Begode Master 134V 2400WH Suspension

[Gaman]

The energy required can go up to the cube of speed, depending on rolling resistance (linear) and wind resistance (quadratic). These are the dominating and limiting factors.

[alcatraz]

4 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

No, its not. The 84V Gotways use GX16-4 +1-2 

with that said, I’m holding out for the HS variant which is all but certain to come out. That wheel is going to be a serious adrenaline rush! 

Thanks. Someone else already pointed it out. That's good.👍

[alcatraz]

Because this wheel supports a wide range of speeds, tires, rider weights, terrain....

...chances are the mileage is going to vary vastly from rider to rider.

I'm a bit concerned with a heavy rider and voltage sag. It's only a 4p battery system. There will be quite severe voltage sag compared to other wheels like sherman, unless the cells are something absolutely spectacular (unlikely).

So while the voltage does indicate higher speed, the current is not that much greater than the current wheels like rs/nikola. If current goes in hand with acceleration, then this wheel shouldn't be an acceleration beast.

Considering it's a new base voltage, riders better test it well before taking risks on it. Maybe it will eat capacitors/mosfets. This applies to the S20 as well.

[xiiijojjo]

It has 134v i always like more of those volts it even has a trolley and rear light...

No BT speaker, built in "pads" that seemingly cannot be adjusted, and that horrible new trend of an underslung stand...

 

I really hate this approach to stands as it steals clearance for the wheel to go up or down terrain/curbs without getting stuck. Look to Raciowheel for someone who understands how important underside clearance is on an EUC.

This trend i think started with the Kingsong S18 of "ergonomic" design for the calves is just straight up horrible for people who want performance out of their wheel but then again if you want performance you'd probably buy something other than a S18 , no offence to S18 owners. We want, no we NEED a flat rectangular surface on the side of the euc like with the EB Commander or Veteran Sherman. Something like a Gotway RS has alright side panels but they curve at the edges losing you surface area at the most extreme frontal and rear positions which is where you'd ideally want your pads. 

Man no wonder people are tired of pointing out the same things to these companies and start these projects like racio wheel to show what's possible. 

As things are looking currently i imagine my next wheel will either be so far in the future that features such as waterproofing, proper front and rear light, BT speakers and a sound design have become the norm, or in the future, i'll just have to find an ancient Veteran Sherman body and find a way to Frankenstein it together with the innards of the 2026 Gotway EXsuper v4.

[meepmeepmayer]

5 minutes ago, xiiijojjo said:

Man no wonder people are tired of pointing out the same things to these companies

Oh boy that sentence hits hard. So true.

6 minutes ago, xiiijojjo said:

i'll just have to find an ancient Veteran Sherman body and find a way to Frankenstein it together with the innards of the 2026 Gotway EXsuper v4.

I would be extremely surprised if the next Veteran wheel is anything but a suspension 20-incher (what else would it be?). So there may be hope for you.

[Eucner]

14 hours ago, Tawpie said:

The spandex clad physics types indicated 50 mph requires 8x the power to maintain than it takes at 25 mph.

Good for spandex, when considering air drag only. At the low speed the most resistance comes from rolling and at the high speed it is the air drag. From 25 to 50 mph we are already at the latter area, so above statement is accurate enough.

The equation for drag force is   . Energy is force times distance and power is energy divided by time. Velocity is distance divided by time. So air drag power is proportional to velocity³. This will effectively limit the speed we can reach with EUC's, and eventually merge HS and HT variants. 

13 hours ago, Paul A said:

Kinetic energy is directly proportional to the mass of the object and to the square of its velocity: K.E. = 1/2 m v²

As @meepmeepmayer already noted, kinetic energy is only part of the power demand. Power is needed to

• gain kinetic energy i.e. accelerate
• gain potential energy i.e. climb uphill
• come over electrical inefficiency
• come over bearing and sealing resistance
• come over rolling resistance
• come over air drag
• add temperature
• make noise

[Ben Kim]

13 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Kinetic energy is irrelevant as long as you don't change it, meaning you change your speed. Air resistance as well as other resistances (electrics and electronics, tire, etc.) are the main energy consumption of an electric unicycle, unless you were to always accelerate to max speed and the brake to zero and repeat until the battery is empty. In real life, your speed is more or less constant most of the time. Not much of your battery consumption has to do with changing your speed and therefore any kinetic energy (and you even get part of it back from the regenerative braking).

Anyways, not sure what this has to do with the Master

The argument that a speed wheel has better margins at low battery is a good one, though.

I'm wondering if Begode always want to offer HT and HS options, or if the voltage increase is meant to allow for only one motor to both offer enough torque and speed. I think the 134V might be an attempt to have only one motor type. I also wouldn't be surprised if speed fanboys make them offer a HS version later.

