Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[novazeus]

9 hours ago, Tawpie said:

It's experimental or otherwise "not for customer". Remember that SoftTuner is a tech support app that is for dealers and service centers, so firmware you could load via SoftTuner may not be suitable for general use... it might be have a feature that is only for troubleshooting, or for confirming that something is working or broken.

I'd stick with 2.25 mainboard and 2.15 BMS. If Freemotionshop won't tell you, go by what the KS app says (and you're up to date according to your screenshot).

Also, unless you absolutely need 1 or 2 additional very unpleasant miles of range, don't worry at all about getting to 126.0 volts. The only thing to worry about is the voltage difference of the cells from max to min. I'm routinely using the iOS KS app to limit charging to 80% these days, 100% if I'm thinking I'm going to do 50 miles. I check the cell voltages pre-and-post ride... so far all is fine (30 mV max-min).

soft tuner said 2.15 was incompatible, but i installed ot because u were running it.

 

soft tuner says all versions are incompatible, even 2.08

 

king song had an email address for support but i haven’t asked them yet.

they should know which version bms firmware we sb running.

kinda a big deal because the charger is dumb and these new bms control everything.

Edited January 21, 2023 by novazeus

[Tawpie]

34 minutes ago, novazeus said:

because u were running it.

my wheel arrived from the dealer with 2.15 pre-installed. And the scuttlebutt in the community is that it is fine and fixed or partially fixed the 'why don't the cell voltage readings turn blue (balancing)' question. Maybe BMS 2.15 is indicated as not-for-consumer because they want the dealers to do some special hokum or check something before install? I have no idea obviously.

I haven't looked at my S22 with SoftTuner yet—no reason to since basically all you can do 'extra' is load not-for-customer firmware... KS's iOS app and EUCWorld both seem to work fine for me for everything else. Right now, my S22 ain't broke so I'm not going to fix it.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Tawpie

[novazeus]

21 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

my wheel arrived from the dealer with 2.15 pre-installed. And the scuttlebutt in the community is that it is fine and fixed or partially fixed the 'why don't the cell voltage readings turn blue (balancing)' question. Maybe BMS 2.15 is indicated as not-for-consumer because they want the dealers to do some special hokum or check something before install? I have no idea obviously.

I haven't looked at my S22 with SoftTuner yet—no reason to since basically all you can do 'extra' is load not-for-customer firmware... KS's iOS app and EUCWorld both seem to work fine for me for everything else. Right now, my S22 ain't broke so I'm not going to fix it.

all the firmware on soft tuner isn't compatible with a bms on a s22, unless jason's battery packs and bms are different. 

this is typical chinese software that isn't very clever. 

guessing is no substitute  for asking the manufacturer. i doubt jason opened the boxes and installed firmware. me getting version 2.08 and u getting version 2.15 probably has nothing to do with dealers, more likely manufacturer's date of building the wheel.

it took awhile to fix my 18s. nobody on the forum were of any help 5 years ago. i think jason even tried to help even though i bought it off alibaba, this was before ks would brick a wheel bought from china. 

the starting point was asking what others were running and how they wound up with there version. u could have version 1.01 and the app would tell u that u were up to date! it's not functioning as it should.

[Rawnei]

6 hours ago, novazeus said:

mine only showed 95% state of charge. now battery pack one shows 98% and pack two 100%. still below 126 volts.

i have no idea which version is safe or safer. why i'm asking what people are running, because obviously king songs updating software doesn't detect and update automatically. it thought 2.08 was fine, and after telling me in soft tuner 2.15 wasn't compatible, after installing it, it says it's fine. 

obviously nobody knows which version king song wants on the wheels. i seriously doubt jason knows. 

why not be running 2.17, or 2.16?

i know from past experience, the bms controls the charging as it should, but the firmware tells the bms what to do, the charger has very limited brainpower.

Both the BMS's and the charger are not calibrated so well so that's probably why, it's an oversight on King Song's part they should calibrate things better in factory.

