Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, chanman said:

I thought it was POM but the order page actually says POM or PA (nylon) so I guess I'm not sure, I see it's split between the black and white ones. But yeah unless somebody's doing some proper materials tests we are just taking it at their word anyway.
 

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832581978393.html

yeah, i bet the white ones are nylon! nylon should work!

[onkeldanuel]

9 hours ago, chanman said:

Kingsong Roller sliders being problematic again, little more annoying this time. Started to feel about the same as stock no rollers, but terrible squeaking noises, found a few broken wheels on one side when I got it apart. I've just replaced them with the white Aliexpress rollers, 4 on each side.

While both claim to be 5x24x7mm sizes, the Kingsong ones are actually around 24.3mm diameter, while the Aliexpress ones are more accurately between 23.9 and 24.0. This gives a looser fit and much less stiction, and nice slide into the frame. I also found all of the Aliexpress wheels to slide or press on nicely, no hammering required, although some were still too loose and needing gluing to the peg (the peg's fault), and that the Aliexpress material seems to be a harder POM while the Kingsong ones are a softer more rubbery material. 

Still need to test durability but I think these are the ones being used in other sliders and seem to make a huge difference in making the kingsong ones behave like they should.

Did you test with only 4 wheels or all 8 per slider withe the White ones? Wonder if its better to use 4 or 8 when i get mine (8-wheel verson from ningning)

[chanman]

9 hours ago, onkeldanuel said:

Did you test with only 4 wheels or all 8 per slider withe the White ones?

I only ordered enough to do 4 on each and a few spares, I knew 8 wasn't necessary and they are nearly $1/piece with shipping on the Aliexpress store. Now that I now the quality is what I expect and if the durability seems good I might order more and try 8.

[mrelwood]

On 2/11/2023 at 4:42 PM, Rawnei said:

PTFE is dry lube, you want grease there to seal the gap, difficult to do without disassembling motor.

There is dry PTFE lube, there is oil with PTFE, and there is PTFE grease. The one that was shown was not dry lube.

 

On 2/17/2023 at 5:25 AM, novazeus said:

never did a tire change on anything.

Get yourself some tire grease and good plastic tire spoons. Without grease there’s up to twenty times more work. Do not use any other grease than special tire mount grease! It must be of a kind that dries up. Dish washing soap works ok as well.

 Only use metallic motorcycle tire irons if you’re ok with scratching the rim and doing the job a few times due to a puncture in the tube.

 

On 2/17/2023 at 5:25 AM, novazeus said:

nylon rollers. never saw one of them fail. ever.

Nylon is incredibly tough! I’ve printed a few Nylon parts. You could drive over them with a damn truck.

[Flying W]

I was using my motorcycle spoons for tire changes and the rim damage inside kept popping tubes. I had to dremmel the damaged areas.

I bought the same ones mrelwood recommended to me and it's been fine ever since.

Even though euc rims have a shallow center dip its still important to get tye bead into the dip when mounting to get enough Bead slack. 

Let the tire grease evaporate before riding,  I've gotten too happy to have my wheel back before and spun rim in the tire ripping off my valve stem before too hahaha

[novazeus]

took the s18 and the s22 out in the pastures today. 

the s18 is too anemic for pasture riding. the s22 will be my pasture wheel. 

both had 35 psi in their tires. i'm gonna try 32 psi tmrw with the s22.

neither one has suspension capable of handling raw pasture and the shit, literally, that goes with it. pasture riding isn't single track, it's zero track. discovered that i'm a better rider than i thought.

i also learned that trying to carry a giant trash bag to my dumpster in the wind was a bad choice. i got about 100' before wind swinging the bag caused me to crash. so naturally, undeterred, i went and got the second heavier trash bag, and held it in front of me and made it to my gate/dumpster.

i think the s18 is better suited for sidewalks and multiuse paths. i might put the michelin street pilot 2 on it instead of the s22 because the knobby actually works pretty good on the s22. i'm definitely ditching the pads. they just get in the way. 

of course the cows and donkeys freaked out, but no casualties. 

i do have tire ruts i've made in one pasture using the backhoe and tractor. that's a pretty nice ride.

