Begode Master 134V 2400WH Suspension

[nosamplesplease]

1 hour ago, btl said:

As far as i understand, the travel of the shock is not the same as the pedals versus motor, which is what counts. Through the linkage lever, the shock travels less.

https://youtu.be/KBB_b2KpVz8

NOT the same but essentially this dude explains how, through rotation, a shock can move a different distance than the carried weight in relation to the ground. Looks like the opposite ratio to me.

[meepmeepmayer]

Question about the suspension:

The King Song S20 has this (very cool looking!) spring in addition to the air shock thingie (are there two shocks?). See picture:

The Master (and EX20S) seem only to have the shock.

How does the spring work? Does it work together with the shock, to create a more elaborate suspension behavior? Is it more of a fallback that kicks in when the air shock is compressed much? What does the spring do?

Or is it just a different suspension design? I'm not familiar with what KS does with the S18 and S20.

Trying to figure out how good the Master's suspension can be expected to be compared to the S20.

Edited January 27, 2022 by meepmeepmayer
picture added

[techyiam]

Using terminology from full suspension mountain bikes, the suspension travel is generally greater than the length of the shock stroke. And hence, the suspension leverage ratio is generally greater than 1.

[BecauseFun]

2 hours ago, btl said:

As far as i understand, the travel of the shock is not the same as the pedals versus motor, which is what counts. Through the linkage lever, the shock travels less.

Thank you for the clarification, knowing the geometry of the suspension design is what determines travel does make sense in hindsight.  I had made the erroneous assumption that EUC suspension travel was just another technical term subject to marketing department exaggeration, and I remember doing the math and thinking it didn't add up. 

9.1 inch pedal height minus 4.72 inch (120mm) suspension travel equaled 4.38 inches off the ground when fully compressed, which seemed kind of low when I thought of the s20's off-road focus. It remains to be seen if that low point height isn't thought to be too low, but in general I like the idea of the greatest suspension travel being possible if you are going to put together a suspension wheel in the first place.

[techyiam]

24 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Question about the suspension:

The King Song S20 has this (very cool looking!) spring in addition to the air shock thingie (are there two shocks?). See picture:

The Master (and EX20S) seem only to have the shock.

How does the spring work? Does it work together with the shock, to create a more elaborate suspension behavior? Is it more of a fallback that kicks in when the air shock is compressed much? What does the spring do?

Or is it just a different suspension design? I'm not familiar with what KS does with the S18 and S20.

Trying to figure out how good the Master's suspension can be expected to be compared to the S20.

From the picture, it looks to me, the S20 shock uses a coil spring. No air-spring is utilized. I don't see a canister that is large enough to hold enough air to act as a spring. The shock without the spring is the damper itself with a piggyback oil reservoir I believe.

[BecauseFun]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Question about the suspension:

The King Song S20 has this (very cool looking!) spring in addition to the air shock thingie (are there two shocks?). See picture:

The Master (and EX20S) seem only to have the shock.

How does the spring work? Does it work together with the shock, to create a more elaborate suspension behavior? Is it more of a fallback that kicks in when the air shock is compressed much? What does the spring do?

Or is it just a different suspension design? I'm not familiar with what KS does with the S18 and S20.

Trying to figure out how good the Master's suspension can be expected to be compared to the S20.

As proven by my one of my most recent statements in this thread, there is a lot I still have to learn about suspensions. But since I have suspensions on my mind, I'll take a crack at this. (And throw a couple of other things on my mind in for the hell of it) In looking at the difference between a 550 lb spring and a 750 lb spring, bike riders would say they preferred the latter because it resulted in a firmer ride, 550lbs being too soft.

As to a shock without a spring, I'm not going to make the mistake of thinking another component like a spring** automatically makes it better. There are some springless suspensions for bikes out there that get a lot of love.