[redfoxdude]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

all the firmware on soft tuner isn't compatible with a bms on a s22, unless jason's battery packs and bms are different. 

If by Jason you mean eWheels Jason, his S22 batteries are different, with 4000mAh 40T "high power" cells instead of the typical 5000mAh M50LT cells (I think those are the standard configuration from King Song?)

I would get in touch with Jason and check if there is indeed a special firmware for the eWheels S22s. That might explain why the Soft Tuner was saying it was incompatible? 🤷‍♂️

[novazeus]

31 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

If by Jason you mean eWheels Jason, his S22 batteries are different, with 4000mAh 40T "high power" cells instead of the typical 5000mAh M50LT cells (I think those are the standard configuration from King Song?)

I would get in touch with Jason and check if there is indeed a special firmware for the eWheels S22s. That might explain why the Soft Tuner was saying it was incompatible? 🤷‍♂️

nope. i don't have a s22 from jason, mine is the 2200wh version, and soft tuner will tell u every version is incompatible, even the version urs came withif u try to go back. 

i think it's a chinese translator error as usual.

if my at&t wireless internet wasn't so terrible, i would have installed 2.17, that's the most up to date version.

btw, since king songs software is erroneous, telling people their bms firmware is up to date, i've emailed king song support to ask them.

be interesting to see if they respond, and how long it takes them.

Edited January 20, 2023 by novazeus

[Tawpie]

6 hours ago, novazeus said:

unless jason's battery packs and bms are different. 

actually, Jason's battery packs are different... they have Samsung 40T cells, the rest of the world gets M50LTs. There's some wondering if mainboard 2.26 might be intended for the high drain current 40T packs and 2.25 for M50LT but nobody knows.

[novazeus]

11 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

actually, Jason's battery packs are different... they have Samsung 40T cells, the rest of the world gets M50LTs. There's some wondering if mainboard 2.26 might be intended for the high drain current 40T packs and 2.25 for M50LT but nobody knows.

exactly!

no response from king song yet.

 might be a holiday there still.

i’ll resend in a couple of days.

the king song app will tell u ur up to date with any of them!

[novazeus]

fyi. i might look at version 2.17 tn and see what it's suppose to fix. 

if u compare the numbers, we're talking thousandths difference. so, no big gain, but it did go up. if i cycle it a few more times, it might fix itself so it claims 100% charge. not enough for voltage nerd marty, looking for that fire starting extra watt. 

probably why there's  a big glob of epoxy over the pot controlling voltage from the charger. i would not screw with that.

before on 2.08

after on 2.15

 

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by novazeus

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

 might be a holiday there still.

Sunday

22 January

Chinese New Year 2023

Although CNY officially only lasts for one week, many factories and businesses shut down about 10 days before CNY to allow time for workers to travel home. There is always a mad rush to ship product out of ports before the country shuts down.

 

[onkeldanuel]

17 hours ago, novazeus said:

mine only showed 95% state of charge. now battery pack one shows 98% and pack two 100%. still below 126 volts.

i have no idea which version is safe or safer. why i'm asking what people are running, because obviously king songs updating software doesn't detect and update automatically. it thought 2.08 was fine, and after telling me in soft tuner 2.15 wasn't compatible, after installing it, it says it's fine. 

obviously nobody knows which version king song wants on the wheels. i seriously doubt jason knows. 

why not be running 2.17, or 2.16?

i know from past experience, the bms controls the charging as it should, but the firmware tells the bms what to do, the charger has very limited brainpower.

As long as your packs are balanced within 20-40 mv its perfectly fine and it absolutely doesnt matter if you have 4.17 or 4.19 V State of  charge at charging end, its no difference in range (0 difference) . It would be a problem (and terrible) if some cells are at 4.15 and some on 4.25 for example 

[Rawnei]

Whatever you do please avoid mainboard firmware 2.26 and it will make the tiltback very aggressive, sudden and outright dangerous, it's the one I tested for them and I told them this I'm surprised they made it available in the softtuner.

