Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[litewave]

4 hours ago, YourAubsome said:

https://www.facebook.com/75401032/videos/876017870308495/

Why are you posting your text as .png?

Hmmm.

Edited February 1, 2023 by litewave

[Roadpower]

8 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

The 2-rod solution has problems of it's own with tolerances, center dead zone and skewing due to too weak bridges, all suspension wheels currently out has various type of suspension related problems bar Maybe V13 nothing reported yet from what I saw (?), I've said it before and will say it again I think this is the growing pains of transition to suspension, manufacturers are learning how to do it properly.

The one thing that S22 really has it going for it though is the travel length which puts it ahead at the moment.

Growing pains is a valid argument but made somewhat fuzzy as I am failing to recall any serious suspension issues with the KS18 and V11. I know they had other issues but I don't recall that they had suspension issues. As for the travel length of the KS22, the issue I have with it is that every time I look at its suspension being worked, it always looks like it is being hampered by more resistance than I think it should, before AND after the slider modifications. I don't see a fluid travel movement there, that is the part that gets under my skin with this wheel.

[Rawnei]

7 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

Growing pains is a valid argument but made somewhat fuzzy as I am failing to recall any serious suspension issues with the KS18 and V11. I know they had other issues but I don't recall that they had suspension issues. As for the travel length of the KS22, the issue I have with it is that every time I look at its suspension being worked, it always looks like it is being hampered by more resistance than I think it should, before AND after the slider modifications. I don't see a fluid travel movement there, that is the part that gets under my skin with this wheel.

I believe S18 had issues both with misalignment and leaky shocks? But don't quote me on that.

V11 while cushy is not the best suspension overall for several reasons and can quickly get worn out and get degraded functionality.

S22 with roller sliders are butter smooth.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Rawnei

[redfoxdude]

10 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

Growing pains is a valid argument but made somewhat fuzzy as I am failing to recall any serious suspension issues with the KS18 and V11. I know they had other issues but I don't recall that they had suspension issues. As for the travel length of the KS22, the issue I have with it is that every time I look at its suspension being worked, it always looks like it is being hampered by more resistance than I think it should, before AND after the slider modifications. I don't see a fluid travel movement there, that is the part that gets under my skin with this wheel.

2 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

I believe S18 had issues both with misalignment and leaky shocks? But don't quote me on that.

V11 while cushy is not the best suspension overall for several reasons and can quickly get worn out and get degraded functionality.

Yes, the S18's assembly was very sensitive to alignment tolerances. Using the old clamp-style motor mount, the clamping surfaces were not perfectly square to motor, and tightening the clamp down caused major friction. It was a huge PITA to get it aligned and sliding smoothly. My S18, when I had it, was noticeably smoother than most other S18s I encountered, due to my alignment efforts. I really don't want to have to deal with that again. I dreaded any time I would need to disassemble for any reason - getting it re-aligned was a nightmare.

My Master also had alignment issues, which was disappointing.

Edited February 1, 2023 by redfoxdude

[Tawpie]

14 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

I don't see a fluid travel movement there

perhaps there's something else wrong? The S22's linkage is "progressive", meaning that the further the wheel goes into the wheel well the more force it takes to move it further in. This is what keeps it from bottoming out on big hits—you get this progressive action by default with air shocks but coil-over shocks get their leverage curve from the linkage design.

But again, I'm not sure what you mean by fluid travel movement! It shouldn't get 'stuck' anywhere in its travel. But it's not exactly easy to move... to compress the spring an inch requires a force of 750 lbs.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Tawpie

[redfoxdude]

3 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

But again, I'm not sure what you mean by fluid travel movement! It shouldn't get 'stuck' anywhere in its travel.

My S22 w/ King Song 8-wheel sliders does, it has a couple spots it likes to "notch" into near the top of the travel... 
That said, it looks like Hou Ningning is getting a sizeable order from a certain US distributor (cough eWheels cough)  I already ordered a 6-wheel from him though, since I believe the 8-wheel is slightly too long to get the extra couple millimeters of travel out of aftermarket shocks.

Edited February 1, 2023 by redfoxdude

[Tawpie]

1 minute ago, redfoxdude said:

My S22 w/ King Song 8-wheel sliders does

I guess I lucked out by taking a chance on my ningning 8s, they're smooth all the way through the travel (shock disconnected)

[redfoxdude]

1 minute ago, Tawpie said:

I guess I lucked out by taking a chance on my ningning 8s, they're smooth all the way through the travel (shock disconnected)

It's gotten a little better with some miles, but there is just so much preload on the wheels/bearings, I don't think it will ever be smooth like that. I have to hold both the chassis and the motor and pull hard to get it to move with the shock disconnected. Super excited for my set from Ningning though, especially after your results!

