Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Blunzn]

6 hours ago, Flygonial said:

Spent five hours of my life

you'll get faster after some trys   last full tire swap was in ~1h30min with some minor cleaning. with 2 motors and mudguards you could do <30min quickswaps ...

Edited April 17, 2023 by Blunzn

[Flygonial]

35 minutes ago, Blunzn said:

you'll get faster after some trys   last full tire swap was in ~1h30min with some minor cleaning. with 2 motors and mudguards you could do <30min quickswaps ...

Makes sense ah. I did also happen to spend a chunk of time wiping down the slider channels (didn’t thoroughly strip off stock lube last time), looking around for tools, and installing the sliders. If I’d just gone in to swap tires I imagine I’d still be at an unimpressive 3-3.5 hours .

[Crab]

4 hours ago, oekmekci said:

How would you compare 244 to 241?

No idea, haven’t tried the 241.

[Crab]

1 minute ago, Flygonial said:

Makes sense ah. I did also happen to spend a chunk of time wiping down the slider channels (didn’t thoroughly strip off stock lube last time), looking around for tools, and installing the sliders. If I’d just gone in to swap tires I imagine I’d still be at an unimpressive 3-3.5 hours .

Gun cleaning rods

[ride INMOTION]

On 10/14/2021 at 7:22 AM, Lukasz said:

I hope KingSong finds somebody with good enough English to continue being "interface" between Chinese team and rest of the world - boss of KingSong shall have some obvious thoughts by now that such person and direct feedback from key customers helps in growing business and development / new constructions. 

yes right @Lukasz,good suggestion,thanks

[Elliott Reitz]

BUMP!

Remember the S20 S22 torque testing motors?  THIS is the ultimate method to "torque test" the old S20 motors (just after 3:15 in this vid). I put the pins in it myself, knobby, kickstand, seat, etc. After this overtorque cutout (repeatedly same spot), I believe the pins with original glue worked. This is the original S20 used by AlienRides Channel demo and auctioned to benefit the Ukrainians escaping the war zone. at 3:22 you can hear it snap twice as the torque demand exceeds the motor's ability.  The transistors were fine, but that is how many transistors used to get blown.  It is the 4th controller I've had.  The original controller bricked after the S20 fire in NYC and emergency firmware update.  Well that bricked it till well 4th controller.

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Elliott Reitz
+

[Taras]

[techyiam]

It is really encouraging to see that Kingsong is making a push to resolve some of the remaining issues. Hopefully, the motor is finally a reliable one.

[Crab]

On 8/12/2023 at 7:49 AM, techyiam said:

It is really encouraging to see that Kingsong is making a push to resolve some of the remaining issues. Hopefully, the motor is finally a reliable one.

I don't feel the same, at 2550 miles my bms crapped out during a simple update and won't respond now, error 27.

[Tawpie]

10 minutes ago, Crab said:

I don't feel the same, at 2550 miles my bms crapped out during a simple update and won't respond now, error 27.

Jason is losing money on you...

 

[Crab]

Yea I think so, but he does have outstanding customer support!

[Rawnei]

I love my S22 with the Pro motor, I really do, even owning a Sherman S and Patton I very much enjoy riding it, but there are 2 things I wish King Song would put some effort into:

1) Making a stronger upgraded controller, low speed torque is very good now with newer motor but it could use a bit more speed.

2) Proper working progressive PWM/Safety Margin based tiltback.

This was from a ride I did just now and goes to show why having EUC World alarms are so crucial and why having a speed based tiltback really is useless:

In comparison safety margin seems to drastically go down as speed goes up:

[okvp]

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

I love my S22 with the Pro motor, I really do, even owning a Sherman S and Patton I very much enjoy riding it, but there are 2 things I wish King Song would put some effort into:

1) Making a stronger upgraded controller, low speed torque is very good now with newer motor but it could use a bit more speed.

2) Proper working progressive PWM/Safety Margin based tiltback.

This was from a ride I did just now and goes to show why having EUC World alarms are so crucial and why having a speed based tiltback really is useless:

 

Yes! I would buy that kind of upgrade kit. Only thing which is making KS22PRO less than it's 16" rivals is the lack of torque compared to them. Also the PWM is important.

If torque could be upped to the level that over powering the wheel would not even be possible, let's say under 60km/h, it would be just perfect at least for me.

I have done sliders and bolts, switch to the Rock shox, waterproofed controller box, done pads and Shinko 241 for my KS22PRO and now it's best trail wheel on the market except the torque.

What I would need also is a snappy small form factor 16" under 25kg city suspension wheel, which would be fun to do tricks with. Easy to toss trunk of the car or with public transport and  no need to have extra insurance of 2024 EU regulations (under 25kg).