[mrelwood]

I’m a bit late, but a few comments were left unanswered:

 

On 1/11/2023 at 12:48 AM, novazeus said:

the only way i know how to downsize photos on ios is by emailing then to me.

There’s an app for that! Search for “Batch Resizer 2” for one.

 

On 1/11/2023 at 12:56 AM, novazeus said:

i pray someday, these wheel manufacturers, will hire kuji, or another bi-linguil wheel enthusiast, and put them on the payroll full time in engineering and deign.

You know, the S18 was developed in collaboration with Kuji. Look how that turned out…  Even Kuji can’t fix manufacturing issues at the design stage.

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I’m a bit late, but a few comments were left unanswered:

 

There’s an app for that! Search for “Batch Resizer 2” for one.

 

You know, the S18 was developed in collaboration with Kuji. Look how that turned out…  Even Kuji can’t fix manufacturing issues at the design stage.

i'm just talking about hiring him as a bilingual translator for all their products. 

they say up, when they mean down, or viceversa. the language difference seems to be the problem.

so far, btw, i like my s18 except for a different tire they put on it. not the same tire in kuji's video.

i'll try batch resizer 2, thanks. i usually use my ipad for this and take pics with my phone, so emailing them normally isn't a problem, but at&t where i'm at is practically unusable.

[cyfur]

Anyone here try installing the slider upgrade kit from KingSong for the "non-Pro" S22?

They don't seem to slide well at all for me, like if the diameter of the wheels were too big.

[Crab]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1876404869187267/permalink/2273558536138563/?mibextid=S66gvF
 

Terrible cut out crash, LG50LT batteries pushed to hard?

Edited January 23, 2023 by Crab

[redfoxdude]

40 minutes ago, cyfur said:

Anyone here try installing the slider upgrade kit from KingSong for the "non-Pro" S22?

They don't seem to slide well at all for me, like if the diameter of the wheels were too big.

Yes, and same! They fit quite tightly. Certainly no play, but I don't think they need to be this tight. Curious if they'll break in, or if different wheels would work.

[Julian-NZ]

2 hours ago, cyfur said:

Anyone here try installing the slider upgrade kit from KingSong for the "non-Pro" S22?

They don't seem to slide well at all for me, like if the diameter of the wheels were too big.

I made my own 3D printed ones (just to test it out) and then had a friend mill some out of aluminium.  It was 'snug' but not tight. After doing about 500km on mainly dusty tracks they seem to be holding up well.

I'll take it apart when I get a moment to check it out but it appears to be fine.

It made a massive difference to the feeling of my wheel. I'd definitely suggest that other riders do it as well.  

[cyfur]

1 hour ago, Julian-NZ said:

It was 'snug' but not tight

The official ones from KingSong that I received are definitely too tight (as in, unusable). It turned the S22 into a no-suspension wheel. Once I realized something was wrong It was an actual PITA to get the wheel assembly out of the channels (it involved pulling the wheel up while pushing the battery boxes down with my feet..) Not to mention there is some noticeable variation in how well the bearings fit on the shafts.  Some bearings can fall right off, while others needed a bearing puller to take off...

I'm glad eWheels shipped this kit to me for free because if I paid anything for it I would be furious.

[Rawnei]

5 hours ago, cyfur said:

Anyone here try installing the slider upgrade kit from KingSong for the "non-Pro" S22?

They don't seem to slide well at all for me, like if the diameter of the wheels were too big.

 

4 hours ago, redfoxdude said:

Yes, and same! They fit quite tightly. Certainly no play, but I don't think they need to be this tight. Curious if they'll break in, or if different wheels would work.

 

47 minutes ago, cyfur said:

The official ones from KingSong that I received are definitely too tight (as in, unusable). It turned the S22 into a no-suspension wheel. Once I realized something was wrong It was an actual PITA to get the wheel assembly out of the channels (it involved pulling the wheel up while pushing the battery boxes down with my feet..) Not to mention there is some noticeable variation in how well the bearings fit on the shafts.  Some bearings can fall right off, while others needed a bearing puller to take off...

