(New) Gotway " Extreme Bull " Commander leaked datasheet

[div]

The fan is tilted away from the board and the heat sink, blowing onto the bottom curve of the wheel well. Being an axial fan it also doesn’t have much static pressure, which the kinked (small holes, angles) air flow would have needed.. (IMO)

[Eucner]

On 10/12/2021 at 10:17 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

And, we have a teardown!

60 V motor overvolted to 89 V. PC builders will dig that.

[DjPanJan]

Fan in ExBull is +- joke and here is my opinion:

I think fan si here becasue front lights.

That 2 powerfull LED light generate strong/big/extreme heat in "almost" closed space.

Sherman have  2 active Fans not make good job cooling control board anyway ,mutch more important is airflow when ride for sucesfully cooling my sherman V2.

V11 frontlight need cooling too.

Sherman light is realy hot after longer time ON ,and have unlimited airflow and case/box made like cooler.

[DavidB]

I have similar thoughts to DjPanJan.

After looking at Marty's first ride with lights on and EUC Upgrade breakdown. It would appear the only air intake for the control board are some miniscule holes on the bottom outside edges of the headlight housing. There is your problem.

Kuji is a lightweight but he rides hard. Maybe an overheated control board caused his cut-off.

The headlight housing appears separate from the shell halves so maybe a fix is just a simple redesign of a small part where the headlight heat is vented and the air intake for the control board is separated from the air cooling the lights.

Edited October 14, 2021 by DavidB

[meepmeepmayer]

The display says "Begode" on it

[supercurio]

When the headlights are on, will the fan blow air heated by the LEDs onto the board?

The commander heatsink is beefy and should get plenty of airflow from the wheel well however when riding at speed.
You're right @div I recall the teardown and it doesn't get any airflow from anywhere, my bad.
Seems like an obvious design flaw. We know that Shermans which air duct gets obstructed overhead consistently: this is basically the Commander's design  

There's no doubt the controller will handle a  lot of amps to make this heavy wheel responsive.
It's concerning if the High Torque version would run hot.. then imagine the high speed one.

It's speculation for now tho, but this is clearly not promising.
What's pretty bad is the fan noise already. Sherman is a lot better here.

Edited October 14, 2021 by supercurio
Cross wrong statement regarding the heatsink & wheel well.

[div]

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

The commander heatsink is beefy and should get plenty of airflow from the wheel well however when riding at speed.

If it went there yes, but it doesn’t communicate with the well at all.. (Sherman style) 
There is even tape between the shells to avoid water ingress.

Edited October 14, 2021 by div

[Freeforester]

Looks like a contender for a) enlarged front vent ports, and b) an additional or larger, hopefully quieter fan, if space and wiring permits?

[That Guy]

Looks like a contender for getting burnt in Marty's next Overheat Hill test?

Edited October 14, 2021 by That Guy

[Forwardnbak]

11 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The display says "Begode" on it

How did you see anything on THAT display.

[Mango]

On 9/21/2021 at 9:05 AM, Mango said:

This is a poor Sherman clone. I’m going to poo-poo this wheel off the line…

The lift handles don’t look at all comfortable. Those edges are going to dig into your hands carrying something this heavy at 80 lbs. And not to mention durability issues as there is a seam running down the centre of the handles. No lift button like Sherman.

Seals around the charge port need to be close tight otherwise the the ports will be submerged in their own little swimming pool when it rains. Makes more sense for the ports to be in the rear, and have the speakers facing upwards, at the very least with sound directed towards the buttocks and up to your ears than behind it.

The headlights aren’t adjustable and modular. The rear lights aren’t even proper rear lights.

Top speed, nothing new here. High torque version might be a good option for long-range off-road riding, if 8-hour trail riding is your thing.

LCD display is too cluttered and need Gotway app to change settings. How does the display fair in bright sunlight?

So for $500 more than Sherman, you get 12.5% more battery, some $5 LED strips and $10 speakers, and worse ergonomics.

 

And here I was being generous in my praise, but after seeing the teardown, the Commander is even worse than I thought.

The ventilation design is atrocious, I would not feel comfortable pushing this wheel if it's going to overheat and possibly cutout on me. The Sherman did it right. The buzzer is in the worst possible location, unless Gotway engineers think humans have ears on the sides of their feet. Headlamp replacement are likely after a crash since there is no crash bar, and replacement requires removal of the control board. WTF? I heard the pedals are crap, but we'll see. Gotway keeps delivering the goods. Since I own a Sherman, I see little point in shelling out another $5,000 CDN for a 3600wh wheel that climbs hills well, but otherwise is a terrible wheel in every other aspect.

I see this mod for the overheat issue coming soon... 

 

[Paul A]

There would be people who don't read forums like this, and buy a Commander, unaware of such serious safety design flaws.

Do distributors have a duty of care to not stock or sell products that they know to very likely fail at a low threshold?

Self interest alone would be a good reason, to not have to deal with warranty claims, associated costs, extremely annoyed customers, etc.