B̶u̶t̶ I̶ w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ a̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶ v̶e̶r̶y̶ l̶e̶a̶s̶t̶ h̶a̶v̶i̶n̶g̶ n̶o̶ s̶p̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ i̶n̶c̶r̶e̶a̶s̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ p̶o̶s̶s̶i̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ o̶f̶ w̶e̶a̶r̶ i̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ s̶h̶o̶c̶k̶. And generally speaking I like the idea of a proven suspension component like the DNM over a no-name house brand like Begode put in the Hero. Granted the Master is supposed to have rebound adjustment added, but at $2900 total, the shock is also likely to be no-name house brand.

Before the announcement of the Master, I was leaning heavily towards getting the Hero and either upgrading the suspension myself or have Alienrides do it. I think I will end up with an S20 eventually, but as much as I want a suspension wheel, first generations of anything can be a risky crap-shoot. The Hero is not popular but could still be a solid 1stgen choice in comparison to the s20 because unlike the s20 where just about everything is new - motor, 126v, motherboard and electronics behind it all, the Hero's main change is the suspension, with Begode's c30/38 100 volt motherboard being nothing I'd worry about.

But compared to the Master, it makes it hard to choose the Hero because even though 134v is new and risky, the Master has 600wh more batterywise then the Hero and promises to be significantly faster in acceleration and top speed - all at a lower price. 

In general I hate the idea of having to get used to a 13in width in either the Master or s20, and the Master's pads might not be ideal, but overall I have more trust in Begode getting 100v+ done correctly right out of the gate then any other manufacturer. Begode (+Veteran/ExtremeBull) has a ton of experience in 100v wheels. To date there is no other manufacturer that has shipped a production wheel greater than 84 volts, unless you include the likely mosfet-handicapped v12 which has yet to be fully resolved cut-out problems.

134v admittedly makes me a little nervous and while I predict the s20 will eventually be the off-road wheel to beat, I do far more crappy road street riding. If I'm going to try a first gen wheel greater than 100 volts, I like my chances best with Begode.

** I also initially thought that the s20 suspension was a coil spring surrounding an air shock, not an oil dampened spring.

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

From the picture, it looks to me, the S20 shock uses a coil spring. No air-spring is utilized. I don't see a canister that is large enough to hold enough air to act as a spring. The shock without the spring is the damper itself with a piggyback oil reservoir I believe.

19 minutes ago, BecauseFun said:

** I also initially thought that the s20 suspension was a coil spring surrounding an air shock, not an oil dampened spring.

That explains it, it is just one damping system from multiple parts!

So what is the thing the Master uses? An air shock?

[BecauseFun]

34 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That explains it, it is just one damping system from multiple parts!

So what is the thing the Master uses? An air shock?

I believe an air shock is what the Hero uses, here is what is believed to be the shock that alien rides can put in for you on the Hero as an upgrade (190mm or 200mm):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07THNZVD2/

As far as what the Master uses, I don't think anyone knows for sure yet but my bet is that it is a generic version of the above linked shock, which has rebound adjustment for a better off-road experience and less pogo-sticking overall.

Since the "suspension cage" seems less prominent on the Master though, I am guessing it could be a 165mm design, as opposed to the Hero @190/200mm, and the s20 @240mm.

That is just a pure guess just based on looking at the pictures. In case it's true here are some possible native shock travel numbers:
165mm: 35mm
190-200mm: 35mm-53mm
240mm: 76mm

Again the actual suspension travel for the Hero and the Master are 80mm, and the S20 is 120mm. One might assume that starting out with a larger shock whether it's spring based and oil dampened or air-based with or without rebound might translate into the best end result, but that's just an assumption.

[Planemo]

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

 The shock without the spring is the damper itself with a piggyback oil reservoir I believe.

Correct The canister is a pressurized oil reservoir for the damping system only. Damping can be done within the body of the coil shock but using an external reservoir allows for more oil and less heat. It provides a more reliable damping circuit when pushed hard.

Re travel, I think it has already been mentioned that shock travel is very rarely 1:1 with wheel travel. Eg my MTB has 160mm wheel travel from a 65mm stroke shock (with an eye to eye shock length of 205mm). Of course, a swing arm on an MTB provides a natural leverage and reduction in ratio which an EUC doesnt have, hence why EUC's need an elaborate/bulky setup of linkages. The V11 went a different route and just used extremely high pressure but as I have said before I much prefer the linkage route, despite its weight and bulk.