[Tawpie]

I wonder if the eWheels kits are using 25mm wheelies. ningning's are 24mm (and are the white rounded wheels). I got extras from Ali for about 1USD each... 6mm shaft diameter. A slightly smaller wheelie on one side (like smaller diameter on the 4 wheels that face forward on each slider, but leave wide ones on the rears) would reduce the overall width roller-to-roller by a half mm, maybe that's enough?

[redfoxdude]

1 minute ago, Tawpie said:

I wonder if the eWheels kits are using 25mm wheelies. ningning's are 24mm (and are the white rounded wheels). I got extras from Ali for about 1USD each... 6mm shaft diameter. A slightly smaller wheelie on one side (like smaller diameter on the 4 wheels that face forward on each slider, but leave wide ones on the rears) would reduce the overall width roller-to-roller by a half mm, maybe that's enough?

Hmm maybe! These have 5mm shaft diameter, though. The 6mm 7075 shafts on Ningnings are appealing. Maybe smaller shafts is another reason KS went with more rollers, to distribute the load and reduce flex.

[techyiam]

14 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

Hmm maybe! These have 5mm shaft diameter, though. The 6mm 7075 shafts on Ningnings are appealing. Maybe smaller shafts is another reason KS went with more rollers, to distribute the load and reduce flex.

Maybe, maybe not since some people have pointed out that the original designers didn't think more than 4 or 5 rollers per rail would help since not all the rollers would make contact at the same time. However, from a fatigue perspective, 8 rollers may help.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by techyiam

[redfoxdude]

6 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Maybe, maybe not since some people have pointed out that the original designers didn't think more than 4 or 5 rollers per rail would help since not all the rollers would make contact at the same time. However, from a fatigue perspective, 8 rollers may help.

I also heard that some tolerance issues in the slot sizing makes more wheels less likely to have slop/play. That said, I can definitely tell you that all the wheels in the KS design do indeed contact. With quite a bit of preload... Too much actually =(

Edited February 1, 2023 by redfoxdude

[chanman]

I can confirm the kingsong rollers are 24 ish mm, I seem to be getting around 24.3 for most of them, not sure how much of a factor that is. Mine have broken in decently after 50 miles or so. Initially there was a lot of extra friction and ugly noise but seems to have gone away and motion is pretty smooth now.

I also can confirm the shaft tolerances are whack. I added thread glue to some shafts where the wheels slid on and off and had the inner part rotate freely, and also had a hell of a time prying off some of them that I had to get off in order to get to the screw holes.

I do get a good bit more sag/preload when I step on now, which is a good thing, and also is adjustable with the soft/hard dial on the shock, previously only softest was a a viable option.

Edited February 1, 2023 by chanman

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, redfoxdude said:

My S22 w/ King Song 8-wheel sliders does, it has a couple spots it likes to "notch" into near the top of the travel... 
That said, it looks like Hou Ningning is getting a sizeable order from a certain US distributor (cough eWheels cough)  I already ordered a 6-wheel from him though, since I believe the 8-wheel is slightly too long to get the extra couple millimeters of travel out of aftermarket shocks.

One way to test (pain in the ass I know) is to remove the sliders from frame and then test them in the channels one by one to see how they move but I understand not wanting to do this since the wheels are pressed on there, circlip solution from King Song would have been much smarter.

Maybe you can test that once you swap to the 6-wheel ones? Just to see if you can find the issue and report back. 😞

Edited February 1, 2023 by Rawnei

[redfoxdude]

17 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

One way to test (pain in the ass I know) is to remove the sliders from frame and then test them in the channels one by one to see how they move but I understand not wanting to do this since the wheels are pressed on there, circlip solution from King Song would have been much smarter.

Maybe you can test that once you swap to the 6-wheel ones? Just to see if you can find the issue and report back. 😞

I did actually do this when they were completely new! Extremely stiff and notchy over the whole travel, yucky. Feels like when you have too much preload on bearings. Fewer wheels was better, but I don't know how the little 5mm axles would handle that, so I'm hesitant to play with that.
Now it's mainly near the top of the travel. I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually pretty notchy the whole way, but the spring force is enough to overcome/overshadow it deeper in the travel. It does not smoothly sag when stepping on like a proper suspension should, there's an obvious breakaway force, and I pretty much need the rebound and compression damping fully open.

