Begode Master 134V 2400WH Suspension

[alcatraz]

15 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I am honestly a little concerned about both the master and the s20. Both are 4p battery packs but now with stepped up voltage and performance?

As we have seen, 4p packs are the most risk of thermal runaway. And imo, a good portion of that has to do with them being right in the performance demand sweet spot. They are strong enough to be ridden extremely aggressively. Both in terms of discharge and regen braking. They are also purchased by riders who demand more from their machine as in fast charging and riding in unfavorable conditions. 

Putting those extreme stressors on 4 sets of series instead of say 6 or 8, means each set is getting further and further out of balance over time. Now we have wheels here that will want even more discharge power, and even harder regenerative braking. And they are suspension wheels whish we see even from the ads and demos people whant to do absurd things with. Jumping , and crashing, and mud riding etc. Riders will be abusing these batteries worse than any other 4p model released yet most likely.

Thankfully the s20 has a fairly advanced BMS which knowledgeable riders will be able to monitor their battery with. But thats only helping riders who kmow what voltages are and how dangerous an unbalanced battery is.

I have heard a substantial claim that begode will be delivering smart bms batteries in the coming month. Ive heard future batches of the master will contain these smart bms batteries. I hope its enough to prevent serious issues. Im afraid it will only be useful for enthusiasts however. 

Hopefully both companies include firmware battery monitoring that will alert riders when and cells get out if synch and wont allow them to ride until the pack is fully.balanced

I've been writing this for months. People that just stare at the numbers 126/134v, 3300w and High Torque, are going to be disappointed when it comes to acceleration and braking. The S20 uses the same low current M50LT cells you find elsewhere. In a 4P configuration it's just as limited as those other wheels (MSP, Nikola, RS). Heavy riders or race drivers beware. It's basically another S18 situation waiting to happen. The pack is too weak for the rated power draw. The voltage sag will be extreme if you attempt to push the wheel to its limits. Replace those cells with high current cells and it's another story. At least Begode has an option for better cells. Be aware though that Samsung 50E and 50G cells aren't much different from LG M50LT (although marginally better by ca 10-15% if memory serves). 50S cells however are amazing. They're the best from both worlds. Capacity (5000mAh) and extremely high current (35A). Super expensive stuff though.

Edited February 25, 2022 by alcatraz

[techyiam]

13 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

That's odd. Using Lithium Iron(phosphate) LiFePo4 cells occupies a lot more space than Li-Ion and the Master does not have LiFePo4 option listed. I don't quite see how they're going to offer it.

I don't think Begode ever did. Begode did offered the LFP option in the EX2, but it looks like they pulled it.

[alcatraz]

4 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I don't think Begode ever did. Begode did offered the LFP option in the EX2, but it looks like they pulled it.

Mm, right. The picture Kutvelo just posted indicates it. I find it unlikely though. 

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Mm, right. The picture Kutvelo just posted indicates it. I find it unlikely though. 

True that, but I suspect that it is more likely Alienrides screwed up since Molicel P42a is not LFP.

[supercurio]

@GoGeorgeGo keep in mind that with 120x 21700 cells, the S20 has the same power delivery capability as a 100.8V 5p would.
So right in between 24s4p (RS/Nikola) and 24s6p (EX.N)

Just like @alcatraz mentions, the S20 has a functioning smart BMS reporting all status to the board, and effective current limits which make the wheel beep, let the rider reduce the pressure instead of draining too much from the cells.

For the Master tho, it's unknown.
We only can tell that it has 128 cells, but it has not been published yet if Begode has implemented any communication between the packs BMSs and the mainboard, which is an absolute requirement for safe EUC operation.

 

[goatman]

11 hours ago, Rolzi said:

if you ride alot in freezing temperatures the p42a has less volt sag/more range,  than a 40T

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=107573&hilit=p42a+test&start=25#p1597148

then you need to look at what materials they use for pack construction

its interesting they charge so much more for p42a and 40T than the m50

40T and m50 are the same price where i live

are they building the packs differently with heavier nickel and fatter wires?

 

 

[Kutvis]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

This is possible because euc buyers have shown that they prefer more range over no of risk of fire, until their houses or apartments burn down. In fact, it looks like Begode.com has remove their lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery models from their euc line up on their website. Interestingly enough though, the Extreme Bull K6 uses LFP.

Aye, I agree. All the wheels can catch fire, but the gotway's got .. what 10x chanse to others? Thus this makes it more ironic in my eyes

(yea, I am riding MSP down to -18c/-0,4F. Trying to get down to -20c, but so far it is too cold to my face. I'm also the destroyer of wheels :P)

Edited February 25, 2022 by Kutvelo

[Paradox]

6 minutes ago, Kutvelo said:

Interestingly enough though, the Extreme Bull K6 uses LFP.

I was surprised to learn this info.  Thanks!

[meepmeepmayer]

Guys, "iron" and "ion" often sound 99% the same in English as the "r" gets absorbed. This is definitely a typo, nothing more. Possibly text entry by speech recognition. At most it is a misunderstanding or "massaging" of the facts by AlienRides.

These are Li-Ion (no "r") cells like usual. You have the choice between 5000mAh Samsung cells (very similar to what is in all the other wheels) or 4000mAh Molicel cells (high discharge, less capacity).

No LFP (the F is actual iron) chemistry or any other different chemistry than usual.