The coil spring/remote reservoir setup of the S20 should in theory provide the best possible suspension action, plus its using a long travel shock which should go further in reducing heat build up on the damping circuit. As with everything though, it all comes down to the quality of the shock itself. DNM is at the very bottom of the 'known brands' ladder but for sure, IMO, the S20 apeears to have the best suspension on any EUC I have seen.

[gtnub]

On 1/24/2022 at 11:25 AM, supercurio said:

@GoGeorgeGo @RagingGrandpa @Greg X

Rated to 2300W and you can adjust the voltage and current to your liking (including beyond the max rated current most likely)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000494992858.html
I got the 140V version, but I was told by the seller it can also output higher current than 15A at lower voltage. Not that I might need that soon 😅

This version has a small screw behind the grill to adjust the voltage so it can't change by accident in your backpack, and you don't need to set it every time it turns on like some similar models.

So far I calibrated mine to a precise 100.8V, and and used it a few times to charge at 12A.
It has no issue finishing charging the Sherman despite its BMS turning things on/off in the end.

The amazing thing is that it's approx 2kg indeed! And small enough to fit in any backpack, no issue.

I got it expecting wheels would continue to go up beyond the 126V of the S20.

Looking to pull the trigger on this but looking for 20a @ 100.8v. Are you able to see what it's capable of charging with no wheel plugged in? 

[meepmeepmayer]

41 minutes ago, gtnub said:

20a

Don't melt your charge port or wiring!

[Planemo]

6 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Don't melt your charge port or wiring!

Even if the wiring and ports don't start glowing, the BMS will 

[RagingGrandpa]

1 hour ago, gtnub said:

looking for 20a @ 100.8v

As described in the listing:

Quote

when the input voltage is 110V, the output voltage does not change and the output current becomes half of the original.

So for our north american 120VAC household power, this is a 1500W supply, which means less than 15A delivered to the EUC.

And as mentioned above, charging a 2400wh pack at more than 1200W equivalent is not advised, and will almost certainly be prevented by the EUC.

[meepmeepmayer]

35 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

prevented by the EUC resulting fire

Fixed

[gtnub]

48 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

As described in the listing:

So for our north american 120VAC household power, this is a 1500W supply, which means less than 15A delivered to the EUC.

And as mentioned above, charging a 2400wh pack at more than 1200W equivalent is not advised, and will almost certainly be prevented by the EUC.

Oh dang, just realized I was thinking from a 240v. Nevermind!

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, gtnub said:

Oh dang, just realized I was thinking from a 240v. Nevermind!

Good catch @RagingGrandpa.

@EUC Addict uses his on EV charging stations which offer 240VAC, as illustrated in this video:

However since I live in Europe I can fast charge anywhere with this type of charger.
20A is technically feasible with 2x10A which is the limit of the connectors as long as you solder your adapter from XT60 to 2x double-pinned GX16-5.

Then is 20A a good idea? In this video Shane is charging at 18A.
Might be fine on the Monster Pro, but won't work on any other wheel (Commander is capped to 12A, Sherman tends to throttle charging beyond 12.5A, and for 2700 Wh wheels it won't be great for the cells)

This charger is not as compelling for 120V AC regions but still a convincing proposition as rapid charger for 84 / 100.8 / 126 / 134.4V wheels once you make the adapters needed.
Future proof up to... 33s, getting close already 😂

Edited January 29, 2022 by supercurio

[Ben Kim]

On 1/27/2022 at 12:33 AM, alcatraz said:

GX20-4 is the same charge port as 84v gotways. What would happen if someone connected the 134v charger to an 84v wheel? Fireworks?

No, its not. The 84V Gotways use GX16-4 +1-2 

with that said, I’m holding out for the HS variant which is all but certain to come out. That wheel is going to be a serious adrenaline rush! 

