Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Paul A]

Would a Silicone dry lubricant spray be better?

Would a Graphite dry lubricant spray be better?

[Rollin-on-1]

6 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Would a Silicone dry lubricant spray be better?

Would a Graphite dry lubricant spray be better?

Graphite conducts electricity and kind of gets everywhere.  Applying it near the batteries may lead to undesirable outcomes.

[Uras]

3 hours ago, kiitick said:

I'm going to apply some bees wax to mine. Luckily I've got a friend who is a beekeeper. 

I haven't heard of folk using bees wax, so I can't comment. I only know about paraffin wax - the stuff that candles are usually made of. With bearings I'd do the same routine that I do with my chain - melt the wax and put the bearings in it for 10 mins or so. The bearings will initially be stiff, even solid. Like the chains though, they will loosen up very quickly with some use. I bought a kg clump of wax off ebay - I've been using half of that for 3 years now (still going). I keep it in a biscuit tin - just put the tin on the stove when I want to use it. You don't need to, but I also added some ptfe powder to my mix, also bought off ebay.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Uras

[mrelwood]

I wouldn’t wax my bearings though. The thought of filling a sealed bearing with a solidifying matter doesn’t make much sense to me. Marine grease on bearings works well, and if contaminants would get inside a greased bearing, they would get into a waxed bearing as well.

 Where wax shines though (heh!) is where there are contaminants present constantly, such as open suspension sliders. It also stays longer on the V11 sliders than any oil, grease, or graphite that I’ve tried.

[Uras]

15 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The thought of filling a sealed bearing with a solidifying matter

that's only true until the bearing moves (same as the chains). My chains are as loose as those lubed with oil etc only after a short ride. 

[Flygonial]

Bought my S22 from Eevees for a good discount around November, the width and ride feel did throw me off a bit as I did most of my initial learning on a friend's 16x. Felt some of the difficulty from moving the stock knobby in turns or carving, especially when I was still learning. I mostly figured it out, though I had my balance calibrated slightly back so it'd be more comfortable for me when learning. After getting used to that for a while, I swapped in some printed sliders, set my calibration to almost right on the dot even, and raised pressure to 40 psi. Was surprised by how much better it felt, much more zippy (especially with the firmware update having dropped shortly after I got mine), and the suspension, though not a huge improvement, helped a good bit with the confidence to hit 30 mph that I was lacking before. Ideally, I would still want to learn to a point where I'd be comfortable at that speed even without suspension and still remember to be an active rider with avoiding hazards and bracing/deweighting over bumps. I've been printing out some of @Rawnei's accessories like the headlight covers and bumper handle, along with the Flexi-Feet free-to-download pads. Did a little bit of Tinkercad work to add a jump insert to the pads but have still been getting them printed out because I made the dumb mistake of printing TPU onto bare PEI. For all the PETG experience I had (also known to chunk PEI and glass), I didn't imagine it could be that sticky. In the future, probably want to look at some swingarm protection, fairings to cover the front corners of the battery box, and possibly a multi-piece (I have a fairly small printer) seat design. As for anything I'd need to drop a pretty penny for, however, I'm still eyeing spiked pedals and machined sliders.

For other wheels, I considered the Commander from AR at that time, before the Black Friday sales had dropped I had just wanted to go straight to a V12HS. Between all the wheels, I did want to pick something that could at least comfortably cruise around the 30s (which is already slower than many of the other group riders in Houston, a wheel that maxed out around the 30s would lead to a bit of feeling left out). I did get a lick of buyer's remorse when Masters went on sale but I appreciate the S22's individual cell monitoring, respectable water resistance, and metal battery box. I did accept that I had to and will still need to drop extra money and/or time on modding.

Of course, my relatively positive perspective is probably skewed since this is my first wheel. Though I did have the opportunity to ship out my wheel to get swapped or request a replacement shipped to me from Eevees, I flew out for a few weeks for Christmas and it would seem they need to restock on pinned motors. I'm getting a little bit antsy in waiting but not upset about it yet.

[Rawnei]

So I've been very happy with the 4-wheel sliders from MyEwheel since I installed them in early November, I have been riding them pretty hard and they have performed excellent, however sometime this past month or so I noticed that the suspension was feeling stiffer than before, I suspected that maybe one or a couple of the wheels were broken so I did my first disassembly and inspection of the sliders today.

