this past weekend. 

It there is an actual tire/ rim rub try using jumbo sidewalk chalk and coat both outside regions of the rim and tire. Then try rotating the tire by hand at first to see if any of the chalk wears off in a specific area indicating a rub. If the rub only appears when riding then ride a short distance on the V10F and again check for a rub mark.

If there’s a visible rub mark present send a photo/ video of the area to both  @Bobwheel and @Jeffrey Scott Will for their advice. 

 

Thanks @Rehab1, yes I turned the wheel on the side and studied the problem with a flashlight, and can not see where it's rubbing. I have a feeling its in the motor or axle.

 Im noticing its awfully quiet lately from the Inmotion representatives, quite the contrary when they were available every minute during the drip-drab roll out campaign.?

 

[eddiemoy]

4 minutes ago, Demargon said:

Speculating on the problems of acceleration and braking of the v10f I can not forget my experience with pedal unicycles, specifically a 29 "with short cranks that used when I wanted to increase my speed and pedaling autonomy. This combination of long wheel radius and short pedal multiplies the distance traveled by the wheel every pedal which increases the speed by reducing the number of pedals per distance traveled. This at the same time makes acceleration and braking more difficult, forcing the pilot to move a greater amount of his weight on the pedal to achieve the desired effect.
After this dissertation I go to the case of the v10, although it is far from the 29 "follows the same progression of speed and acceleration than the previous case, by raising its pedals shortens the length of the connecting rod to the wheel axis with which reduces the power with which our weight affects the wheel when we move it from its center, an effect that is further reduced when we find ourselves with a larger wheel radius.

but the pedals on the v10f are longer so that may cancel out the negative effects of the shorter rod?

[Dany Slx]

2 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

but the pedals on the v10f are longer so that may cancel out the negative effects of the shorter rod?

No, I think @Demargon are speaking of the distance between the axe and the platform peddle.

  By the same way, on a bicycle, if your crank are short, it's harder to climb a hill

[eddiemoy]

5 minutes ago, Dany Slx said:

No, I think @Demargon are speaking of the distance between the axe and the platform peddle.

  By the same way, on a bicycle, if your crank are short, it's harder to climb a hill

right, but there are two levers.  one is the crank, the is the pedal, on bike it is rotating, on EUC is fixed, that is how you exert force on the shaft.  if you have a short pedal, it would be harder to put force to rotate.

[Dany Slx]

3 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

right, but there are two levers.  one is the crank, the is the pedal, on bike it is rotating, on EUC is fixed, that is how you exert force on the shaft.  if you have a short pedal, it would be harder to put force to rotate.

On bike, you exert a force on the peddle's axe, not on a wheel. 

I think this is the reason the V10's peddles are so big, you need to exert your force on the border of the platform.

So the difference with other wheels, the distance to exert the force from the point to break and the point to accelerate is longer on the V10/F. Your foot don't move but you use your heel and your toes to exert the force. On other wheels, with a longer crank, it's easier.

It's just a theory of cours ?

[Rehab1]

29 minutes ago, Mrd777 said:

Thanks @Rehab1, yes I turned the wheel on the side and studied the problem with a flashlight, and can not see where it's rubbing. I have a feeling its in the motor or axle.

 Im noticing its awfully quiet lately from the Inmotion representatives, quite the contrary when they were available every minute during the drip-drab roll out campaign.?

 

Thanks for the video. You definately have a rubbing or bearing issue unless some object like a wiring harness clamp or shroud came loose inside. Hopefully @Bobwheel and @Jeffrey Scott Will will respond immediately. I’m frustrated for you!!

[houseofjob]

18 hours ago, em1barns said:

It seems to me the 3-pin port is the same as the v8. If this is the case, there is already a charge doctor for it.

To clarify, this is for the early V8 standard, as the current V8's / Glide 3's use GX12-4 pin now.

So, yes, a GX12-3 Charge Doctor (which already exists), does work, as I'm already using mine with my V10F currently!

[RichieV]

I found it easy enough to adjust my riding style to work with the acceleration/braking characteristics of this wheel.  In fact it's probably what lends to the perceived smoothness of the V10's ride quality.  So for me I think I would remove it from the "Cons" column and just note it as something to be aware of (and I've edited my earlier comment to reflect this).  Still haven't figured out how to play music, though.

Edited June 6, 2018 by RichieV

[that0n3guy]

1 hour ago, Dany Slx said:

Look at this angle to hard break 

This video shows what I'm talking about.   His feet are soo far back on those peddles that he is breaking with his toes off the peddles and putting as much pressure as possible on the outside edge of the peddle.

Everyone keeps talking about 

2 hours ago, Demargon said:

by raising its pedals shortens the length of the connecting rod to the wheel axis with which reduces the power with which our weight

Your talking about moment force (http://www.learneasy.info/MDME/MEMmods/MEM30005A/moments/Moments.html) also known as torque.   What your saying may be correct, but I'm not sure it matters for 2 reasons.   The length of the peddle should help compensate.  Here is my diagram  :

But, my drawing above doesn't matter because its electronic... who cares what the force is on the peddle... the electronics could just react differently and create the same acceleration result.   We have an code problem, not a force problem.