[GoGeorgeGo]

11 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

No, its not. The 84V Gotways use GX16-4 +1-2 

with that said, I’m holding out for the HS variant which is all but certain to come out. That wheel is going to be a serious adrenaline rush! 

Idk if they will make a high speed variant honestly. They where hesitant to even make the ex20s high speed edition. And with a free spin of 69.5 mph already on a torque motor , your reaching points of diminishing returns when it comes to adding even more speed on a 2400wh battery. Your getting the best of both worlds, a torque wheel with the fastest top speed ever. Cant see the market for 60+ mph wheels being that large. 50+ seems to be the magic ticket , fast enough for people to comfortably ride in the 40s without overlean risk

[Tawpie]

Keep in mind that at 50+ mph you're going to need plenty of torque just to push the air out of the way. The spandex clad physics types indicated 50 mph requires 8x the power to maintain than it takes at 25 mph.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Tawpie

[Ben Kim]

43 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Idk if they will make a high speed variant honestly. They where hesitant to even make the ex20s high speed edition. And with a free spin of 69.5 mph already on a torque motor , your reaching points of diminishing returns when it comes to adding even more speed on a 2400wh battery. Your getting the best of both worlds, a torque wheel with the fastest top speed ever. Cant see the market for 60+ mph wheels being that large. 50+ seems to be the magic ticket , fast enough for people to comfortably ride in the 40s without overlean risk

You’re missing one valuable point, you’re not riding 40s on lower battery on any 100v wheel. The whole reason the HS wheels are desirable isn’t the fact they can do 55+ mph, it’s the speeds you can travel when the battery is at 50% and below. 
 

You’re seeing it simply from a top speed perspective, im seeing it from a usability perspective. 

[Boris Lämpel]

My question is: how much temperature/voltage will the 60 V motor bear before burning/melting and the magnets becoming too hot for bei magnetic...

[Paul A]

Kinetic energy is directly proportional to the mass of the object and to the square of its velocity: K.E. = 1/2 m v²

 

 

How much energy does it take to double speed?

Originally Answered: By what factor does kinetic energy increase when the speed is double? Kinetic energy is proportional to the square of speed, all things else being equal. So double the speed, get 4 times the energy.

 

 

Since the kinetic energy increases with the square of the speed, an object doubling its speed has four times as much kinetic energy. For example, a car traveling twice as fast as another requires four times as much distance to stop, assuming a constant braking force.

 

_______________________________________

 

 

Illustrates:

An EUC battery is going to provide 4 times the range traveling at 25mph than at 50mph.

Manufacturers' claims of EUC range can be achieved at the lower speeds....it's just that riders probably don't typically travel at those low speeds.

 

[Tawpie]

Kinetic energy is part of it, drag is added on to the power required—aerodynamics is the excuse for spandex but I don’t know if that’s the whole story…

Edited January 29, 2022 by Tawpie

[meepmeepmayer]

Kinetic energy is irrelevant as long as you don't change it, meaning you change your speed. Air resistance as well as other resistances (electrics and electronics, tire, etc.) are the main energy consumption of an electric unicycle, unless you were to always accelerate to max speed and the brake to zero and repeat until the battery is empty. In real life, your speed is more or less constant most of the time. Not much of your battery consumption has to do with changing your speed and therefore any kinetic energy (and you even get part of it back from the regenerative braking).

Anyways, not sure what this has to do with the Master

The argument that a speed wheel has better margins at low battery is a good one, though.

I'm wondering if Begode always want to offer HT and HS options, or if the voltage increase is meant to allow for only one motor to both offer enough torque and speed. I think the 134V might be an attempt to have only one motor type. I also wouldn't be surprised if speed fanboys make them offer a HS version later.

Edited January 29, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[Paul A]

It is a bit off topic.

Riding at a higher speed on an EUC has a dramatic effect on the power consumption and range.

Other effects will also be contributors.

Rougher surfaces and rolling resistance of gravel on a rail trail consumes a lot more battery energy.