Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Elliott Reitz]

 

This is the 1st production model S20 auctioned by Alien Rides for Ukraine refugees. I removed its fender, replaced its shock-spring with 350 lbs, made the roller mod, and pinned the stator.  I have a gun-seat for it but for today, it was great to have a real knobby!  

 

 

[novazeus]

well i've determined today that no euc(haven't tried a sherman s and don't have the v13 yet) will work in my pastures. it's like trying to ride thru a minefield but instead of mines, there's huge dried out cow turds buried/hidden in the grass. those will make u go airborne. the rest of the time is like riding on a washboard. worse now with less cows because thankfully i have some grass out there now. 

hopefully the minibike with big balloon tires will arrive this week. i've used those before and for surveillance and conserving energy, they are the best. 

course this s22 absolutely sucks with the stock suspension. by the time i traveled a half mile in the pasture, the suspension was locked. came back and flushed the rails with wd-40 and followed up with wd-40 dry lube, and got some suspension back. fine for irregularities in pavement but nothing works very well in the pasture. i was gasping for air after a half mile today. had to do a kickoff run off when it launched me. doing better that way with the spiked pedals. 

i'll not try riding a wheel ever again in the pasture. too much work to build a trail out there. cheaper to use a big tire mini bike.

[FunTech4Real]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

well i've determined today that no euc(haven't tried a sherman s and don't have the v13 yet) will work in my pastures. it's like trying to ride thru a minefield but instead of mines, there's huge dried out cow turds buried/hidden in the grass. those will make u go airborne. the rest of the time is like riding on a washboard. worse now with less cows because thankfully i have some grass out there now. 

hopefully the minibike with big balloon tires will arrive this week. i've used those before and for surveillance and conserving energy, they are the best. 

course this s22 absolutely sucks with the stock suspension. by the time i traveled a half mile in the pasture, the suspension was locked. came back and flushed the rails with wd-40 and followed up with wd-40 dry lube, and got some suspension back. fine for irregularities in pavement but nothing works very well in the pasture. i was gasping for air after a half mile today. had to do a kickoff run off when it launched me. doing better that way with the spiked pedals. 

i'll not try riding a wheel ever again in the pasture. too much work to build a trail out there. cheaper to use a big tire mini bike.

The S22 with upgraded sliders has incredible suspension... if you have yet to try it then you have no idea what your missing out on. I can ride it seated over big roots on mountain bike trails at 15 MPH

[novazeus]

9 minutes ago, YourAubsome said:

The S22 with upgraded sliders has incredible suspension... if you have yet to try it then you have no idea what your missing out on. I can ride it seated over big roots on mountain bike trails at 15 MPH

i hope so! today was worse than a couple of days ago because i didn't lube the stock sliders and it was literally locked after a mile in my pasture. i had to trolley it back to where i have wheel ruts i've made with my backhoe and tractor. 

did u also change the bolts in the back like @Marty Backe suggests? i figured i'd do it all, tire, sliders, and bolts when the parts get here.

i'd much rather use a wheel for surveillance than the minibike because i'm not sitting and standing is better visibility like if ur looking for a calf. 

the s18's suspension is much better but it's pathetically weak.

probably burn it up trying to climb over a cow turd.

Edited February 27, 2023 by novazeus

[litewave]

6 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

 

This is the 1st production model S20 auctioned by Alien Rides for Ukraine refugees. I removed its fender, replaced its shock-spring with 350 lbs, made the roller mod, and pinned the stator.  I have a gun-seat for it but for today, it was great to have a real knobby!  

 

 

 

Unfortunately, it was very difficult to hear your commentary due to wind noise. Would you consider replacing the audio track with a voice over? I would really like to hear your opinion on the tire, thanks.

[litewave]

3 hours ago, YourAubsome said:

The S22 with upgraded sliders has incredible suspension... if you have yet to try it then you have no idea what your missing out on. I can ride it seated over big roots on mountain bike trails at 15 MPH

Are the sliders you refer to:

1. the KS v.1 set that had defects and required 4 of the 8 wheels per rail to be removed?

2. the aftermarket sliders from the EUC company in Romania or other nearby country?