Edited February 1, 2023 by redfoxdude

[Rawnei]

9 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

I did actually do this when they were completely new! Extremely stiff and notchy over the whole travel, yucky. Feels like when you have too much preload on bearings. Fewer wheels was better, but I don't know how the little 5mm axles would handle that, so I'm hesitant to play with that.
Now it's mainly near the top of the travel. I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually pretty notchy the whole way, but the spring force is enough to overcome/overshadow it deeper in the travel. It does not smoothly sag when stepping on like a proper suspension should, there's an obvious breakaway force, and I pretty much need the rebound and compression damping fully open.

For these type of applications tolerances are so important, any small deviations will cause stiction, if your 6-wheel sliders roll in there without any stiction then you know for sure it's the KS sliders that are the problem, otherwise it would be different tolerances in the battery channels but most likely not.

[Paul A]

Maybe the roller wheels need to be pneumatic......

[techyiam]

8 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Maybe the roller wheels need to be pneumatic......

Hey, maybe you can offer baby inner tubes for them. 😄

How about airless tires, but roller size versions?

[redfoxdude]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

For these type of applications tolerances are so important, any small deviations will cause stiction, if your 6-wheel sliders roll in there without any stiction then you know for sure it's the KS sliders that are the problem, otherwise it would be different tolerances in the battery channels but most likely not.

Agreed! Everyone I've talked to with the KS sliders have noted similar issues, and it's enough that Jason at eWheels is looking at buying a bunch of the 3rd party sliders, so I'm feeling pretty good about it not being my battery channels.
Should only be a couple more weeks until I receive the 6-wheel sliders - pretty excited! I'm glad the S22 is so easy to work on.

[FunTech4Real]

22 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

Agreed! Everyone I've talked to with the KS sliders have noted similar issues, and it's enough that Jason at eWheels is looking at buying a bunch of the 3rd party sliders, so I'm feeling pretty good about it not being my battery channels.
Should only be a couple more weeks until I receive the 6-wheel sliders - pretty excited! I'm glad the S22 is so easy to work on.

The KS roller sliders are absolute shit. I confirmed this with the ones I received and Kingsong confirmed it with their own installation video (watch how hard they had to push the wheel with new sliders in). Ewheels cares about their customers and doesn't want to give them shit, so they are not going to give out the KS roller sliders... I have insider knowledge and I don't want to say too much about it. 

The real question is: Do the S22 pro slider suck too? No one has an answer to this yet. It will suck if the answer is yes... and it likely is... because then even the S22 Pro will need 3rd party sliders, and they might need to be different from the current 3rd party sliders due to the change in battery case (although I'm not sure if the wider channels will require a different 3rd party slider design). 

[chanman]

I thought they were shit until I actually wore them in after install and now they're definitely usable and an improvement over stock. I don't have any third party ones to compare. Getting them installed correctly and without issues with the tolerances kinda sucked though.

[FunTech4Real]

4 minutes ago, chanman said:

I thought they were shit until I actually wore them in after install and now they're definitely usable and an improvement over stock. I don't have any third party ones to compare. Getting them installed correctly and without issues with the tolerances kinda sucked though.

they are shit... the stock sliders are beyond shit. Once you use good roller sliders it will blow your mind... its like a totally different wheel. 

[chanman]

Well mine aren't shit, maybe yours are, maybe you haven't worn them in yet? I don't doubt there could be better but it's very far from horrible and like I said much better than stock.

Edited February 1, 2023 by chanman

[FunTech4Real]

Just now, chanman said:

Well mine aren't shit, maybe yours are, maybe you haven't worn them in yet? I don't doubt there could be better but it's very far from horrible and like I said much better than stock.

much better thank stock is not impressive in any way... the suspension should be super smooth and absorb every tiny bump. It should fully rebound and do it very quickly. It should feel like the absolute ideal suspension that blows away everything you have encountered on an EUC and makes you think "holy shit this is amazing". I'm saying that after doing extensive riding with 3rd party CNC roller sliders, and the Kingsong roller sliders, and a S18, V11, T4, and Master. I have yet to try a Sherman S, but everyone says its the best, but no one who has tried a Sherman S has tried the S22 with good CNC roller sliders (at least no one I know of, including Wrong Way and Hsiang who have only tried 3d printed roller sliders). 

[Robse]

4 minutes ago, YourAubsome said:

they are shit... the stock sliders are beyond shit. Once you use good roller sliders it will blow your mind... its like a totally different wheel. 

In my younger days (hmmnnn, back then when the internet was just invented ) we did a lot of rack server installations, and used these ball bearing sliders.  They where not to destroy, and the shelf that was carried by them could easily carry a fat electrician.  I wonder why does KingSong not use this type of slider?

https://www.rackmountmart.com/html/chAss.htm