 

Seems farcical that after so many years of manufacturing experience, such simple, obvious design flaws need to be discovered and pointed out by others.

Seems the new name badge Extreme Bull is an attempt to disassociate from the well deserved Gotway/Begode reputation of poor quality, poor safety.

 

Normal riding in countries with a warm climate might be enough for a cutout, let alone pushing a wheel to higher performance.

[Planemo]

Hmm...tbf, any reasonable spill on a sherman is likely to damage/break the front/rear lights as well as the top cover/shell despite the roll bar being present (which also get mangled to boot). This exact scenario happened to a sherman I replaced the bms on recently. So its not like the roll bar really does much imo, it simply isnt strong enough to contain the weight of a tumbling sherman. It is however perfect for attaching a seat/accessories.

I do however agree with the concerns over the Commanders cooling. The inlet/outlet ports appear woefully small. Truth be told I would like to see larger ones even on the Sherman. That said, until further testing is done on the Commander I am not sure I can pass judgement.

One thing is for sure, cramming 3600Wh into a Sherman form factor peaks my interest. The Monster is just too big for riders like myself so the Commander has potential to be a winner on this front. And as has been said, having the torque option really does fill a gap for those who want Monster range, Sherman form factor and MSP HT torque.

I will also reserve judgement on the Commander buzzer, yes its in a daft place but the design itself could potentially be very loud, possibly even louder than a Sherman by the time it reaches the riders ears.

But in all, yes I can see some cooling mods being done on the Commander with the careful applications of Mr Dremel and Mrs Drill!

[DavidB]

Despite ECU Upgrade emphasising replacing the headlights or speakers will require disassembling everything, the housings look like separate units that may be removable without splitting the shell halves. If not, drilling a hole between the lights towards the top of the light housing may be a simple fix for ventilation. In fact, if you look closely at an image posted here earlier it does seem to have an air vent there. Somewhere between design and production it was left out

Edited October 16, 2021 by DavidB

[Paradox]

@Marty Backe  Waiting on the test results!  I know it wasn't overheat hill but an incline none the less.  Did it pass the test!

[mike_bike_kite]

I particularly like how they produce a wheel aimed for speed and distance and then remove the rear lights (a legal requirement in most countries) and replace them with 2 easily damaged speakers. 

[Planemo]

15 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I particularly like how they produce a wheel aimed for speed and distance and then remove the rear lights (a legal requirement in most countries) and replace them with 2 easily damaged speakers. 

It has 2 LED strips on the back doesn't it?

[AtlasP]

14 minutes ago, Planemo said:

It has 2 LED strips on the back doesn't it?

Whether the best lights on some EUCs would even qualify by any stretch of the legal requirements is debatable and likely varies by jurisdiction and the mood of the particular officer, but certainly those narrow and dim little strips behind black plastic which have reduced viewing angles and are even lower than the top of our already low wheels don't stand a chance.

Edited October 17, 2021 by AtlasP

[Planemo]

The point I was making was in response to Mike saying there weren't any lights. The brightness/effectiveness of them is another conversation. As for legality, it's irrelevant over here anyway. You could put a 500w red spotlight on the back and it would still be illegal 

In any event, I would say two LED strips are more noticeable than a static rear light, especially if it's anything like the Sherman which is incredibly dim (although it does make the brake light seem pretty bright, which I find really handy when group riding).

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

It has 2 LED strips on the back doesn't it?

I actually didn't notice them, hopefully drivers will be more attentive than me  

[Planemo]

1 minute ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I actually didn't notice them, hopefully drivers will be more attentive than me  

I think you have already put yourself forward for surrendering your driving licence 

[That Guy]

 

[That Guy]

...also, thoughts on the latest Marty's attempt to ride to the Overheat Hill?...

I don't understand electronics and it is hard for me to understand whether temperatures of say, 75 degrees C (167F) are "too high" for any electronic board or some of them can be made to successfully and permanently withstand them? Is this design completely flawed and Commander is a dangerous/stupid purchase?

[Paradox]

Here is Marty's test.

 

 

[RagingGrandpa]

75°C is a normal operating temperature for many electronic components, and is not harmful.
The power capacitors, for example, have their ratings clearly printed on the part: 105°C for my Gotway controllers, for example.
The MOSFETs are rated to 175°C (!).

The only practical concern Marty raised was "if it was hotter outside." You should expect that the air-cooled controller will rise in temperature nearly identically to the outdoor temperature, so if Marty made the trip on a 5°C hotter day, he we have hit 80°C board temp and would have alarms and tiltback.

 

42 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Is this [electrical] design completely flawed

Of course not.
And it's not a new design  
It's the same control board type, voltage, and motor that have proven relatively durable in countless Gotways before.

Commander's "issue" is lack of airflow to its heatsink; not its electrical design.
Thankfully, as Marty said, we can increase airflow through simple modification of the shell plastics.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by RagingGrandpa