3. the eWheels Hon Hou custom sliders?

[Crab]

Hill climb with my buddy Randy on the S22.

[Crab]

Hoping to do the trail east to Carnation and back this spring after it warms up and drys out, like 12 miles each way.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Crab

[MetricUSA]

Sadly, alien rides still has no roller slides, and my ks22 is still and will be apart until I get a slider set in, apparently everyone but alien rides has the damn slides!!! The winter has been dry here, I could be riding with damn thing now... 

PS 3/1/2023 Alien Rides now has ks roller slides for all the people who may bought their wheel from them.... 

novazeus

Posted Sunday at 05:49 PM

well i've determined today that no euc(haven't tried a sherman s and don't have the v13 yet) will work in my pastures.

 

You might want to buy an ATV motorcycle instead.... 

Edited March 2, 2023 by MetricUSA

[novazeus]

2 hours ago, MetricUSA said:

Sadly, alien rides still has no roller slides, and my ks22 is still and will be apart until I get a slider set in, apparently everyone but alien rides has the damn slides!!! The winter has been dry here, I could be riding with damn thing now... 

novazeus

Posted Sunday at 05:49 PM

well i've determined today that no euc(haven't tried a sherman s and don't have the v13 yet) will work in my pastures.

 

You might want to buy an ATV motorcycle instead.... 

i have. a perfectly fine ktm 525exc in storage that i use to use, but because of my prostate cancer, high maintenance, living off grid with difficulties obtaining gasoline without a driver's license, i wanted to use a wheel. but no wheel, no rider would last more than a mile or two in my washboard irregular terrain out here.

cow turds are generally rounded, hard as a rock, unseen and buried in the grass. there's gopher holes, bull holes, and God only knows what other animals burrowing holes out here. 

i literally nosed dived into a hole with my jeep a couple years ago and the rear axle and ass end was in the air. a depression made by heavy rains and created a new sinkhole like depression. i know my 325 acre property like most people know their yards, but with wild and domestic animals, u don't know what is around the corner. it's not trail riding out here, there are no trails, this is the jungle. 

i'll get a helicopter once i sell land. much safer than ground transportation or walking it. i've got alligators, snakes, coyotes, panthers, bears, bald eagles, wild hogs, u name it, all been pushed onto my property by surrounding development. except for the 12 ' alligator that resides in my creek, and the hogs, they are all afraid of me. the alligator isn't.i always have my little model 27 glock with me. i'm an excellent marksman. only entertainment growing up out here.  and of course human trespassers. one evening coming home from out drinking, i had cops all along my property and didn't have my glock on me and there was an escaped convict that was running loose they thought on my property. so i got a cop to go with me, him with his automatic rifle, me with my police 12 gauge 7 round, and my polaris, and we tried to find him. we didn't but living alone thinking there's a desperate criminal loose on ur property, doesn't make u sleep well at night. u get use to it after 69 years. definitely not like living in a neighborhood or apt. i have Bob now. 165 pound anatolian shepherd with a bite force of 743 psi. he could bite a human's arm or leg completely off. unfortunately, Bob loves humans.u should have seen him yesterday greeting the ups driver at my gate. hopefully his attitude will be different if somebody tries to get in our compound. i'm pretty sure it will be. 

definitely not disney world here, this is as real as it gets.

 

 

[anutheroneup]

15 hours ago, MetricUSA said:

...Alien Rides now has ks roller slides for all the people who may bought their wheel from them....

For what it's worth, I can not recommend the KS roller sliders for the S22.  I've had the stock sliders, then the KS roller sliders, and now the Hou Ningning sliders - all from eWheels providing the free upgrades.  The KS roller sliders were so 'sticky' and tight that when I went to replace them, the bottom tire/shock side would not drop out from the top battery case side and I had to use all of my muscle and grit to pull, kick, cuss, etc. to get them apart (it should just fall out once you remove the top and handle screws).  Also an FYI for anyone wanting to replace the KS roller sliders that were installed by KS, their screws holding the sliders on have blue loctite and a couple of them were stripped - making them very difficult to remove.  Also many of the black wheels on the KS sliders just fell off and didn't seem very stable, so I can see why they would get jammed.  Once I did get them off, the Hou sliders were easy to install and work great - and I really like the circlips idea.  I can agree with others who say this is how the wheel should have been at release with the Hou sliders.  There may be other sliders out there that work well too, like MyEWheels or some other 3rd party ones, but after what I went through I never want to see the KS roller sliders again.  To me the KS roller sliders were just the same or worse than the stock sliders, as they had the same amount of resistance and would even stick sometimes.  Hopefully the KS sliders that will come with the Pro model will work better and not have the same issues that mine did for the OG S22.