Going 40 mph GPS sustained the average drain rate for me is around 70 Wh/ mile, I would imagine it to go up to 120 Wh/ mile at 55 mph, meaning for all intents and purposes a theoretical HS Master would get around 15 miles range after accounting for the remaining Wh @ 3.3V per cell. Of course this is all contingent on Gotway releasing such a variant. 

I recall the same arguments being presented when 100V first came on the scene, along with it resurfacing 2 years ago when big battery 100V wheels with higher speeds (Sherman) got released. 

[RagingGrandpa]

4 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

120 Wh/ mile at 55 mph

A 6600W continuous discharge.
14A per cell, just under 3C. 
Your EUC will overheat very quickly in this condition. The pack, controller, and motor will all be outside their ratings.

[BecauseFun]

5 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

Going 40 mph GPS sustained the average drain rate for me is around 70 Wh/ mile, I would imagine it to go up to 120 Wh/ mile at 55 mph, meaning for all intents and purposes a theoretical HS Master would get around 15 miles range after accounting for the remaining Wh @ 3.3V per cell. Of course this is all contingent on Gotway releasing such a variant. . 

From Marty last night in Duf's livestream:

"The Master will not be made in a HS version because Gotway has stated that the small motor can't be made to turn faster than the HT version."

[Planemo]

11 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

A 6600W continuous discharge.
14A per cell, just under 3C. 
Your EUC will overheat very quickly in this condition. The pack, controller, and motor will all be outside their ratings.

He's not doing that, he's seeing 70Wh at 40mph. The 55mph was a theoretical number. But I agree with him, sustained 55mph on an EUC will use huge amounts of power, more than they can reasonably carry with current battery tech even if they make the hardware to deal with it.

It's the reason why I think top speeds will plateau. I don't need a wheel that sustains more than 40mph as range becomes non existent. A wheel capable of 50ish means 40 is safe and thats enough for me, even with a relatively large 3200Wh. And I still have to charge during the big rides 

But yeah there will always be riders who want the fastest wheel, something to bang on about down the pub. Makes me laugh, theres plenty of people who have done 150mph+ on a motorbike and yet EUC riders get all emotional about doing 50+ 

[Funky]

30 minutes ago, Planemo said:

He's not doing that, he's seeing 70Wh at 40mph. The 55mph was a theoretical number. But I agree with him, sustained 55mph on an EUC will use huge amounts of power, more than they can reasonably carry with current battery tech even if they make the hardware to deal with it.

It's the reason why I think top speeds will plateau. I don't need a wheel that sustains more than 40mph as range becomes non existent. A wheel capable of 50ish means 40 is safe and thats enough for me, even with a relatively large 3200Wh. And I still have to charge during the big rides 

But yeah there will always be riders who want the fastest wheel, something to bang on about down the pub. Makes me laugh, theres plenty of people who have done 150mph+ on a motorbike and yet EUC riders get all emotional about doing 50+ 

Same here, i knew that ks16s would be plenty speed wise for me.. (As on bike, i was going 10-20mph) BUT being 2x normal rider weight.. I needed safety margin, so i bought 18xl. That can go easy 2x speeds i normally ride. Could be lighter with less range.. But there are some pluses, i have to charge once, twice a week. And i never feel tilt back, only "Please slow down" at set alarm. 

[.....]

I purchased a Big wheel, so that I could safely do 75% of its rated top speed, and have zero range anxiety. Pushing top performance out of these chinese wheels is an exercise in excitement and gear safety. Even 75% of stated max, isnt a catch all...

[Ben Kim]

1 hour ago, BecauseFun said:

From Marty last night in Duf's livestream:

"The Master will not be made in a HS version because Gotway has stated that the small motor can't be made to turn faster than the HT version."

Small motor? These things are giant compared to the peashooter motors on Weped and Rion e-scooters that can do 70-75 mph pushing 15kW total output. I don’t think 55 GPS mph on a giant motor wound for speed is far fetched at all. 
 

Marty averages 12-15 mph on his long range rides, I don’t think he is the source you want to quote when discussing theoretical top speed on an EUC. 

[Ben Kim]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

He's not doing that, he's seeing 70Wh at 40mph. The 55mph was a theoretical number. But I agree with him, sustained 55mph on an EUC will use huge amounts of power, more than they can reasonably carry with current battery tech even if they make the hardware to deal with it.

It's the reason why I think top speeds will plateau. I don't need a wheel that sustains more than 40mph as range becomes non existent. A wheel capable of 50ish means 40 is safe and thats enough for me, even with a relatively large 3200Wh. And I still have to charge during the big rides 

But yeah there will always be riders who want the fastest wheel, something to bang on about down the pub. Makes me laugh, theres plenty of people who have done 150mph+ on a motorbike and yet EUC riders get all emotional about doing 50+ 

There are small displacement motorcycles (e.g. honda grom) which have no business being on an interstate, but could if you’re willing to put some money into it. Don’t see why expanding the utility of an EUC with higher top speed is a bad thing. 