That wheel could be Kingsong S18 modified to 16", samsung 50s batteries, with torque tweaked firmware/ motherboard, flat sides for custom pads, under 25kg and optional 25km/h firmware.

Edited October 5, 2023 by okvp

[Rawnei]

27 minutes ago, okvp said:

Yes! I would buy that kind of upgrade kit. Only thing which is making KS22PRO less than it's 16" rivals is the lack of torque compared to them. Also the PWM is important.

If torque could be upped to the level that over powering the wheel would not even be possible, let's say under 60km/h, it would be just perfect at least for me.

I have done sliders and bolts, switch to the Rock shox, waterproofed controller box, done pads and Shinko 241 for my KS22PRO and now it's best trail wheel on the market except the torque.

What I would need also is a snappy small form factor 16" under 25kg city suspension wheel, which would be fun to do tricks with. Easy to toss trunk of the car or with public transport and  no need to have extra insurance of 2024 EU regulations (under 25kg).

That wheel could be Kingsong S18 modified to 16", samsung 50s batteries, with torque tweaked firmware/ motherboard, flat sides for custom pads, under 25kg and optional 25km/h firmware.

I disagree that torque is lacking on the Pro motor, I think it's rather good. 😁

[okvp]

23 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

I disagree that torque is lacking on the Pro motor, I think it's rather good. 😁

I haven't got it over torqued, but motor is making nasty noise when leaning hard on a very steep hill.  Wrong Way Adam got pedals dipped during acceleration. I (88kg +gear) just can't trust the wheel enough when accelerating hard, there is always fear of cut out and face plant.

Extreme has a 16" wheel and C40 40mm magnets (S22pro 33mm), by direct assumption that means 30% more torque, of course the controller and coils affect the torque more or less equally.

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, okvp said:

there is always fear of cut out and face plant.

haha, another forum member wondered where my fear of overleans and cutoffs come from? this forum on a daily basis and those x-rays get permanently embedded in my mind. i do everything i can not to overstess these weak on the low end wheels. including the v13, s22, s18. a leaking tire unbeknownst to me on my v13 caused a forward dip that almost stopped my heart.

[Rawnei]

4 hours ago, okvp said:

I haven't got it over torqued, but motor is making nasty noise when leaning hard on a very steep hill.  Wrong Way Adam got pedals dipped during acceleration. I (88kg +gear) just can't trust the wheel enough when accelerating hard, there is always fear of cut out and face plant.

Extreme has a 16" wheel and C40 40mm magnets (S22pro 33mm), by direct assumption that means 30% more torque, of course the controller and coils affect the torque more or less equally.

Weird flex, I have a Patton, strongest wheel on the market, comparing my S22 Pro motor to my Patton I really don't feel like the Pro motor is lacking torque but ok, we can agree to disagree, I weight around ~105kg geared.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Rawnei

[okvp]

37 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Weird flex, I have a Patton, strongest wheel on the market, comparing my S22 Pro motor to my Patton I really don't feel like the Pro motor is lacking torque but ok, we can agree to disagree, I weight around ~105kg geared.

If you don't need more torque it's good for you. I'like to accelerate and brake hard as I can and do it safely, that's why the torque. Pro has a lots of torque but it has it's limit like WW found out, Patton's limits are probably much more higher. 

[techyiam]

8 hours ago, okvp said:

Patton's limits are probably much more higher. 

But @Rawnei owns both the Patton and the S22+Pro-motor and has been riding them.

Do you own a Patton?

He owns both, so he can provide a data point.

If you also own a Patton, you can also provide a data point that may or may not contradict his experience. It wouldn't matter since it would be a data point.

If enough people chime in, then perhaps a meaningful conclusion can be drawn.

Incidentally, I briefly test rode a Patton, and I wasn't able to make it accelerate exceptionally well. Yes, it was better than the Sherman S. But it wasn't like bat-out-hell exceptional. This isn't a data point since I don't own a Patton, nor does my S22 have a Pro motor.

Acceleration isn't only about just the torque of the motor. Case in point, Kuji Rolls on a borrowed 100V Sherman S in NYC blew away an infamous rider on a 134 V Master Pro. A rider needs also be able to access the torque. So there is rider skill, to be sure, but also the ease of acceleration of the machine, which is dictated by the firmware.

Edited October 6, 2023 by techyiam

[Tawpie]

5 minutes ago, techyiam said:

my S22

I've been away for far too long it would seem 

[DjPanJan]

4 minutes ago, techyiam said:

But @Rawnei owns both the Patton and the S22+Pro-motor and has been riding them.

Do you own a Patton?

He owns both, so he can provide a data point.