[King Llama]

3 hours ago, Mrd777 said:

Thanks @Rehab1, yes I turned the wheel on the side and studied the problem with a flashlight, and can not see where it's rubbing. I have a feeling its in the motor or axle.

 Im noticing its awfully quiet lately from the Inmotion representatives, quite the contrary when they were available every minute during the drip-drab roll out campaign.?

 

This is the exact same scraping sound that my wheel was making! I posted about it earlier, but mine didn't start making this sound until about 10 miles into my first ride and it came back intermittently throughout my ride. Currently, it is not making the sound and I'm hoping it doesn't come back. Someone earlier in this thread had a similar scraping sound and tore down his wheel and found it to be a motor bearing issue.

You should reach out to whoever you purchased your wheel from for support. It's a better method than these forums.

[houseofjob]

53 minutes ago, that0n3guy said:

This video shows what I'm talking about.   His feet are soo far back on those peddles that he is breaking with his toes off the peddles and putting as much pressure as possible on the outside edge of the peddle.

‘He’, as in me. ? 

I do this with all my EUCs now, ever since I started playing with non-traditional foot placement. Way better for leveraging the pedals when braking, EUC model regardless.

This kind of non-traditional foot positioning also makes all this pedal size complaining and foot pain talk a non-issue.

IMHO EUC pedals are only a suggestion of where to place your feet, there's nothing saying you can't place them against the edge of the pedal if you can gain enough leverage (or better leverage!)

Edited June 6, 2018 by houseofjob

[that0n3guy]

56 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

‘He’, as in me.

Ha, I didn't know that was you!    I've been messing with different foot placement lately.    I tried something similar to yours yesterday, I felt like it was great for fast breaking, but sucked for acceleration.    Maybe i'm used to the squishy 14c... but I feel like if I lean forward really hard, the peddles should tip with my feet almost so my toes/heals can't lift off.   The might have other negative issues with it though I've not discovered.

[houseofjob]

7 minutes ago, that0n3guy said:

Ha, I didn't know that was you!    I've been messing with different foot placement lately.    I tried something similar to yours yesterday, I felt like it was great for fast breaking, but sucked for acceleration.    Maybe i'm used to the squishy 14c... but I feel like if I lean forward really hard, the peddles should tip with my feet almost so my toes/heals can't lift off.   The might have other negative issues with it though I've not discovered.

Ha, yeah, @Citi Wheel hardly films himself these days, so I usually end up being the subject, esp when my wheels are involved LOL

For acceleration, I'll use only one foot and move it up the pedal to press & accelerate, while my other foot hangs back.

This allows me to 1.) not overlean, 2.) switch directions /pressures fairly quickly, as my back foot is stable and ready to apply different pressure, and 3.) press the hell out of the front accel pedal, even reaching over the front edge, as much as I want while the rest of my body stays balanced, 

Edited June 6, 2018 by houseofjob

[that0n3guy]

52 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

For acceleration, I'll use only one foot and move it up the pedal to press & accelerate, while my other foot hangs back.

so left foot back and right foot forward for example?   So you accelerate with right foot mostly and break with left foot mostly?   Seems like that would make it hard to turn hard right but easy to turn hard left... but maybe not. I'll have to try it.

Edited June 6, 2018 by that0n3guy

[houseofjob]

16 minutes ago, that0n3guy said:

so left foot back and right foot forward for example?   So you accelerate with right foot mostly and break with left foot mostly?

Doesn’t matter, but as I’m a righty and don’t ride goofy (boards) usually right foot back.

 

16 minutes ago, that0n3guy said:

Seems like that would make it hard to turn hard right but easy to turn hard left... but maybe not. I'll have to try it.

Different positions for different actions!

My feet never stay stationary, you can’t have total manipulation of the wheel if your feet just stay planted in one spot. I’m constantly heel-toe pivoting to gain max leverage for whatever the action is, braking, accel, etc.

For turning now, I’ll pivot the turn direction foot so the toes face more into and perpendicular to the body of the wheel. This allows me to super carve, where my heel can hang off the pedal and kiss the ground, pre-pedal scrape. This positioning also helps you move slowly in crowds, changing your pivot plane from the traditional front-to-back to left-to-right.

Key is, there are no rules, play around!

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by houseofjob

[beast@tanagra]

6 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Different positions for different actions!

My feet never stay stationary, you can’t have total manipulation of the wheel if your feet just stay planted in one spot. I’m constantly heel-toe pivoting to gain max leverage for whatever the action is, braking, accel, etc.

For turning now, I’ll pivot the turn direction foot so the toes face into and perpendicular to the body of the wheel. This allows me to super carve, where my heel hanging off the pedal can kiss the ground pre-pedal scrape. This positioning also helps you move slow, changing your pivot plane from the traditional front-to-back to left-to-right.

Key is, there are no rules, play around!

A selfie-stick video of your feet while you perform some of these examples and talk us through your decision making would be really freakin' cool.

[houseofjob]

1 hour ago, beast@tanagra said:

A selfie-stick video of your feet while you perform some of these examples and talk us through your decision making would be really freakin' cool.

Not very easy, but I’ll try to figure out how to film that!

[Esash]

Where the heck are the InMotion company guys at? Seems like half this forum bought a V10F