I'm glad eWheels shipped this kit to me for free because if I paid anything for it I would be furious.

Hmm interesting, from what I understand there should be two versions, one for the S22 and one for the S22 Pro, but the Pro one should not even go into the S22 channels as they are wider and wouldn't fit, could you guys take some photos or make a small clip and show us the problem? 🙏

[fbhb]

25 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Hmm interesting, from what I understand there should be two versions, one for the S22 and one for the S22 Pro, but the Pro one should not even go into the S22 channels as they are wider and wouldn't fit, could you guys take some photos or make a small clip and show us the problem?

@Rawnei you are 100% correct, the S22 Pro version will in No Way fit into the OG S22 slider channels as the middle of the slider body is 12mm wide. This in itself rules out any possibility of there being any kind of mix up in which version eWheels customers have been supplied and unfortunately, points to poor tolerances/manufacturing/choice of pom wheels used by King Song for the OG Sliders!

I personally feel once more deflated hearing this news, having delayed my interest in purchasing my own S22 until the Pro Version becomes available in NZ. I now fear that this variance in how well the King Song slider upgrade works from one wheel to another will also carry over to the Pro version 

Below is an image with the sizing differences I referred to in an earlier post about the 2 slider versions, referencing Ecodrift's teardown:

Version 1.0 press fit rollers, 8mm body between slider slot       Version 2.0 screw fixing for the rollers, with much wider 12mm body between the slider slot

Edited January 23, 2023 by fbhb

[Rawnei]

11 minutes ago, fbhb said:

@Rawnei you are 100% correct, the S22 Pro version will in No Way fit into the OG S22 slider channels as the middle of the slider body is 12mm wide. This in itself rules out any possibility of there being any kind of mix up in which version eWheels customers have been supplied and unfortunately, points to poor tolerances/manufacturing/choice of pom wheels used by King Song for the OG Sliders!

I personally feel once more deflated hearing this news, having delayed my interest in purchasing my own S22 until the Pro Version becomes available in NZ. I now fear that this variance in how well the King Song slider upgrade works from one wheel to another will also carry over to the Pro version 

Below is an image with the sizing differences I referred to in an earlier post about the 2 slider versions, referencing Ecodrift's teardown:

Version 1.0 press fit rollers, 8mm body between slider slot       Version 2.0 screw fixing for the rollers, with much wider 12mm body between the slider slot

I think Pro is the smart choice at this point and I would be surprised if they will keep producing the non-Pro, probably sell the remaining stock and going over 100% to the Pro version.

[redfoxdude]

32 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Hmm interesting, from what I understand there should be two versions, one for the S22 and one for the S22 Pro, but the Pro one should not even go into the S22 channels as they are wider and wouldn't fit, could you guys take some photos or make a small clip and show us the problem? 

Yes, these are the V1.0 non-pro version. You can feel as the sliders are installed, as if the wheels are too large or spaced too widely, so they press against the channel very tightly. I double checked and everything is installed properly. A single slider binds on its own too, so it isn't an alignment issue. Maybe I'll have to check in with Ningning about his...

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by redfoxdude

[cyfur]

3 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

Yes, these are the V1.0 non-pro version. You can feel as the sliders are installed, as if the wheels are too large or spaced too widely, so they press against the channel very tightly. I double checked and everything is installed properly. A single slider binds on its own too, so it isn't an alignment issue. Maybe I'll have to check in with Ningning about his...

 

yea, mine was like that but maybe even a bit worse..

Single slider video of mine below

[Rawnei]

7 hours ago, redfoxdude said:

Yes, these are the V1.0 non-pro version. You can feel as the sliders are installed, as if the wheels are too large or spaced too widely, so they press against the channel very tightly. I double checked and everything is installed properly. A single slider binds on its own too, so it isn't an alignment issue. Maybe I'll have to check in with Ningning about his...

 

If a single slider also has heavy friction that's very bad they should move smoothly in there with minimal friction, well that sucks what an anticlimax.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Rawnei