[novazeus]

44 minutes ago, anutheroneup said:

For what it's worth, I can not recommend the KS roller sliders for the S22.  I've had the stock sliders, then the KS roller sliders, and now the Hou Ningning sliders - all from eWheels providing the free upgrades.  The KS roller sliders were so 'sticky' and tight that when I went to replace them, the bottom tire/shock side would not drop out from the top battery case side and I had to use all of my muscle and grit to pull, kick, cuss, etc. to get them apart (it should just fall out once you remove the top and handle screws).  Also an FYI for anyone wanting to replace the KS roller sliders that were installed by KS, their screws holding the sliders on have blue loctite and a couple of them were stripped - making them very difficult to remove.  Also many of the black wheels on the KS sliders just fell off and didn't seem very stable, so I can see why they would get jammed.  Once I did get them off, the Hou sliders were easy to install and work great - and I really like the circlips idea.  I can agree with others who say this is how the wheel should have been at release with the Hou sliders.  There may be other sliders out there that work well too, like MyEWheels or some other 3rd party ones, but after what I went through I never want to see the KS roller sliders again.  To me the KS roller sliders were just the same or worse than the stock sliders, as they had the same amount of resistance and would even stick sometimes.  Hopefully the KS sliders that will come with the Pro model will work better and not have the same issues that mine did for the OG S22.

please excuse my ignorance, but i'm use to working off blueprints or schematics and all i can see with taking the wheel apart are the channels and black things that go in the channel. i have no idea what the are made of, the durometer or hardness of them, how they are mounted, etc etc.

would shaving the stock sliders edges down to create slop, make the stock sliders move freely?

why is such a tight tolerance needed?

like, wtf is causing the stock sliders to bind once the king song glue is washed out?

would just a machined piece of nylon work better?

if king song can't figure this out, i wish they'd send me stock sliders and their channels, or a mock up of their channels and i bet i can come up with a solution. i hate to start a project half assed. i'll ve pissed if i get their replacement sliders, take the wheel apart and see that their shit won't work. now i have a piece of junk taking up space and i'm scrambling around to find parts so i can fix their screw up.

king song needs to get the head into the game. the wheel is pretty good otherwise, but it's killing my feet and knees and lubing it, flipping it upside down, lubricant everywhere, it's a mess. when the v13 gets here, i'm parking it until i know my time and efforts won't be wasted on a half ass remedy.

Edited March 2, 2023 by novazeus

[redfoxdude]

Introducing slop would likely cause issues with the balancing algorithm unfortunately. It would mistake the slop for a tilt of the chassis and try to make the small adjustment required to re-level out the pedals, leading to harsh oscillations as the wheel tries to maintain a steady control it cannot achieve with the slop. A dead-zone would be required to prevent this, so that it could just ignore the slop and not attempt to balance it out, like how some Masters were behaving. I personally don't like that feeling of slop in the balancing - it's kind of disconcerting to me, but some acclimate to it just fine.

Part of the issue with the design is that the linkage places the spring force from the shock off-center of the slider frame. This applies a torque to the slider frame, which makes it want to rotate in addition to the linear motion. Unfortunately, this increases the normal force of the sliders in the channels - pressing them harder into the sides of the channels increases the friction force. This could possibly be reduced with a slider material possessing a lower coefficient of friction (which I suspect the original prototype may have had, before mass production tweaks?), or with the roller mod.