As I had guessed 3 of the wheels where broken, this looks like the typical kind of breakdown that can happen if there was an air bubble in the POM material, i.e. not normal wear for these wheels rather an issue from factory:

 

I always plan ahead so I already had a bunch of spares at home so I could swap out when the time came, I had already inspected all my spares previously to check that they had no air bubbles inside as to not let history repeat itself! 😉

I used a Vice-Grip / Locking Plier to wiggle the old rollers out, this tool made the process of removing them relatively easy, you wiggle away until they come off:

 

 

Then I used an adjustable plier and a 5-6mm socket to push the new ones in which went really easy:

 

 

Suspension feels as good as new again! I'm guessing these will last much longer than 2-3 months since they had no bubbles in them:

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Rawnei

[mrelwood]

21 hours ago, Uras said:

that's only true until the bearing moves (same as the chains). My chains are as loose as those lubed with oil etc only after a short ride. 

Chains, sure, since the excess wax can just drop off. A bearing is an enclosed space where the excess wax has nowhere to go. Unless the seals are opened up and the bearing is properly driven in while open, for example.

 Anyway, enough of that. Great to see good tips on the slider wheel replacement, @Rawnei!

[Uras]

34 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Chains, sure, since the excess wax can just drop off. A bearing is an enclosed space where the excess wax has nowhere to go

excess wax by definition will be outside the bearing, as it is with the chain. The wax simply changes form with movement from a solid to a dry paste.

[fbhb]

King Song have just uploaded their Slider Upgrade video to YouTube:

 

[Rawnei]

34 minutes ago, fbhb said:

King Song have just uploaded their Slider Upgrade video to YouTube:

 

Nice, they show the "easy" way to remove the motor, however one doesn't need to disconnect the motor cable either can just slide controller out with motor, saves some time and no need to re-apply silicone and wait for it to dry (which by the way they missed doing in this video).

Edited February 1, 2023 by Rawnei

[Paul A]

Think someone has mentioned that it is better to only have four wheels per slider.....rather than eight.

Two wheels at the top, two wheels at the bottom.

 

Think it has been mentioned that the KS replacement sliders are not very good.

That replacement sliders from myEwheel are better.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Paul A

[Rawnei]

35 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Think someone has mentioned that it is better to only have four wheels per slider.....rather than eight.

Two wheels at the top, two wheels at the bottom.

 

Think it has been mentioned that the KS replacement sliders are not very good.

That replacement sliders from myEwheel are better.

The original designs (there are 2 different ones) are from two russians who designed it with 4-wheels on each slider and have said from a mechanical engineering perspective that there was no benefit having more wheels, some time later community sellers modded those designs and added more wheels first 6 wheels then 8 wheels version and said it's better but couldn't specify why it would be better and most likely KS choose to copy those as the final one.

I leave it up to someone educated in mechanical engineering to explain what is better or why but 4-wheels work great at least.

[fbhb]

34 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

I leave it up to someone educated in mechanical engineering to explain what is better or why but 4-wheels work great at least.

Alexander Vodnev, original inventor of the CNC slider upgrade (Zep by the way is the other Russian designer) has clearly stated that 4 rollers per slider or 5 at the very most is the optimum number necessary to take the loading applied during the suspensions travel. He noted that at any one time, not all of the rollers will actually be in contact inside the slider rails, so adding more than this number does not necessarily improve the suspension.

However, it is my personal belief that King Song has gone with the 8 roller implementation in a bid to help keep dust and debris out of the slider slots and not necessarily to improve upon the 4 roller versions. As the flange of the 8 roller sliders extend up and past the mudguard, the tyre cannot throw as much dust/debris into the slider slot being partially protected by the sliders themselves. Obviously, this is not a complete solution compared to the 4 roller sliders with 3D printed dust protection, but King Songs attempt to improve the original design somewhat.

Unfortunately, in true EUC manufacturer style, they have seemingly specced the upgrade sliders with poor quality POM rollers that have already broken for some owners and I even noticed in the video that they managed to break one themselves with the sloppy way they chose to demonstrate installing the rollers hammering directly on the rollers, not on the inner race with a suitable sleeve/socket etc.   

Edited February 1, 2023 by fbhb

[NErider]

My guess for the extra number of rollers would be when 1 starts to wear or fail, the loads are just spread out to the next one in line and the system keeps working without maintenance? I'm not sure that really happens that way in real life after seeing the pictures of damaged rollers even in this thread. 