[Tawpie]

19 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i also learned that trying to carry a giant trash bag to my dumpster in the wind was a bad choice. i got about 100' before wind swinging the bag caused me to crash. so naturally, undeterred, i went and got the second heavier trash bag, and held it in front of me and made it to my gate/dumpster.

Pro Tip: don't try to sling the bag into the dumpster as you're going by, unless you've practiced a bit. (reported as unwise by a former forum member)

[Flying W]

24 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Pro Tip: don't try to sling the bag into the dumpster as you're going by, unless you've practiced a bit. (reported as unwise by a former forum member)

Guilty haha

[gon2fast]

5 hours ago, novazeus said:

neither one has suspension capable of handling raw pasture and the shit, literally, that goes with it

I ride my S22 in cow/horse fields that are rutted to hell (slowly) where I only see the dirt bike guys. Maybe the feces is the part I am missing here LOL.

[novazeus]

8 hours ago, gon2fast said:

I ride my S22 in cow/horse fields that are rutted to hell (slowly) where I only see the dirt bike guys. Maybe the feces is the part I am missing here LOL.

the cow pies are like jumping curbs but they are sometimes hidden so there's no dodging them. even with suspension wheels and flexed legs, i'm still getting launced. much much better than straight axles though. my pastures are definitely the place to test suspension wheels. idk if i'll even take the v13 out there when it comes. it might break. same for the sherman s, which i'm not getting. i was bottoming out on both king songs. 

haha, yeah i was going slow too. i wasn't trying to emulate euc girl. maybe today i'll shoot a phone video of my terrain. 

[Tawpie]

Jumping cow pies in a pasture... sounds like your protection gear needs to include a Tyvek© oversuit!

[FunTech4Real]

From facebook: https://www.facebook.com/75401032/videos/980290769604944/

I finished testing the new S22 Pro motor vs the original S22 motor. I've rode over 1,000 miles on the original S22 motor and about 15 miles on the new S22 Pro motor (both in the same machine, the Pro uses the same controller as the original). Here are my findings:

1. motor weight: old motor - 19.2 lbs; new motor - 21 lbs (the new motor weighing more is likely due to bigger magnets)
2. freespin speed (100% charge): old motor - 69.2 MPH; new motor: 65 MPH
3. Hill climb test - the new motor can do a slow steep hill climb easily that the old motor gave out on (video attached to this post)
4. Subjective low speed overpower test - with the old motor I can lean hard into the wheel and overlean it very easily at low speed. With the new motor I have to lean much harder into the wheel to get it to overlean at low speeds (I'm 6'4'' and 200 lbs, so I can produce a huge amount of leverage). Compared to a Begode T4 V3, the S22 with the pro motor requires more force to overlean than the T4 (I tested this riding the 2 wheels one after another repeatedly, both fully charged). The old S22 motor was much easier to overlean than the T4.
5. Heat generation - the old motor had an overheating issue. I managed to overheat the old motor a few times (without trying). The wheel has a motor temperature sensor and its programmed to tilt back when the motor temp hits 248*F (yes that is crazy hot). I tested the motor's heat generation by going ~30 MPH up and down a 25* hill that is about 100 yards long roughly 20 times in a row (going down also heats things up). The new motor only climbed to 161*F; I'm confident that the old motor would have much higher temps and likely have overheated (248*F) from this test.
   
   In layman's terms I would say they swapped the "high speed" motor for a "high torque" motor. I doubt that the new motor consumes more power than the old one. It likely consumes less power at low speeds than the old one because it is wound for more torque than the old motor. Kingsong's claims that they increased the power of the motor by 700 watts is likely just silly marketing. I'm very pleased with the results so far from my initial tests, the new motor solves the main problem of the S22 - it was lacking torque at low speeds.
   
   The S22 finally feels like the wheel it was always meant to be (assuming you have good sliders in it; I don't know if the sliders that come in the Pro model are any good).

Edited February 20, 2023 by YourAubsome

[Paul A]

6'4", 200lbs?

Typo?

[FunTech4Real]

3 minutes ago, Paul A said:

6'4", 200lbs?

Typo?