If you also own a Patton, you can also provide a data point that may or may not contradict his experience. It wouldn't matter since it would be a data point.

If enough people chime in, then perhaps a meaningful conclusion can be drawn.

Incidentally, I briefly test rode a Patton, and I wasn't able to make it accelerate exceptionally well. Yes, it was better than the Sherman S. But it wasn't like bat-out-hell exceptional. This isn't a data point since I don't own a Patton, nor does my S22 have a Pro motor.

Acceleration isn't only about just the torque of the motor. Case in point, Kuji Rolls on a borrowed 100V Sherman S in NYC blows away an infamous rider on a 134 V Master Pro. A rider needs also be able to access the torque. So there is rider skill, to be sure, but also ease of acceleration of the machine, which is dictated by the firmware.

Try soft mode on paton all my EUC ever i ride on hard mode patton soft is "unique" i am on stock FW (loud beeps). 

My powerpad position is neutral i touch only if hard lean and hard brake original jump pad i removed but i keep palstic jumpad holder becasue is big structural pad and part of pattonh body.

PAtton soft mode give me "feel" efortless acaleration jame lik kingsong or gotway hard mode just strange. 

 

[mrelwood]

 

12 hours ago, Rawnei said:

This was from a ride I did just now and goes to show why having EUC World alarms are so crucial and why having a speed based tiltback really is useless:

 

I do agree with you that all manufacturers should switch to pure PWM based tilt-backs and warnings. It is simply better on all accounts. But to call the current systems useless is a bit brash.

I haven’t examined the S22 implementation, but traditionally IM and KS warnings and tilt-back have been based on speed, battery voltage, motor current, and the overall motor power usage. Among several things unrelated to the actual riding performance. I wouldn’t expect KS to have lessened the parameters that engage the tilt-back on the S22.

 It isn’t perfect, but it is very very far from being useless either. Begode’s tilt-back is what used to be based on a fixed speed (until they only very recently introduced a dynamic tilt-back feature). Now that was useless.

 On the 18XL it has been said that the warnings and tilt-back are enforced at 88% of the maximum power (or was it PWM? Not sure.) Your dip into 20% of course isn’t the safest out there, but in that sense it isn’t the most dangerous situation either. The static safety margin at those speeds isn’t all that great either, so you only used roughly half of what was available. I know that you know the available power to drop significantly at speed, and that to ride accordingly.

[fbhb]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

my S22

4 hours ago, Tawpie said:

I've been away for far too long it would seem 

Very strange 180degree turnaround indeed! Especially after All the constant S22 bashing he dished out at every given opportunity! 

Edited October 6, 2023 by fbhb

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

my S22

I've been away for far too long it would seem 

Just bought it.

It's my first suspension wheel. I got the suspension to work well enough for me now. I don't feel the jolts, nor do I get destabilized by the undulations. Not having to constantly scanning the road surface ahead for danger is nice. I don't think I need a cushier suspension.

However, since my main wheel has been the Abrams, after my first ride on my S22, I am finding that the S22 is relatively twitchy, and lacking in acceleration and braking. It's an intuitive wheel to ride for me though. Mind you, a rounder tire profile, and power pads may improve things for me.

I am afraid I am now more of a big wheel kind of rider. Yeah, I need to put in more time. But if I were to upgrade straight from my V12, I think I would be singing a different tune.

After having worked on the S22, I find that generally, the build quality of the S22 is higher than the V12 overall. I suspect considerable effort went in designing the S20. Like many have said, servicing the S22 is more pleasant than on other wheels. Surprisingly, I find the aluminum alloy not as soft as some of its competitors. There are definitely good stuff here.

Having said that though, it is inconceivable that Kingsong went with that slider design as implemented and assembled as how I unboxed it. I think this was the biggest undoing of the S20/S22. The next big misstep was using a weak controller. Slipping stator can be chopped up to QC or taking short cuts and not putting in the pins. But with the release of the Hou Ningning roller sliders, things have gotten better.

Now I have to wait for the next Challenger to be released.  

 

 

 

[techyiam]

6 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

Try soft mode on paton all my EUC ever i ride on hard mode patton soft is "unique" i am on stock FW (loud beeps). 

My powerpad position is neutral i touch only if hard lean and hard brake original jump pad i removed but i keep palstic jumpad holder becasue is big structural pad and part of pattonh body.

PAtton soft mode give me "feel" efortless acaleration jame lik kingsong or gotway hard mode just strange. 

 

Interesting.

I actually did try the "Soft", Medium" and "Strong" modes. However, I wasn't able to find significant improvement. Mind you, I did not spend a lot of time on it, since it wasn't my wheel.

Thanks for the insight. I need to look into it further.