Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[chanman]

I think I already said I thought the stock sliders were pretty good, certainly a lot better than a lot of people made them sound, so I probably wouldn't have invested in the upgrade if they weren't provided to me.

[Tawpie]

I'm with @chanman. KS used the wrong stuff for 'lubricant', but if you get that out the stock suspension actually works quite well. I think we got a little hysterical over WW's video where the grease+dust really made a mess.

The key is getting the factory grease out. It turns to glue after a bit of time, and I mean: sticky glue. But once it's out, the suspension is ok. Def not great, my S18 was more comfy, but it's ok.

The suspension is better with roller sliders though. Like many wheels are better with clark pads. And pedals with actual 'spikes'. And fairings. And...

BTW, the jury is still out on how well the roller sliders hold up. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Tawpie

[techyiam]

8 minutes ago, chanman said:

I think I already said I thought the stock sliders were pretty good, certainly a lot better than a lot of people made them sound, so I probably wouldn't have invested in the upgrade if they weren't provided to me.

 

2 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I'm like @chanman. KS used the wrong stuff for 'lubricant', but if you get that out the stock suspension actually works quite well. I think we got a little hysterical over WW's video where the grease+dust really made a mess.

The key is getting the factory grease out. It turns to glue after a bit of time, and I mean: sticky glue. But once it's out, the suspension is ok. Def not great, my S18 was more comfy, but it's ok.

The suspension is better with roller sliders though. Like many wheels are better with clark pads. And pedals with actual 'spikes'. And fairings. And...

So basically you two are happy with your S22 purchase. Among other things that you did, you had to clean out and relube your sliders with a different lubricant that doesn't bind up. But you are OK with that. On top of that one has to purchase roller sliders from China, the other got it for free, and you both didn't mind having to install the sliders yourself.

There you have it.

Before the S22/S20, there was the S18. Even Jack ex-kingsong said the S18 had too many problems. And he was the market director at Kingsong at the time. Now it turns out the S22 was even worse. But yet here are examples of two happy customers.

Obviously, Kingsong can double down on poor build quality and bad QC again for their next newly released wheel. Their customers are still happy.

In fact, no need to throw out the unpinned ZX motors. Put them in your next batch. The customers will cone back for more. Guaranteed. 

[kiitick]

My 2 cents again.

I love the wheel. I was happy with the original sliders, I paid for an upgrade from Europe, which I really love. I fell so much in line with this wheel, I bought a second one. Knowing full well the work I wanted to do with it, and even volunteered to replace the motor myself because it got it to my front door that much faster. I have since received a free slider upgrade, which was very easy to install. I still think the performance, weight, speed, and agility on this wheel are amazing. Plus, it's the easiest wheel I've ever had to take apart. Tire change take less than an hour.

I absolutely don't regret buying either one of my s22s, and highly recommend them over the more expensive, heavier wheels, and the original suspension wheels (v11, s18) both of which I sold.

 

I have owned many wheels over the past year and a half I've been riding. And every one of them required work. My v11 board died in the first week. My v12 board crapped out the first time I plugged it in. My Sherman has had to have the board replaced. My Abrams had a cutout issue. I accept the risks. 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by kiitick

[chanman]

This is the same guy who soldered additional capacitors on his Abrams to try to prevent cutouts, right? Going on about how we're suckers for trying to fix issues with wheels and being happy with the results?

Anyway a little manual labor to fix an obvious issue is preferable to me to poor design, boards that blow up, or wheels that self destruct in a crash.  Not going to humor the bit about reusing the defective motors because it's beyond facetious at this point.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by chanman

[fbhb]

35 minutes ago, chanman said:

This is the same guy who soldered additional capacitors on his Abrams to try to prevent cutouts, right?

