Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Paul A]

20 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Solution for what?

Finn was inquiring about how to maintain/clean sliders, on another thread though.

No lubrication, no corrosion, for plastic ball bearings.

Less maintenance required.

[Rawnei]

4 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Finn was inquiring about how to maintain/clean sliders, on another thread though.

No lubrication, no corrosion, for plastic ball bearings.

Less maintenance required.

Problems is more wear than lubrication or corrosion though, plastic part getting destroyed by small rocks or what not getting in there long before bearing stops working.

[mrelwood]

3 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Finn was inquiring about how to maintain/clean sliders, on another thread though.

No lubrication, no corrosion, for plastic ball bearings.

You do realize that sliders and bearings are completely different kinds of products?

3 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Less maintenance required.

The ball bearings on EUCs don’t generally require any maintenance throughout the lifetime of the wheel. Only if the design has an issue that allows contaminants inside the bearing can they get noisy. Plastic wouldn’t help with that at all, sand in a bearing is still sand in a bearing.

[Cerbera]

1 minute ago, mrelwood said:

Plastic wouldn’t help with that at all, sand in a bearing is still sand in a bearing.

Not to mention plastic is generally not used for bearings anywhere automotive because it is terrible at 'bearing' weight without cracking / deforming !!

[Roadpower]

Another item about using sliders with multiple rollers is that each rolling wheel becomes a multiplicative resistance force as they start aging/failing.

This whole thing is becoming like a choice on a motorcycle where your options are chain drive, belt drive and sealed shaft drive. They all have strong points and weak points to consider when you are selecting a motorcycle.

Chain has the most efficiency and is the easiest to replace but the maintenance and cleaning will make you cry unless you are well set up for it. Belt drive is less efficient than chain, near zero maintenance and is generally long life but you don't want to snap a belt while out riding because changing one on the fly is hard to impossible to do. Sealed drive shaft is the worst in efficiency of the three and little maintenance except for regular checking of no seal leaks and annual checking of oil level/condition.

Anywho, I'm still leaning toward that a pneumatic suspension is probably going to be best for over all riding of a EUC but this will be completely dependent on design and construction.

[Rawnei]

3 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

Another item about using sliders with multiple rollers is that each rolling wheel becomes a multiplicative resistance force as they start aging/failing.

This whole thing is becoming like a choice on a motorcycle where your options are chain drive, belt drive and sealed shaft drive. They all have strong points and weak points to consider when you are selecting a motorcycle.

Chain has the most efficiency and is the easiest to replace but the maintenance and cleaning will make you cry unless you are well set up for it. Belt drive is less efficient than chain, near zero maintenance and is generally long life but you don't want to snap a belt while out riding because changing one on the fly is hard to impossible to do. Sealed drive shaft is the worst in efficiency of the three and little maintenance except for regular checking of no seal leaks and annual checking of oil level/condition.

Anywho, I'm still leaning toward that a pneumatic suspension is probably going to be best for over all riding of a EUC but this will be completely dependent on design and construction.

Speaking as someone who recently swapped 3 worn wheels (POM air bubbles) suspension still worked reasonable well, it was just stiffer, then swapping the wheels was not hard task either and if you don't have defective wheels from factory I'm guessing that they will last quite long, so overall not a huge problem.

[Roadpower]

28 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Speaking as someone who recently swapped 3 worn wheels (POM air bubbles) suspension still worked reasonable well, it was just stiffer, then swapping the wheels was not hard task either and if you don't have defective wheels from factory I'm guessing that they will last quite long, so overall not a huge problem.

How frequently are you taking apart the wheel for parts replacement and maintenance?

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

plastic part getting destroyed by small rocks

A small article about plastic bearings substituted into farm machinery.

Don't know much about farming.

Might be relevant.

 

https://www.machinedesign.com/motors-drives/article/21827875/plastic-bearings-excel-in-contaminated-environments

Plastic bearings solve seeding woes

Plastic bearings solved a sticky problem with two and three-section folding grain drills manufactured by Great Plains Manufacturing of Assaria, Kansas. Pulled by a tractor, these machines plant seeds, driving them into the soil with pairs of sharp steel discs. An operator actuates a clutch to stop the seeding at the end of a row or when the equipment is moved to another location.

