(New) Gotway " Extreme Bull " Commander leaked datasheet

[eucVibes]

Check out the Splyce Guard, just what the Commander needed !

 

[DavidB]

Supercurio said    "... when comparing what Leaperkim came up with the Abrams "

Looking through Wrongway's video of the Reccio Wheel last summer I noted Adam said Reccio was in talks with a Chinese company about producing it.

It is interesting that LeaperKim later release a wheel that has a diverging tube chassis joined at the bottom by a solid steel bar to which the motor is attached with motor power wires easily detachable external of the control box, easily removable batteries and plug and play headlight etc. All of these features that the Reccio wheel had.

Maybe the guys at LeaperKim just saw Rober Ace's video of the Reccio wheel and said "Hey, that's not a bad idea, let's see what we can do"

But saying what Leaperkim came up with may be giving them more credit than they deserve......

The Reccio looked like a light, fun, off-road wheel... The Abrams is more of a Juggernaut.

Edited November 12, 2021 by DavidB
addition

[DavidB]

6 hours ago, eucVibes said:

Check out the Splyce Guard, just what the Commander needed !

 

What another 10% extra weight ? Small rubber bumpers on the corners would be lighter and more elegant.

I'd go the other way, swap out the 7.3A 21700 for some 15A 18650. Trading the 3600Wh for ~2400Wh and 5kg less weight and thinner side panels.

I think EB should give customers the option on batteries. Not just size but also quality. I'm sure there are many non American customers who would like to have the  eWheels LiTech battery pack. Although that may be exclusive to Jason and if GW/EB offered it to others they may get offside with their largest distributor.

Norwegians are not happy I hear with their Chinese Teslas and their LFP batteries which don't handle the cold very well whereas Australians will feel a lot more comfortable (safe) in their Chinese LFP Teslas this summer sitting in a traffic jam on a 43 degree C day over 60 degree tarmac.

Horses for courses

 

[That Guy]

17 minutes ago, DavidB said:

Looking through Wrongway's video of the Reccio Wheel last summer I noted Adam said Reccio was in talks with a Chinese company about producing it.

Oh, good pick! I did have an impression I have seen the Abrams’ exoskeleton concept once before in some video from some European place. Well, good on LeaperKim if it’s true and they indeed managed to build it from the idea up! :-) (We are yet to see, of course, if Abrams as good as it looks, but just by the look it is an impressive piece.)

Meanwhile didn’t Extreme Bull had Sherman for at least a year to learn? Ok, they did manage to beat Sherman in torque, which is good but not enough. I would expect to see much more than that. I was quite excited about Commander at first and thought I wouldn’t mind ordering it. But from what I am learning so far - sadly no, can’t risk it…

[DavidB]

I actually don't mind them copying off each other if it improves the product. It may grate a bit if you have your idea ripped off but it is inevitable really if it is a good one and you can't afford a good lawyer.

[Tawpie]

8 hours ago, DavidB said:

The Abrams is more of a Juggernaut

just like its namesake!

[div]

8 hours ago, DavidB said:

Reccio Wheel

Veteran introduced the whole roll bar / dual handle concept in the first place though, all Reccio did was to taper the shape to expose more of the tyre.

To me Veteran is simply continuing what they started with the Sherman.

[DavidB]

On 11/13/2021 at 12:37 AM, div said:

Veteran introduced the whole roll bar / dual handle concept in the first place though, all Reccio did was to taper the shape to expose more of the tyre.

To me Veteran is simply continuing what they started with the Sherman.

No, Veteran added a roll cage to a plastic shell. It still basically a plastic shell bolted to the pedal hangers. Reccio went the next step and used  metal tube and steel cross bar as the chassis. I'm sure he got inspiration from the Veteran though.

[yoos]

Here's a fresh teardown of the Commander HS by ecodrift

Long story short:
it's a Begode wheel through and through: standard C30 begode motor, the current begode controller and Begode 900Wh LG M50LT packs. Questionable design solutions and poor QC.

The controller died during a photoshoot, well before teardown. There is a dangerous leftover soldering debris almost shorting two FETs. Waterproofing of the batteries is flawed (hole in one of the wraps and a general design flaw: wires enter from above and have fiberglass sleeving. Water can enter through the sleeving.) Some other questionable parts are bad cooling setup (already fixed by Marty iirc), insufficient (just one spot) soldering at the axle, insufficient soldering at the junction between phase wires and board; all wires come into the motor through the axle from one side, hence the hole in the axle is rather wide and the axle strength might be compromised.

Edit: and here's the video

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by yoos

[RagingGrandpa]

Good to see the guts.

I've been asking myself: "Would I recommend Commander HT to a friend who owns a Sherman, likes to ride 70mi+ distances on flat pavement, doesn't exceed 35mph, and wants more torque?" A rather specific type of rider, I realize.

From the teardown, the only new-wheel unacceptable thing I see is: pedals without griptape or functional studs. Annoying, but easy to swap or mod.

As widely reported, cooling isn't great... but for non-mountainous terrain and the C38 HT model, it's enough.

So I suppose the answer is 'Yes' for the HT model? Wish there was more to get excited about here.
 

C30 HS, on the other hand, is just a terrible idea for a wheel with so little cooling. If you're looking to sustain speeds that are too fast for the HT motor, the HS model will overheat. Why bother.

Interesting that there hasn't been a successful 3600wh HS wheel yet. No stock wheel can take a 200lb rider further than Sherman, faster than Sherman.

.02

3 hours ago, yoos said:

teardown of the Commander by ecodrift

Edited December 5, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[Bumblebees]

2 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

As widely reported, cooling isn't great... but for non-mountainous terrain and the C38 HT model, it's enough.