Unfortunately, King Song's retrofit version (not the new Pro version, requiring battery boxes) really is terrible. I spent a couple hours trying my best to get them working well, but nothing worked. It's as if they designed it for smaller wheels and then slapped bigger ones in the kit. The fit was just so tight. The Hou Ningning sliders however, they are absolutely fantastic.
 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by redfoxdude

[novazeus]

18 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

Introducing slop would likely cause issues with the balancing algorithm unfortunately. It would mistake the slop for a tilt of the chassis and try to make the small adjustment required to re-level out the pedals, leading to harsh oscillations as the wheel tries to maintain a steady control it cannot achieve with the slop. A dead-zone would be required to prevent this, so that it could just ignore the slop and not attempt to balance it out, like how some Masters were behaving. I personally don't like that feeling of slop in the balancing - it's kind of disconcerting to me, but some acclimate to it just fine.

Part of the issue with the design is that the linkage places the spring force from the shock off-center of the slider frame. This applies a torque to the slider frame, which makes it want to rotate in addition to the linear motion. Unfortunately, this increases the normal force of the sliders in the channels - pressing them harder into the sides of the channels increases the friction force. This could possibly be reduced with a slider material possessing a lower coefficient of friction (which I suspect the original prototype may have had, before mass production tweaks?), or with the roller mod.

thanks for that. by slop, i'm talking like a polishing , like with a linen belt. then grahite coating to the channels, not a mm, just  c hair. 

and i have no idea how the linkage in the back is suppose to work, i just know whatever they did, doesn't work and i refuse to pay hundreds of dollars for aftermarket parts to fix their screw up, and not even know if i'll be satisfied with the end product. i'll sell the wheel to a hobbyist that wants to experiment. life is too short and i have more important stuff to do. like play with Bob. Bob is already pissed at me for spending time riding these stupid things. i mean for crying out loud, this is their gig. they aren't building a spaceship to mars.

easier to list the things i like about the wheel than list what is a waste.

the display is a waste, the pads are a waste, the tire should have a round profile, as in synetrical street tire option, like a motorcycle, the trolley handle sucks with no lock in the trolley position, the charge ports next to the power button is idiotic, the caps on the charge ports are already disintegrating and almost impossible to open, the suspension sucks all around, they can keep the seat too, if i wanted to ride seated, i'd ride my motorcycles, my battery packs haven't been balanced since new.still hate the spiked pedals and the pads they sent were a wasted effort. 

what i like about it, it's the strongest wheel to date for me, the kickstand is nice, the headlights are decent, and it hasn't burst into flames yet. i like that the pedals were adjustable down and forward. my motor was pinned supposedly. 

not insurmountable objectives if they tried.

Edited March 2, 2023 by novazeus

[novazeus]

40 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

Introducing slop would likely cause issues with the balancing algorithm unfortunately. It would mistake the slop for a tilt of the chassis and try to make the small adjustment required to re-level out the pedals, leading to harsh oscillations as the wheel tries to maintain a steady control it cannot achieve with the slop. A dead-zone would be required to prevent this, so that it could just ignore the slop and not attempt to balance it out, like how some Masters were behaving. I personally don't like that feeling of slop in the balancing - it's kind of disconcerting to me, but some acclimate to it just fine.

Part of the issue with the design is that the linkage places the spring force from the shock off-center of the slider frame. This applies a torque to the slider frame, which makes it want to rotate in addition to the linear motion. Unfortunately, this increases the normal force of the sliders in the channels - pressing them harder into the sides of the channels increases the friction force. This could possibly be reduced with a slider material possessing a lower coefficient of friction (which I suspect the original prototype may have had, before mass production tweaks?), or with the roller mod.

Unfortunately, King Song's retrofit version (not the new Pro version, requiring battery boxes) really is terrible. I spent a couple hours trying my best to get them working well, but nothing worked. It's as if they designed it for smaller wheels and then slapped bigger ones in the kit. The fit was just so tight. The Hou Ningning sliders however, they are absolutely fantastic.
 

 

thanks for the video. yeah, i'd be going beserk if i wasted my time and that's how their junk fit. and we don't know how long the aftermarket will last. i have fine myakka sand that will permeate bearings, i know because i had to clean bearings twice a week when i inlined skated 140 miles a week. bearings don't like sand. 

i'll see what freemotion sends me and if i don't like the parts, i'll pack it all up and sell it. the s18 is a fine little weak sidewalk multiuse path wheel that just needs the michelin street pilot 2 on it. fix it's floppy pedals. might upgrade to aftermaket larger longer non spiked pedals, and hopefully i'll like the v13.