The problem arose when dust and gritty contaminants fouled the oil that lubricates metal bearings in the clutch. The oil became gummy, preventing clutch operation, so the seed and fertilizer continued to spill on the ground after the operator tried to disengage the clutch. The only solution was to replace the fouled oil — very inconvenient in a farmer’s field. The contaminants trapped in the oil also caused the bearings to wear out about every six months.

The manufacturer redesigned the clutch, incorporating a flanged plastic bearing impregnated with a dry lubricant that is unaffected by rain, dust, mud, and other contaminants.

According to Michael McClure, Great Plains Manufacturing engineering manager, the clutch bearing is subject to cantilever pressure (edge loading due to tilting between shaft and bearing), constant vibration, and shock loading. But after a year of use in the grain drills, the plastic bearings showed no sign of wear, fretting, or deformation.

 

[jrhz06]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

Not to mention plastic is generally not used for bearings anywhere automotive because it is terrible at 'bearing' weight without cracking / deforming !!

Dont know of any bearing use but we molded a plastic thrust washer for use in automotive transmissions that replaced metal washers. The plastic showed less wear than the metal washers. There are some very impressive new plastics available.

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

plastic is generally not used for bearings anywhere automotive because it is terrible at 'bearing' weight without cracking / deforming

 

Finn was inquiring about the Myewheel metal sliders with bearings.

Tawpie was stating: The drawer slider wheels are shielded but not sealed, sprays might get past the shield and dissolve the bearing grease

 

Should have posted in that thread.

It is causing confusion here.

[redfoxdude]

Those plastic bearings in a comparable size to the bearings used in the POM rollers are only rated for a 43 Newton to 62 Newton dynamic load (lower for the one with only one cover plate on one side, higher for the one with no shields/seals at all). Probably amazing for low load applications, but not here unfortunately. The lack of dust protection would likely be an issue, too.
The failure for our rollers tends to be the outer POM wheel however, especially in cases where there are internal bubbles/cavities, not the bearing itself, anyway. It would be nice to see some with rubber seals instead of metal shields, but they still seem to work quite well.

Edited February 9, 2023 by redfoxdude
typo

[Rawnei]

2 hours ago, Roadpower said:

How frequently are you taking apart the wheel for parts replacement and maintenance?

If you look a couple of pages back you get some details, but I had my 4-wheel sliders installed in November, I switched 3 wheels later January because it was stiff, the wear on the wheels was abnormal and due to bubbles in the POM material, so that's 3 months from installation to maintenance due to factory error on POM wheels.

[Roadpower]

3 hours ago, Rawnei said:

If you look a couple of pages back you get some details, but I had my 4-wheel sliders installed in November, I switched 3 wheels later January because it was stiff, the wear on the wheels was abnormal and due to bubbles in the POM material, so that's 3 months from installation to maintenance due to factory error on POM wheels.

Okay, so hopefully the situation stabilizes and you don't end up with an overt maintenance schedule which is what I don't want to see with the slider system.

[Rawnei]

14 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

Okay, so hopefully the situation stabilizes and you don't end up with an overt maintenance schedule which is what I don't want to see with the slider system.

I doubt that, there are 4-wheel slider owners that have many many km's on them so I'm not worried about that.

[litewave]

22 hours ago, Crab said:

I think I’m digging the wheel, 16.1 miles tonight. Btw it turns on a dime at slow speeds and not sketchy like the knobby.😁

It will be interesting to know the diameter of the slider wheels and the width of the battery channels. If recent reports are correct, they are the same as the S22 original, not the wider wheels and channels on the KS S22 Pro.

[Crab]

Anyone able to evaluate my battery readings, slightly different.

[Tawpie]

Delta cell voltage is all I care about, I want that number to be less than 50 mV (means the cells in each pack are balanced). Having the two packs read differently is common and nobody knows if it's because of error in the measurement (that's my guess) or something else.

Looks good to me!