[Rawnei]

23 minutes ago, NErider said:

My guess for the extra number of rollers would be when 1 starts to wear or fail, the loads are just spread out to the next one in line and the system keeps working without maintenance? I'm not sure that really happens that way in real life after seeing the pictures of damaged rollers even in this thread. 

I think that once wheels starts to break down you will notice the system becoming more stiff regardless how many wheels you have unfortunately.

[FunTech4Real]

https://www.facebook.com/75401032/videos/876017870308495/

[Paul A]

KS needs to have exact copies of the third party rollers produced.

[techyiam]

If Kingsong can't get it right while copying roller sliders that already worked well, what gives us the confidence that Kingsong has the competence in designing and manufacturing an electric wheel that is safe and trustworthy to ride.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by techyiam

[Rawnei]

12 minutes ago, techyiam said:

If Kingsong can't get it right while copying roller sliders that already worked well, what give you the confidence that Kingsong has the competence in designing and manufacturing an electric wheel that is safe and trustworthy to ride.

Yeah ok Mr. Abrams rider.

[FunTech4Real]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

If Kingsong can't get it right while copying roller sliders that already worked well, what give you the confidence that Kingsong has the competence in designing and manufacturing an electric wheel that is safe and trustworthy to ride.

 

The S22 is a well designed machine minus the sliders. Its baffling how bad they are at sliders... the fact that they thought the original S22 sliders were acceptable in any way is shocking. Its confusing how they can make a well designed machine in almost every way but can't figure out something as simple as sliders.

[Roadpower]

13 minutes ago, YourAubsome said:

Its confusing how they can make a well designed machine in almost every way but can't figure out something as simple as sliders.

I'm still wondering if the time between product testing and manufacturing that someone did a material (PTFE?) switch on the slide. The right material might have been okay during product design and testing but once a wrong material gets used it turns into a whole other animal.

[redfoxdude]

20 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

I'm still wondering if the time between product testing and manufacturing that someone did a material (PTFE?) switch on the slide. The right material might have been okay during product design and testing but once a wrong material gets used it turns into a whole other animal.

Yes, from what I recall, Jack said it was really quite good in the prototyping stage, but it went bad in mass production. I've suspected a change in materials and maybe tolerances, too.

[Roadpower]

11 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

Yes, from what I recall, Jack said it was really quite good in the prototyping stage, but it went bad in mass production. I've suspected a change in materials and maybe tolerances, too.

I just watched the video that fbhb posted and now I am thinking that my question doesn't really check out. It doesn't really check out because Kingsong could have just sent out the correct material to KS22 buyers to swap, but they didn't do that. They came up with an entirely different mechanism which could mean multiple things. It could mean that the original design was in fact bad enough to warrant a significant change. It could mean that they felt that the burned their customers bad enough that they didn't want to take a half measure with sending out just the correct material slide and instead went with what independents came up with that was getting positive community feedback.

I feel like there are still unresolved questions here and after watching that video I find myself not impressed by the offset wheel mechanical resolution or design because it is fundamentally not protected from the environment. I think my assessment in another recent thread is ultimately the correct one. The best possible solution (until seen otherwise) is a solid chrome (or chrome type) vertical rod or rods. This allows for self cleaning and is inherently easier to protect from environment exposure.

[Rawnei]

21 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

I just watched the video that fbhb posted and now I am thinking that my question doesn't really check out. It doesn't really check out because Kingsong could have just sent out the correct material to KS22 buyers to swap, but they didn't do that. They came up with an entirely different mechanism which could mean multiple things. It could mean that the original design was in fact bad enough to warrant a significant change. It could mean that they felt that the burned their customers bad enough that they didn't want to take a half measure with sending out just the correct material slide and instead went with what independents came up with that was getting positive community feedback.

I feel like there are still unresolved questions here and after watching that video I find myself not impressed by the offset wheel mechanical resolution or design because it is fundamentally not protected from the environment. I think my assessment in another recent thread is ultimately the correct one. The best possible solution (until seen otherwise) is a solid chrome (or chrome type) vertical rod or rods. This allows for self cleaning and is inherently easier to protect from environment exposure.

The 2-rod solution has problems of it's own with tolerances, center dead zone and skewing due to too weak bridges, all suspension wheels currently out has various type of suspension related problems bar Maybe V13 nothing reported yet from what I saw (?), I've said it before and will say it again I think this is the growing pains of transition to suspension, manufacturers are learning how to do it properly.

The one thing that S22 really has it going for it though is the travel length which puts it ahead at the moment.

Edit:

oh no..

Edited February 1, 2023 by Rawnei