Exactly my thoughts too, makes all his mud-slinging at King Song in particular completely laughable. Unfortunately, All the EUC manufacturers are responsible in one way or another for allowing poor QC to slip through on just about every New EUC over the last couple of years. However, the Veteran Abrams was one of the most berated wheels in the community due to its well documented and potentially catastrophic ability to throw you onto your face without warning which is obviously a major safety concern (so, so far away from fixing King Song sticky sliders etc.)

Purchasing the supposedly new version Abrams now thinking it is fixed, but then still adding extra capacitors shows the lack of confidence he still has in the wheel's safety, whereby most knowledgeable community members have been staying away from/selling off this wheel in their droves! 

Edited January 29, 2023 by fbhb

[Uras]

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

I wonder why Inmotion even bothered with replacing ALL affected drivers boards, (new board design, shipping and labor cost) on their own dime on the V12.

there are still unanswered issues with the v12 - speeding up for one, and they haven't said anything about it.

I imagine they replaced that stuff because it needed replacing. That's one of the reasons I suggested putting them 3rd on the list (supposedly not as bad as ks and begode). We still do their testing - sometimes with negative consequences; that isn't great.

I think the best we can do is not buy new model wheels - wait till they've been out for at least a year. I bought a 16x . In two or three years time I might get T4 or S22 pro 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Uras

[gon2fast]

It is hard to fathom that KS feels the pinned motors in the non "pro's" are a solution. I understand from a reseller's point of view since they foot the cost, but KS should be more accountable and get all of the compromised motors out of service if they want to maintain their integrity.

[Cerbera]

58 minutes ago, gon2fast said:

It is hard to fathom that KS feels the pinned motors in the non "pro's" are a solution.

Not really - motors are very expensive ! Pinning the danger ones much less so.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Cerbera

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, kiitick said:

Knowing full well the work I wanted to do with it

This is very different than for the fine folks who preorder the S20 from August of 2021.

The S22 did in fact got heavily discounted during the Black Friday month of November at some dealers/distributors. By this time, all the issues were known. For those who still wanted to buy one, this one is on them.

I bought a heavily discounted Abrams knowing full well, I have to work on it, and it can still face plant me. I have nothing to complain about. However, I had a plan that is still unfolding. So far, it is working out better than I expected. But it can still go wrong and be useless. But I am OK with that, I got to try a big heavy wheel, find out more about Veteran products, and test out my hypothesis.

And everybody who also bought one of those heavily discounted wheels are in the same boat. You knew full well going in. So there is no one to blame.

3 hours ago, kiitick said:

v12 board crapped out the first time I plugged it in. My Sherman has had to have the board replaced. My Abrams had a cutout issue. I accept the risks. 

On your V12, was it the main board or the driver board that failed?

Regarding your Abrams, what was the date code on your motor. Was it 2110xxxxxxxxx? October 2021?  Or a later date?

How fast were you going at the time?  Did you have the latest firmware at the time? (June 2021)

Edited January 29, 2023 by techyiam

[Paul A]

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

how well the roller sliders hold up

 

It is possible for KS to simulate usage and perform ageing tests.

Drawer sliders product testing......much more vigorously than IKEA though.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Paul A

[Rawnei]

Here we go again, @techyiam is back in town with the full circus clown parade. 🤡

No other person on this forum is so adamant in annoying people around them because they like a brand that is not approved by the clown committee, it's like we're not allowed to like and appreciate something because @techyiam saw someone on youtube say that it's bad, if he see's you talking positive about something he doesn't approve of he will let you know.

[FunTech4Real]

The S22 pro sliders might still need replacing... Kingsong's roller sliders for existing S22s suck:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/5843274479103800/

Edited January 29, 2023 by YourAubsome

[techyiam]

6 minutes ago, YourAubsome said:

The S22 pro sliders might still need replacing... Kingsong's roller sliders for existing S22s suck:

I saw that too.

But we don't know how widespread that is yet.

If it is indeed widespread, then Kingsong is continuing their trend.

 

I see in your profile that you have 4 suspension wheels.