I have the HT model and hit mountainous terrain regularly without any overheating.  The wheel temperature is usually around 44-51 riding up and down inclines.  Only issue I have with the wheel is the slippery pedals and handle screws which tend to come undone from frequent use.  

[meepmeepmayer]

Oh boy. Looks like it is a nice wheel in theory, but not in practice.

4 hours ago, yoos said:

LG M50LT

Are these a fire danger, or different from the M50T that caused the fires?

[RagingGrandpa]

Well, let's be frank about what we know

12 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Are these a fire danger

Yes, all Nickel-Cobalt Lithium Ion cells are a hazard, because they can reach a runaway temperature at which they will burn unstoppably until their contents are consumed.

12 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

different from the M50T

Yes, this is different from the M50T.

M50LT is a newer-design 21700 LG cell.

12 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

that caused the fires

We don't know what caused the previous Gotway pack fires. Evidence of root cause has not been found yet. But I understand your point... M50T was involved in most of them.

Let's monitor the new M50LT (and 48X and 50E and P42A) wheels as their volumes increase over time, hoping to see lower incidence rate.

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[bracky72]

Jason specifically states the M50LT 900 wh is the battery pack being recalled. It is the suspect cell. Not the M50T. 

[RagingGrandpa]

32 minutes ago, bracky72 said:

Jason specifically states the M50LT

It was a misunderstanding at the time of his post.

The issue at hand is the 900wh pack type introduced in early 2020 with 100V Nikola and MSuper Pro. Those suspicious cells are branded LG and start with M... but they're not the same as M50LT which started shipping just recently in late 2021 (with no reported fires yet).

 

32 minutes ago, bracky72 said:

the battery pack being recalled

There is no recall yet. Perhaps one will come...

  

On 11/10/2021 at 10:43 AM, RagingGrandpa said:

As we scrutinize cells, it will be important to keep the product names straight. There are 3 LG cell models being conflated- they are not the same.

Edited December 6, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[bracky72]

So you are saying the information in this thread is incorrect?

 

 

[yoos]

8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Are these a fire danger, or different from the M50T that caused the fires?

At least there are 4 such packs vs 2 packs in the Nik and RS and 3 packs in the Ex.N and Nik 2700Wh (mostly known as Nik AR in the US). This should reduce the risk of abuse due to excessive current draw, but increase the risk of other problems that prompted the recall  

So roughly speaking the Commander is an "EX.N AR": an EX.N with extra battery pack and diguised by a different shell and logo. Of course, the controller also has different firmware but otherwise it's mostly cosmetic changes and rebranding. At the same time the EX.N is already an impressive beast performance-wise, so the Commander should be king performance-wise (with all the typical strengths and weaknesses of the Gotway/Begode wheel dynasty).

[houseofjob]

21 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Yes, this is different from the M50T.

M50LT is a newer-design 21700 LG cell.

I believe the LT or T designations are which factory they are being made in, not necessarily whether they are new or older versions of the cell (although they can be). 

So for M50T, T = Tianjin, so it is the M50 cell being made in Tianjin China. I can't find where the LT designation stands for unfortunately (guessing another area of China).

 

Because of the supply crunch / lockdowns etc, many of the major battery manufacturers have been setting up alternative factories (usually China) to make the same model cells they do in their main factories (ie. the recent appearance of China-made Panasonic GA's). This is probably why all the China-based EUC factories are defaulting to the M50LT cell, because they are easier to source from where they are located.

 

AFAICS, there doesn't seem to be a uniform way these battery makers designate updated revisions of cell chemistry to the same model cell, only minor changes like to the cell wrapper or changes in crimp rings etc.

Edited December 7, 2021 by houseofjob

[Patrick Robert]

If the following is correct, the M50LT is just a longer life-cycle version of the M50T (1000 instead of 500 charge cycles). 

But it has the same inferior 7.3A discharge rate as the M50T. 

I guess 'L' stands for "longer life-cycle". 

https://www.illumn.com/21700-lg-inr21700m50lt-5000mah-high-discharge-flat-top.html

Edited December 7, 2021 by Patrick Robert

[DjPanJan]

Then is important say @Marty Backe Comander is SPECIAL UNIT not serial product and test he make is not fully representive for "normal" buyers outside USA/Ewheels.

Nobody know if he can make same range(great) and same overheat hill results(great) with "chinse/orginal" battery packs.

 

 

 

 

 

[YCC]

I couldn’t  find any information  pertaining to Commander. There is no official website and introduction of the product. Is the Commander still in production? 

[Esash]

8 minutes ago, YCC said:

I couldn’t  find any information  pertaining to Commander. There is no official website and introduction of the product. Is the Commander still in production? 

I don't know but they're on sale for crazy low price on Alien Rides right now. 2400 for high speed version, 2200 dollars for high torque version.

[meepmeepmayer]

DAMN $2200 for a 3600Wh wheel (the better version, HT) It's not like it got any worse over time. No suspension but great otherwise.

Buy one plus a replacement board to be future-proof, and done!

I wonder if it's so cheap because everyone wants suspension nowadays...

[meepmeepmayer]

Cheapest I can find in Europe is 3000€ (instead of the usual reduced price of about 3500-3600) at eucsale.com.

[Esash]

58 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Cheapest I can find in Europe is 3000€ (instead of the usual reduced price of about 3500-3600) at eucsale.com.

They had the EX20S on sale too for like 2500 or 2800 or something crazy. Those sold out first.

So lack of suspension isn't why the Commander is on sale so steep, but lack of suspension is the reason they haven't sold out yet.

https://alienrides.com/collections/electric-unicycles