I'm not the one who posted the article on facebook. I'm just sharing it here

Edited February 20, 2023 by YourAubsome

[Paul A]

Ok, thanks.

Nice report.

[chanman]

30 minutes ago, YourAubsome said:

increased the power of the motor by 700 watts

This rating by the motor manufacturer is actually more related to the improved heat dissipation, more sustained power without overheating. No change in how much power is actually delivered to the motor with the same controller and firmware obviously.

I have some concerns about the speed demons trying this motor and thinking they can push the top speeds as much as they could before, but if it's more torque oriented then that could be a problem. Hopefully still plenty of buffer around 70kph.

[FunTech4Real]

Just now, chanman said:

This rating by the motor manufacturer is actually more related to the improved heat dissipation, more sustained power without overheating. No change in how much power is actually delivered to the motor with the same controller and firmware obviously.

I have some concerns about the speed demons trying this motor and thinking they can push the top speeds as much as they could before, but if it's more torque oriented then that could be a problem. Hopefully still plenty of buffer around 70kph.

The freespin speed dropped from 69.2 MPH to 65 MPH. The rated top speed is only 43.5 MPH... that is still a huge buffer between the top speed and the freespin speed, more than any wheel except the V13. 

[chanman]

Yeah all the speed demons bought Begodes anyway, probably nobody is pushing these beyond the 43mph tiltback, so should be all upside in improved hill climbing and less overheating.

 

[Crab]

Combined with the ewheels 40T packs, I’m feeling really good about the safety cushion.

[novazeus]

5 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Jumping cow pies in a pasture... sounds like your protection gear needs to include a Tyvek© oversuit!

wheels aren't recreational for me.

i'm still looking for two newborn calves or their remains. 

i live offgrid. i broke my jeep wrangler on my terrain looking for another newborn a year ago. i'd walk the ranch, it's only 300 football fields, but Bob can't keep up with me, he wears a fur coat 24/7.

idk if the coyotes, birds of prey,(bald eagles) or one of the illegal aliens grabbed them. calves in my area have been killed and butchered by lowlifes.

i was born and raised here in this business. 

so in a little while, i start out again on the s22 looking for dead calves. big fun!

i let my driver's license expire because 9 years ago the doctors only offered me hospice for my terminal cancer, but thankfully i wasn't brainwashed like all humans are, and i read on the internet that thc kills cancer. so to avoid any chance of u brainwashed humans trying to imprison me for surviving terminal cancer now for 9 years, when all the brainwashed doctors said i only had 3 months to live in 2014, i don't leave the ranch, and i don't particularly like brainwashed humans anyway. so driving my jeep to get gas is out of the question, and it's broken anyway, because a stick punctured the plastic gas line that jeep thought would be clever to run it exposed underneath the vehicle.

6 years ago, when i started riding wheels, forum members had their doubts whether wheels would serve my purpose. walking Bob and doing what i'm doing yesterday and today. they were correct on both counts. Bob was too young and straight axles on wheels, plus their limited power made them impractical for what i needed. 

Bob and i took a different path home so i could surveil part of my northern property line, and i took some pics along the way so y'all could get an idea what real offroading looks like.

the good news is, even with my crappy solar and powerstation, i have been able to recharge both wheels without using my gasoline generators. 

the other good news is, i know this 300 football fields like the back of my hand, but i still get launched. a couple of years ago i actually drove the jeep into some deep hole and the rear tires were up in the air. had to walk home and was able to pull it out using my polaris.

if i can scrape up enough diesel fuel, i can make wheel ruts that work great for traveling by wheel. i just need a path around my perimeter fencing. 

dangerous for a horse as well. 

. 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by novazeus

[litewave]

On 2/19/2023 at 11:47 AM, Flying W said:

I was using my motorcycle spoons for tire changes and the rim damage inside kept popping tubes. I had to dremmel the damaged areas.

I bought the same ones mrelwood recommended to me and it's been fine ever since.

Even though euc rims have a shallow center dip its still important to get tye bead into the dip when mounting to get enough Bead slack. 