[Paul A]

Are temperature variances, causing metal to expand/contract, also going to affect the clearances of the slider wheels within the channels?

[chanman]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but the KS rollers I received were actually just straight up 24.3 mm, which is I think a huge part of why they are so sticky, they actually get compressed to go in the channel. Using the white wheels that the other sliders use (which are more accurately 24.0 mm and seem to be stronger material) made them immediately much better. If you aren't able to get one of the other kits it's an easy fix and makes a huge difference. I haven't compared with the other sliders but the stiction is very low with these.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832581978393.html

Edited March 2, 2023 by chanman

[Rawnei]

Seems like KS made the sliders for the Pro which have different dimensions on the battery channels then retrofitted the same design for the Non-Pro but screwed something up in that process and did not test them well enough, that is my best guess how they could screw this up so badly.

[PourUC]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

And i have no idea how the linkage in the back is suppose to work, i just know whatever they did, doesn't work 

The linkage is fine. The issue is entirely the stock slider. I've had some CNC bearings sliders for a couple months now. The travel is perfect and I get full range of motion from the shock. 

 

What issue are you experiencing with the linkage?

[Tawpie]

13 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Seems like KS made the sliders for the Pro which have different dimensions on the battery channels then retrofitted the same design for the Non-Pro but screwed something up in that process and did not test them well enough, that is my best guess how they could screw this up so badly.

Here's my guess: the KS MechEs did a quick analysis of the Alexandar (name is wrong I'm certain, but close) design and decided that the member holding the little wheels was too thin. So they went thicker but in order to do that they had to order new battery boxes (which takes time). Meantime, the 8 wheeled version reduced the stress on each wheel and its mount so that was a good thing and was adopted. Then somebody either had trouble getting good POM wheels or found a bargain on the black ones and slipped a change in—and ordered a truckload of the black wheels. The 'testing' happened over a couple of days and the result was better than the glued-in plastic blocks so it became a "ship it" decision... the new motors are here and we can't have another warehouse full of nearly finished product waiting for better slider wheels.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Tawpie

[mrelwood]

WhileI haven’t or won’t own an S18 nor the S22, it’s sad to see that KS failed with the slider system for the third time already (S18, S22 original, S22 rollers). We need good suspension systems to make the designs evolve.
 

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

would shaving the stock sliders edges down to create slop, make the stock sliders move freely?

Only occasionally. If you accelerate or brake, you create a twisting motion that multiplies the friction. And like was mentioned, the suspension action itself does as well.

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

why is such a tight tolerance needed?

Play is not welcome due to the mentioned balancing algorithm and ride feel. You like to ride in a hard mode, a play in the suspension rails would make it like a sloppy medium/soft mode. A sliding system will unavoidably wear, and the play will increase. V13 suspension is one of the few that can be adjusted to counter the wear.

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

like, wtf is causing the stock sliders to bind once the king song glue is washed out?

The mentioned twisting forces.

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

would just a machined piece of nylon work better?

Probably. My experiments with the V11 suspension slider guides have taught me that Nylon is already better than the original POM (S22 also uses POM). I’ve been running on printed Nylon guides for a long time already. For seriously good sliding properties though, nothing comes even close to Teflon (PTFE). Unfortunately it’s a soft material and wears out very fast.

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

i bet i can come up with a solution.

Your solution would very unlikely match a well made rollers-on-bearings system. Unless you used similar rollers of course.

[mrelwood]

16 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Seems like KS made the sliders for the Pro which have different dimensions on the battery channels

I’ve seen it mentioned that the channel groove itself has the exact same measures on the Pro, only the opening is wider.

[fbhb]

3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I’ve seen it mentioned that the channel groove itself has the exact same measures on the Pro, only the opening is wider.

100% Correct.

[novazeus]

6 hours ago, PourUC said:

The linkage is fine. The issue is entirely the stock slider. I've had some CNC bearings sliders for a couple months now. The travel is perfect and I get full range of motion from the shock. 