Edited February 10, 2023 by Tawpie

[fbhb]

2 hours ago, litewave said:

If recent reports are correct, they are the same as the S22 original, not the wider wheels and channels on the KS S22 Pro.

@litewave there is seemingly some confusion around the slider channel width of the OG KS S22 and the upcoming KS S22 Pro and hopefully this information below will help to clarify.

The slider channels have NOT been made any wider, it is ONLY the width of the slot that has been increased to allow for the wider middle section of the KS S22 Pro sliders themselves, due to the offset rollers being attached with 5mm screws and needing more meat to accommodate the 5mm threaded holes!

Therefore, both versions of the New King Song sliders definitely use the very same 24mm roller, however King Song chose the wrong "tapered" instead of a round profile POM roller which unfortunately are prone to break/split very easily.

The rollers they chose can ONLY make contact on the 2 very narrow outer edges/arc of the rollers, thus creating undue stress on each roller instead of spreading the load over the wider curved surface of the 24mm wide rollers ALL the CNC versions until now have been using.

The drawings below show the difference between the 2 versions dimensions through the middle section, the OG version being 5mm press fit Pro version 5mm screw fit.

Version 1.0 press fit rollers, 8mm body between slider slot       Version 2.0 screw fixing for the rollers, with much wider 12mm body between the slider slot

In the Ecodrift teardown the difference was pointed out in various photos. 

Kingsong S22 Pro. Disassembling — ECODRIFT

OG KS S22 narrow slider slot.

KS S22 Pro wider slot (channel is still approx. 26mm wide).

KS S22 Por wider bodied slider to accommodate the 5mm screw mounting used.

I have personally been holding off on ordering an S22 until the issues were sorted, which seems to be the case now with the KS S22 Pro, apart from this oversight with speccing the wrong rollers.

However, this can easily be rectified by replacing the King Song 5mmx24mmx7mm tapered rollers with tried and tested round profile 6mmx24mmx7mm, sleeved down to accommodate the 5mm screw mounting that King Song have used.

These stainless-steel tubes I found on Ali Express have the correct dimensions to allow for a light press fit into the 6mmx24mmx7mm roller bearing inner race, albeit just 1mm shorter in length (tube is 5mm deep and bearing is 6mm deep)

This will be my solution to the KS S22 Pro's "tapered" failure prone POM rollers, if indeed King Song DO NOT rectify it themselves (WHICH IS DOUBTFUL!)

 https://tinyurl.com/20pcs-Stainless-Tube-Spacer

20 pack "6x5mm hole 4.8mm" is the description on Ali (5mm screw/bolt fits through the 4.8mm hole perfectly)

6mmx24mmx7mm round profile POM roller with a sleeve pressed flush with the inner race.

6mmx24mmx7mm round profile POM roller showing the sleeve 1mm shy of the other side of the inner race. (This will have NO impact in use/function/durability IMO, given the light press fit involved).

One last point of note: King Song are using Philips screws to fix their rollers which I definitely do not like and will swap them out to either thin profile stainless-steel socket cap heads or button head socket caps.

If using a 5mm countersunk cap screw inserted from the 1mm recess end, it actually works perfectly to accommodate the tapered head and also adding additional clearance at the same time.

Edited February 10, 2023 by fbhb

[Crab]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

Delta cell voltage is all I care about, I want that number to be less than 50 mV (means the cells in each pack are balanced). Having the two packs read differently is common and nobody knows if it's because of error in the measurement (that's my guess) or something else.

Looks good to me!

Good to know, just learning about the wheel I noticed it shuts charging off when done apparently. I put 20 miles on it tonight and it was down to 30 percent or so. Couple shots of the tire at 31psi.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Crab

[litewave]

57 minutes ago, fbhb said:

@litewave there is seemingly some confusion around the slider channel width of the OG KS S22 and the upcoming KS S22 Pro and hopefully this information below will help to clarify.

The slider channels have NOT been made any wider, it is ONLY the width of the slot that has been increased to allow for the wider middle section of the KS S22 Pro sliders themselves, due to the offset rollers being attached with 5mm screws and needing more meat to accommodate the 5mm threaded holes!