Also, only certain LG cell packs had the fire problems. These Li-Ion cells are not all bad or unsafe in general (but they do burn if ignited, such is life and this particular chemistry).

[Freeforester]

 

[Freeforester]

 

[gon2fast]

Deposit in with the Molicel config. This will replace my MSPHT with upgrades.

 

 

[Paradox]

It seems to have no front fender. 

Source video at time stamped.

https://youtu.be/GeXvuN1tZSU?t=255

 

[EMA]

3 hours ago, Paradox said:

It seems to have no front fender. 

 

all of this "new uncovered wheels" should be modded in some way,  riding such wheels in the dirt will be mess, both summer and winter

[Wgm]

So if alienrides offers higher discharge 42a molicel batteries will the firmware even be able to provide extra power/current to the wheel then the OG batteries?

[alcatraz]

5 minutes ago, Wgm said:

So if alienrides offers higher discharge 42a molicel batteries will the firmware even be able to provide extra power/current to the wheel then the OG batteries?

The voltage and thus speed limit is the same. 

The acceleration (and likely braking) however will be different.

A wheel is only as powerful as its weakest link. Motor + board + battery. By having 35A x 4 = 140A at your disposal, instead of 10A x 4 = 40A with M50LT cells, you can imagine the potential. It won't be a small difference.

There is the possibility of using high current and high capacity cells. Samsung 50S cells are 5000mAh AND 35A. Availability, unknown. Price, expensive.

Anyway, to try and answer your question. By removing the pack from the limit calculation, now it falls on the board or the motor. It's going to come down to heat, mosfets, capacitors, solder joints, wire gauge, motor resiliance to high currents etc. 

[alcatraz]

The board doesn't limit the current in software. It will let you pull current until it self destructs.

[alcatraz]

It's hard to predict the failure mode of a high amp Begode Master. Whoever tries better be wearing full armor, motorcycle one piece leather suit and back protection.

[supercurio]

Since this video was published again, this time on YouTube I left a comment to ask their thinking:

Comment:

What is the purpose of this test, and what is it intend to simulate?
It appears you are testing the motor/controller against an unspecified amount of rolling resistance, which is between the 2 metallic rollers and the tire at unknown tire pressure.
Is it a test of the balancing algorithm stability at higher speeds?

One thing this test demonstrates is that that the Begode Master cannot sustain balancing a rider at 100km/h - 61 mph, since the power demand required from the aero drag will be vastly higher than the rolling resistance in this test.

[RagingGrandpa]

12 hours ago, alcatraz said:

The board doesn't limit the current in software.

But it does!  

On 7/30/2020 at 11:44 AM, RagingGrandpa said:

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/19307-exactly-how-much-battery-current-are-we-talking-about-msx-electrical-test/

 

13 hours ago, Wgm said:

if alienrides offers higher discharge 42a molicel batteries will the firmware even be able to provide extra power/current to the wheel?

Good point: it won't.

The firmware current limit will be the same (e.g.: 230A motor current). So the benefit will only come from being able to reach that 230A motor current at higher speeds, due to less voltage sag.

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

So the benefit will only come from being able to reach that 230A motor current at higher speeds, due to less voltage sag.

Yes, so the people that push their wheels to the limits will be going even faster than usual when their wheel craps out.

What could possibly go wrong?

Unless riders start chilling out or the manufacturers start easing back on top speeds, euc's are gonna start hitting headlines for the wrong reasons quick smart. Its started already tbf.

[alcatraz]

10 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

The firmware current limit will be the same (e.g.: 230A motor current). So the benefit will only come from being able to reach that 230A motor current at higher speeds, due to less voltage sag.

That's interesting. I'm curious if you think a current limit has ever led to an accident?

If I were a heavier rider in a group ride I'd be concerned.

Now that multiple pack options are emerging, we will certainly find out if the software needs tweaking when switching between packs. 

Also is the current limit pack dependant or is it simply to protect the board?

I read the post you linked to. I don't quite see how it's indicating current limiting, as much as overreporting. Is "safety" viewed as preventing cutouts or self (euc) preservation? I always thought Gotway was in the former camp, and the others in the latter.

[alcatraz]

11 hours ago, supercurio said:

One thing this test demonstrates is that that the Begode Master cannot sustain balancing a rider at 100km/h - 61 mph, since the power demand required from the aero drag will be vastly higher than the rolling resistance in this test.

Like you said. We don't know if the roller resistance is greater or lower than real life riding. It's going to be extremely sensitive to wind resistance at those speeds. That's for sure.

[GoGeorgeGo]

12 hours ago, Planemo said:

Yes, so the people that push their wheels to the limits will be going even faster than usual when their wheel craps out.

What could possibly go wrong?

Unless riders start chilling out or the manufacturers start easing back on top speeds, euc's are gonna start hitting headlines for the wrong reasons quick smart. Its started already tbf.

I can only speak from the perspective of an american, but highly doubtful accidents catch major attention here. Individual locations may take action, but its not going to get national attention unless we suddenly start seeing hundreds of thousands of new riders. Would need to be popularized by a celebrity to catch on at massive scale and draw attention like that.

In general, the public freaks out over you killing innocent people, not you killing yourself. 

The Master will push the limit further than before, but honestly we are only talking marginally faster than a sherman. To a legislator, there isnt a difference between 52 mph and 61 mph. Would take a wheel breaking the 70-80 mph speed and people starting to bomb highways to really move the needle

[EMA]

50E or 40T , not an easy choise to me right now