Perhaps in your Youtube channel you can give your thoughts on the differences between the first generation suspension wheels such as the V11 & S18 versus the second generation suspension wheels such as the T4 and the S22 as to how they ride, and how much work it is to maintain them.

 

[Crab]

32 minutes ago, YourAubsome said:

The S22 pro sliders might still need replacing... Kingsong's roller sliders for existing S22s suck:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/5843274479103800/

Did the ones in your video fail?

[novazeus]

probably using the cheapest chinese bearings they can find. 

i don't think bearings are the answer, especially not where i live. i use to have to clean my inline bearings twice a week and rotate wheels on my inline skates doing 140 miles a week on a perfectly new road that was clean as a whistle. lubricant in the bearings are a magnet for dirt.

i think if they move away from their original design, a complete new rail system needs to happen. 

trying to apply bandaids to redesign is a short term fix.

lots of bearings to choose from, none are good in a non serviceable location.

https://www.inlinewarehouse.com/Inline_Skate_Bearings/catpage-SKATEBRGS.html

Edited January 29, 2023 by novazeus

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Crab said:

Did the ones in your video fail?

In the video, I believe I saw CNC roller sliders with 4 rollers on each rail made by a third party, not Kingsong. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by techyiam

[kiitick]

I pre-ordered the Abrams, it was one of the first off the boat. I also pre-ordered the s22 at full price. I should also mention I had been advised not to ride the Abrams for about 6 weeks due to cut out issues, and my cut out happened after it was "fixed" via a firmware update.  

My Abrams cut out going about 20 mph. Smooth, level road, battery at around 90 percent. Broken wrist as a result. That, combined with getting hit by a truck on that wheel, I lost the trust. Sold it and bought a Sherman. My Sherman had the valve stem blow off going 30 mph, which resulted in a broken collarbone. Luckily a new tube was all it needed at first, until the board shorted out putting it back together. 

My v12 turned on, I rode it a mile, plugged it in, and it never turned on again. Watching the replacement videos didn't inspire confidence that I could do that myself in a single afternoon, so I returned it. I don't mind working on a wheel, but it just wasn't worth it for a non suspension wheel, that's when I ordered my second s22.

I gotta say that the s22 is super nice to work on, if you have an upgrade to put in, or to replace something that goes wrong. Say what you will about the stock sliders (which I put plenty of super comfy miles on) at least it's a fairly easy to maintain and access. A tire change has gone from a dreaded whole day process, to something I can do after work and still have time for a ride.

Edited January 29, 2023 by kiitick

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, kiitick said:

I pre-ordered the Abrams, it was one of the first off the boat. I also pre-ordered the s22 at full price. I should also mention I had been advised not to ride the Abrams for about 6 weeks due to cut out issues, and my cut out happened after it was "fixed" via a firmware update.  

Thank your detailed reply.

Sorry to hear about your bad new wheel purchasing experiences. 

1 hour ago, kiitick said:

My Abrams cut out going about 20 mph. Smooth, level road, battery at around 90 percent. Broken wrist as a result. That, combined with getting hit by a truck on that wheel, I lost the trust.

The real firmware fix didn't come until June, 2021. If you had that firmware, your wheel would not have randomly cutout above 10 km/h. Mind you, below 8 or 10 km/h, it can still cutout randomly, unless the hall sensors got replaced. 

I don't blame you for not trusting it. Leaper Kim dropped the ball on the first batches of Abrams. It took a bit before the production runs got the the motors with the good hall sensors. 

To this day, I still won't trust them until they earn back their good reputation. The Sherman Max was a good start. But it wasn't from the ground up new design like the Sherman S. It will take time.

 

1 hour ago, kiitick said:

My v12 turned on, I rode it a mile, plugged it in, and it never turned on again. Watching the replacement videos didn't inspire confidence that I could do that myself in a single afternoon, so I returned it. I don't mind working on a wheel, but it just wasn't worth it for a non suspension wheel, that's when I ordered my second s22.