Therefore, both versions of the New King Song sliders definitely use the very same 24mm roller, however King Song chose the wrong "tapered" instead of a round profile POM roller which unfortunately are prone to break/split very easily.

The rollers they chose can ONLY make contact on the 2 very narrow outer edges/arc of the rollers, thus creating undue stress on each roller instead of spreading the load over the wider curved surface of the 24mm wide rollers ALL the CNC versions until now have been using.

The drawings below show the difference between the 2 versions dimensions through the middle section, the OG version being 5mm press fit Pro version 5mm screw fit.

Version 1.0 press fit rollers, 8mm body between slider slot       Version 2.0 screw fixing for the rollers, with much wider 12mm body between the slider slot

In the Ecodrift teardown the difference was pointed out in various photos. 

Kingsong S22 Pro. Disassembling — ECODRIFT

OG KS S22 narrow slider slot.

KS S22 Pro wider slot (channel is still approx. 26mm wide).

I have personally been holding off on ordering an S22 until the issues were sorted, which seems to be the case now with the KS S22 Pro, apart from this oversight with speccing the wrong rollers.

However, this can easily be rectified by replacing the King Song 5mmx24mmx7mm tapered rollers with tried and tested round profile 6mmx24mmx7mm, sleeved down to accommodate the 5mm screw mounting that King Song have used.

These stainless-steel tubes I found on Ali Express have the correct dimensions to allow for a light press fit into the 6mmx24mmx7mm roller bearing inner race, albeit just 1mm shorter in length (tube is 5mm deep and bearing is 6mm deep)

This will be my solution to the KS S22 Pro's "tapered" failure prone POM rollers, if indeed King Song DO NOT rectify it themselves (WHICH IS DOUBTFUL!)

 https://tinyurl.com/20pcs-Stainless-Tube-Spacer

20 pack "6x5mm hole 4.8mm" is the description on Ali (5mm screw/bolt fits through the 4.8mm hole perfectly)

6mmx24mmx7mm round profile POM roller with a sleeve pressed flush with the inner race.

6mmx24mmx7mm round profile POM roller showing the sleeve 1mm shy of the other side of the inner race. (This will have NO impact in use/function/durability IMO, given the light press fit involved).

One last point of note: King Song are using Philips screws to fix their rollers which I definitely do not like and will swap them out to either thin profile stainless-steel socket cap heads or button head socket caps.

If using a 5mm countersunk cap screw inserted from the 1mm recess end, it actually works perfectly to accommodate the tapered head and also adding additional clearance at the same time.

 

Awesome post as always, thank you very much for the excellent detail, photos and links, especially. A lot of posts mention this part or that add-on but do not embed the URL. Might as well not submit the comment, imho. I'll be implementing a lot of your mods when I finally get my S22 Pro as well.

 

[Rollin-on-1]

9 hours ago, Crab said:

I put 20 miles on it tonight and it was down to 30 percent or so.

Was this from a full charge?  That range is lower than I expected.  What was your starting and ending voltage?  

[Crab]

16 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Was this from a full charge?  That range is lower than I expected.  What was your starting and ending voltage?  

No I put a total of 41 miles in 3 rides. It was down to about 30 percent when I got back to my truck last night with legs of rubber lol. 105 ish volts I think.

[Rollin-on-1]

2 minutes ago, Crab said:

No I put a total of 41 miles in 3 rides. It was down to about 30 percent when I got back to my truck last night with legs of rubber lol. 105 ish volts I think.

That's better.  I want it to be a 45 mile wheel for me.  Sounds feasible.  I haven't seen range tests with the 4kw motor and 40T cells, so your feedback is much appreciated!

[Crab]

25 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

That's better.  I want it to be a 45 mile wheel for me.  Sounds feasible.  I haven't seen range tests with the 4kw motor and 40T cells, so your feedback is much appreciated!

I should add that most of yesterday was 16mph average in the app, peak speed was 26.2. The speed that I saw the most looking down while on the Centennial trail was between 32-38 kph.

[Rawnei]

Of course it comes down to speed but from normal riding you should get at the least around 80km (50miles) of range.