[Planemo]

12 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

There are small displacement motorcycles (e.g. honda grom) which have no business being on an interstate, but could if you’re willing to put some money into it. Don’t see why expanding the utility of an EUC with higher top speed is a bad thing. 

Your analogy doesn't work. It would be like a Honda Grom having a fuel tank capacity that only gives 30 miles at full speed. I am sure someone would still buy it, but it's usefulness is severely hindered.

[BecauseFun]

42 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

Small motor? These things are giant compared to the peashooter motors on Weped and Rion e-scooters that can do 70-75 mph pushing 15kW total output. I don’t think 55 GPS mph on a giant motor wound for speed is far fetched at all. 
 

Marty averages 12-15 mph on his long range rides, I don’t think he is the source you want to quote when discussing theoretical top speed on an EUC. 

I don't see how Marty's average reported riding speed has anything to do with a fact he is passing along from Gotway regarding the Master.

You can bring any reasoning you'd like into the discussion, but I think if Gotway says they are not going to release a HS version, it's just not going to happen.

 

@59:40

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by BecauseFun
Added livestream link

[meepmeepmayer]

13 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

Small motor? These things are giant compared to the peashooter motors on Weped and Rion e-scooters that can do 70-75 mph pushing 15kW total output. I don’t think 55 GPS mph on a giant motor wound for speed is far fetched at all.

I interpret this Begode statement as "the motor as we build it today runs into some problem when turning even faster". Maybe the control electronics aren't cut out for it, or the Hall sensors are not "fast" enough, or whatever. I don't think the magnets or coils themselves are the problem.

The difference to a "dumb" scooter motor is that a EUC motor must also be very precise at very low speeds. That probably complicates things a lot. There must be a reason the original Monster Pro and EX motors had a bigger diameter. That scooter motor is probably beginner level construction in comparison. Peashooter indeed.

Anyways, the Master only comes in one version. Given that it's 134V and the other specs, it's going to have a lot of speed and torque.

Edited January 30, 2022 by meepmeepmayer
spelling :o

[alcatraz]

3 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I purchased a Big wheel, so that I could safely do 75% of its rated top speed, and have zero range anxiety. Pushing top performance out of these chinese wheels is an exercise in excitement and gear safety. Even 75% of stated max, isnt a catch all...

Great strategy. For riders seeking to fully utilize their wheels, I fear they will regret it.

[alcatraz]

If you'd try to use a motor from a two wheeled vehicle on an euc you'd probably start off with a face plant. 

Torque is key to avoid faceplanting. I bet those small motors have insane power but very little (or sloppy) torque. I wonder too if they're internally geared. That can extend the rpm range significantly. Unfortunately they're unusable for euc's because of faceplanting risk. Torque delivery must be ensured at all times.

The inertia at speed. Do you think that is what hinders the development of faster motors? Like the motors need to grow in size to maintain torque at those speeds, but the inertia of that larger motor makes for higher torque requirement. Vicious circle.

Edited January 30, 2022 by alcatraz

[Planemo]

11 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

I bet those small motors have insane power but very little (or sloppy) torque.

Power is a derivative of torque, so you can't have insane power without insane RPM or insane torque.

I would think that scooters do indeed have little torque (relative to EUC) but all of it is used for propulsion (hence 60mph+) whereas a huge amount of available torque on EUC's is used just trying to keep upright..

 

[mhpr262]

The torque is not really used almost all of the time but yeah it has to be kept in reserve. I learned to ride on a shitty generic 400W wheel and never had a cutout even tough I weighed 290lbs at the time. Even those tiny wheels have lots of power as long as you dont max them out.

[Planemo]

3 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

The torque is not really used almost all of the time

I would like to see a comparison of current draw for an EUC at say 25mph and a scooter at 25mph. For ref, my old ebike ran a small hub drive and topped out at 27mph with just 250w...

[DavidB]

Interesting comment by Marty on Duf's chat about the HS. I'm not an electronics expert but surely isn't increasing voltage the way to go?

Duf said Begode doesn't test the wheels enough before release. Begode probably think they do. Well they seem to have fun trying. It looks like he should also try Marty's work boots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo246IGTOPU

Edited January 30, 2022 by DavidB
correction

[Bizra6ot]

About the torque do you know if there are other references with real measurements than this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpyHSzmUFRc

 

[Ben Kim]

14 hours ago, Planemo said:

Your analogy doesn't work. It would be like a Honda Grom having a fuel tank capacity that only gives 30 miles at full speed. I am sure someone would still buy it, but it's usefulness is severely hindered.

That isn’t too far from the truth; peg a honda grom with a big bore kit it’ll get crap fuel economy. But there are plenty that do it.

with that said, i heard the polar opposite from a local Gotway dealer, we all want the HS variant here in my area and gotway acknowledged and is researching. I predict we will be seeing it announced a month or two after the HT variant is released.