I see. You were very unlucky. By the sound of it, it was the driver board then.

1 hour ago, kiitick said:

I gotta say that the s22 is super nice to work on, if you have an upgrade to put in, or to replace something that goes wrong. Say what you will about the stock sliders (which I put plenty of super comfy miles on) at least it's a fairly easy to maintain and access. A tire change has gone from a dreaded whole day process, to something I can do after work and still have time for a ride.

When you bought your 2nd S22, you already knew what all the issues were. You also knew what you were getting yourself into, and what you were going to do with it. So, it not surprising that you would like your purchase. 

For me with my Abrams, it was similar, except I don't already own one, and I had very low expectations. 

For one, I didn't even know, with my not heavy body weight, how it was going to be like to ride a big heavy wheel. 

I bought it at a discounted price as a project purchase. 

Then I proceeded to execute my plan. This will be my medium term project.

I am aiming to get as close as possible to a one-wheel motorcycle. Hence, I need to understand more, and acquire more knowledge, before I make my next purchase. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by techyiam

[FunTech4Real]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

I see in your profile that you have 4 suspension wheels.

Perhaps in your Youtube channel you can give your thoughts on the differences between the first generation suspension wheels such as the V11 & S18 versus the second generation suspension wheels such as the T4 and the S22 as to how they ride, and how much work it is to maintain them.

S22 suspension with good roller sliders (not the ones from Kingsong) blows away everything else. The T4 suspension is really good over small things but its really harsh on big bumps and stairs (the tire size likely impacts the harshness of stairs). I have upgraded linkage for the T4 coming (from nylonove) that should likely improve this, but my guess is a new shock is needed to make the suspension anywhere close to the S22 (there is no way in hell Begode's single chamber air shock is as good as a shock made by a shock company). 

V11 suspension is super soft and bottoms out easily, its good for road riding and off-road but don't do jumps on it or stairs. 

S18 suspension is a little better than the V11, but the S18 sucks in almost every other way.

I would take the T4 over the V11 and S18 any day, and the S22 is still the suspension king (after getting 3rd party sliders), but I have yet to try the Sherman S. The S22 takes the small bumps just as good as any other wheel I mentioned, but you can also do 5 foot drops and it feels like nothing, and stairs feel buttery smooth. 

[cyfur]

7 hours ago, YourAubsome said:

Kingsong's roller sliders for existing S22s suck:

Yeah eWheels responded to me just an hour ago after bringing this up to them telling me to "hold off on them for a few weeks". Not that I would be able to use the KingSong sliders anyways... unless I wanted to turn the S22 into a non-suspension wheel I guess..

[Uras]

7 hours ago, novazeus said:

lubricant in the bearings are a magnet for dirt.

Wax! You have to clean every bit of oil and grease from the bearings first. Wax doesn't attract dirt. In the mtb world drive trains last 2 to 3 times longer and much less maintenance involved. Only if you live / ride in a dry area though - it washes out quickly in water.

[kiitick]

I'm going to apply some bees wax to mine. Luckily I've got a friend who is a beekeeper. 

[mrelwood]

Isn’t beeswax a bit sticky though? I’ve had good experiences with candle wax on my V11 suspension rails.

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, Uras said:

Wax! You have to clean every bit of oil and grease from the bearings first. Wax doesn't attract dirt. In the mtb world drive trains last 2 to 3 times longer and much less maintenance involved. Only if you live / ride in a dry area though - it washes out quickly in water.

i don't think wax would work on my abec 9 swiss ceramic coated bearings in my inline racing skates, be like king songs stock sliders, too slow.

but wax for the bearings in these sliders might be better, i never heard of that before. 

btw, if my memory serves me correctly, i think the only place i ever used red loctite building helis was securing the inner race to a shaft. do the screws that king song provide have a shaft that can be loctited? i saw where u had to hammer on the ver 2 ones.

i just have the amateur version.