 

What issue are you experiencing with the linkage?

that's good to know. i guess u figured that out by disassembling urs. but i have no idea. i'm not an engineer, i didn't go to college and learn about these things. i'm just a field grunt that's been fixing things in the field that the college educated engineers have screwed up, just like my terminal cancer that the doctors only offered me hospice for 9 years ago. 

fixing their screw up isn't my responsibility. my only business responsibility before i eventually die is selling off this 325 acres for the highest possible price, which will be in excess of $100 mil or so. fixing a $2600 toy isn't my top priority with the limited amount of time i have left above ground. 

if i had a subcontractor that did work like king song, after bitching them out for insulting my intelligence, i'd then fire them. 

my first real full time job from age 19-24 was with diebold inc. the stuff they built wasn't perfect always either. but it was up to me to make it work in the field. diebold sent an engineer from canton ohio to shadow me to see what i was doing. 

this is how stuff gets created in real life. tom krumplestader, award winning architect for arthur rutenberg homes, designed what would later be a home that won 8 national awards. i built that one. so tom had designed these stucco bands on the outside that were attractive but no directions on how to do it. so i called tom and said, "hey, i like ur design, but how is the stucco man suppose to build it?" he laughed and said,"i'm just the architect, ur the builder, u have to figure it out". unbelievable!

i did, and other builders started copying tom's design, but couldn't figure out how i did it. that's just life 101. 

again, i'm no mechanical engineer but i know king song's attempt to build a suspension wheel failed miserably. i know i can fix it because i have a lifetime of fixing engineers screw ups, but i got paid lots of money to do that. i don't want or need king song's money to fix their screw up. like i said, i'll just sell it to some hobbyist that thinks he has more time above ground than me, or thinks his time is worth nothing. i'd rather play with Bob than do anything. our time is in dog years at this stage. one year equals 7. and Bob just turned 6 last november. 

not my job to figure out why king song are lazy idiots and refuse to fix their product. 

i'm taking this time to write this in hopes somebody at king song will read it and get their heads in the game. 

i sued ford motor company in 1999 because their hand built 320hp svt cobra mustang engine didn't produce 320hp like they said it would. they recalled all 8600 of them and removed and ported and polished the manifolds. idk if it worked or not, i never dynoed it after the recall, but i know beforehand it only produced 290hp. 

the damage had already been done because my "special" mustang which i paid double for compared to a stock mustang, wasn't that special afterall. 

like i've said, "not my job to fix king song's failed attempt to fix the suspension on their expensive toy".

it would be like trying to fix ur kid's hoverboard. u just wouldn't waste ur time, u would just find some place to dispose of it without burning down ur house. 

i'll wait and see what freemotion sends me from king song, do what analysis what i can without wasting much of my irreplaceable time, and if it's stupid, like it probably will be, i'll pack it all up and sell this "kit" to somebody that likes to tinker. 

i use to like to tinker too, why i built rc helis for members of the world team manager. figuring out how to make the gv1 governor to work with futaba's top of the line transmitter, the 9z, when futaba couldn't figure it out, was fun and rewarding. and again, i have zero formal education in electronics, but i am able to extract information from humans that do, and assemble a solution. 

again, kinda like my terminal cancer that is still killing over ten million humans yearly. 

kinda got bigger fish to fry. i can't fix dead. 

i mean what would be ur priorities? this is from july 2014.

 

 

ps

i know somebody at king song reads this stuff because years ago when i kept insulting them about my first wheel ever, the 18s, and forum members were "why are u so mean to king song?", i knew what i was doing. eventually tina wong contacted me and two late night sessions, we, me, tina and one of their engineers, fixed the bms battery problem on my 18s. i've used this technique of trying to get workers to have pride in their work thousands of times in my lifetime. no exaggeration, i've hired and fired thousands of workers in my lifetime building the most expensive custom homes on the planet. idk how else to do it. if carrots don't work, i don't hesitate to use the stick.

Edited March 2, 2023 by novazeus

[Paul A]

Spoiler

Wouldn't it be better to sell now, not be off grid in a container, suffering heat/cold, crashing from cow souvenirs, etc ...

Do whatever else instead...

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Paul A