Let the tire grease evaporate before riding,  I've gotten too happy to have my wheel back before and spun rim in the tire ripping off my valve stem before too hahaha

On 2/19/2023 at 7:41 AM, mrelwood said:

... Get yourself some tire grease and good plastic tire spoons. Without grease there’s up to twenty times more work. Do not use any other grease than special tire mount grease! It must be of a kind that dries up. Dish washing soap works ok as well. ...

Can you post links for the spoons and grease you use(d)? I bought some metal ones but haven't used them yet on my imaginary S22 Pro that still hasn't shipped (sigh).

Thanks.

Edited February 20, 2023 by litewave

[Crab]

Highest free spin I have logged is 58.5

[FunTech4Real]

46 minutes ago, Crab said:

Highest free spin I have logged is 58.5

try it at 100% charge

[supercurio]

4 hours ago, YourAubsome said:

From facebook: https://www.facebook.com/75401032/videos/980290769604944/

I finished testing the new S22 Pro motor vs the original S22 motor. I've rode over 1,000 miles on the original S22 motor and about 15 miles on the new S22 Pro motor (both in the same machine, the Pro uses the same controller as the original). Here are my findings:

1. motor weight: old motor - 19.2 lbs; new motor - 21 lbs (the new motor weighing more is likely due to bigger magnets)
2. freespin speed (100% charge): old motor - 69.2 MPH; new motor: 65 MPH
3. Hill climb test - the new motor can do a slow steep hill climb easily that the old motor gave out on (video attached to this post)
4. Subjective low speed overpower test - with the old motor I can lean hard into the wheel and overlean it very easily at low speed. With the new motor I have to lean much harder into the wheel to get it to overlean at low speeds (I'm 6'4'' and 200 lbs, so I can produce a huge amount of leverage). Compared to a Begode T4 V3, the S22 with the pro motor requires more force to overlean than the T4 (I tested this riding the 2 wheels one after another repeatedly, both fully charged). The old S22 motor was much easier to overlean than the T4.
5. Heat generation - the old motor had an overheating issue. I managed to overheat the old motor a few times (without trying). The wheel has a motor temperature sensor and its programmed to tilt back when the motor temp hits 248*F (yes that is crazy hot). I tested the motor's heat generation by going ~30 MPH up and down a 25* hill that is about 100 yards long roughly 20 times in a row (going down also heats things up). The new motor only climbed to 161*F; I'm confident that the old motor would have much higher temps and likely have overheated (248*F) from this test.
   
   In layman's terms I would say they swapped the "high speed" motor for a "high torque" motor. I doubt that the new motor consumes more power than the old one. It likely consumes less power at low speeds than the old one because it is wound for more torque than the old motor. Kingsong's claims that they increased the power of the motor by 700 watts is likely just silly marketing. I'm very pleased with the results so far from my initial tests, the new motor solves the main problem of the S22 - it was lacking torque at low speeds.
   
   The S22 finally feels like the wheel it was always meant to be (assuming you have good sliders in it; I don't know if the sliders that come in the Pro model are any good).

 

Freespin: ZX 69.2 MPH and HH: 65 MPH
That's 6.4% increase in low speed torque from the decrease in speed alone.
It means means more torque at low speeds and.. you guess it less torque at high speed.
I don't know where the tables turn but it can probably be estimated.

It's nice to hear it doesn't heat up as much during a climb. A more torque motor will heat up less from the lower phase current it needs to generate the same torque, but from the values reported it also seems clear that it's also more efficient. How much would that contribute to increased torque? We can't tell without measuring.

Then we can expect a bit more range with this motor.
However the S22 loses range with battery packs getting cold easier than other models from its metal: it won't affect that but efficiency is always a good thing 😌

Now, would it be worth an upgrade? (if you pay for it)

• If for you low end torque is the most important thing, for technical off-road for instance and money is unlimited: maybe. There might be wheels coming soon that simply do better here however.
• If you'd like more torque but where you need it is at 20+mph - there might not be much of a difference here. TBD if it's perceivable
• If you ride your S22 on street and often go to higher/top speed: new HH motor will be a downgrade.

Edited February 20, 2023 by supercurio

[novazeus]

do we know which battery version the s22 has?