Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[okvp]

20 minutes ago, techyiam said:

In my experience, on wheels that have a tendency to wobble, what you said holds true. There are a number of techniques that could help tone down the wobbles. 

However, one can also work on the wheel itself, to make the tendency less.

The V12 is a perfect example of a wheel that has a tendency to wobble.  But through firmware settings, pedal height adjustments, and riding techniques, those wobbles can be tamed.

The S22 is an example of a wheel that doesn't have a tendency to wobble. I rode it with different feet placements, and various other riding styles,and I have never experienced a wobble.

I don't understand how firmware settings can have any affects to the wobbles? However the tire has a lot of effects on both wobble and train tracking, a knobby is not as sensitive as a road tire, I have experience with both (Michelin City grip 2 and Shinko SR241).

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, okvp said:

I don't understand how firmware settings can have any affects to the wobbles? However the tire has a lot of effects on both wobble and train tracking, a knobby is not as sensitive as a road tire, I have experience with both (Michelin City grip 2 and Shinko SR241).

It is very obvious on the V12. I have been confirming this over a 2 year period in which I have play with different firmware versions, and multitudes of settings. The wobbles can altered from death wobbles to slight wobble tendencies. My V12 is all stock except for tire and inner tube. And I have added the Inmotion branded honeycomb pedals and pads. Even it was all stock, it behaved similarly.

With regards to knobby and street tires, I don't have experience here. Good to know.

I noticed that after putting an aftermarket scooter tire on the V12, the ride became better over most types of bumps, and felt more stable. However, I did not observed significant reduction or increase in wobble tendencies.

My Abrams also have strong wobble tendencies during braking above 50 km/h. Firmware settings has some influence. And riding style can suppress wobbles.

[okvp]

24 minutes ago, techyiam said:

It is very obvious on the V12. I have been confirming this over a 2 year period in which I have play with different firmware versions, and multitudes of settings. The wobbles can altered from death wobbles to slight wobble tendencies. My V12 is all stock except for tire and inner tube. And I have added the Inmotion branded honeycomb pedals and pads. Even it was all stock, it behaved similarly.

With regards to knobby and street tires, I don't have experience here. Good to know.

I noticed that after putting an aftermarket scooter tire on the V12, the ride became better over most types of bumps, and felt more stable. However, I did not observed significant reduction or increase in wobble tendencies.

My Abrams also have strong wobble tendencies during braking above 50 km/h. Firmware settings has some influence. And riding style can suppress wobbles.

Yes, it seems possible, e.g. if the firmware changes the pedals to less sensitive, i.e. softer, it can probably have an effect on the characteristic frequency that induces wobble.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, okvp said:

Yes, it seems possible, e.g. if the firmware changes the pedals to less sensitive, i.e. softer, it can probably have an effect on the characteristic frequency that induces wobble.

All I know is that it does. I have no idea as to the how.

[Elliott Reitz]

On 11/17/2023 at 12:50 PM, okvp said:

I don't understand how firmware settings can have any affects to the wobbles? However the tire has a lot of effects on both wobble and train tracking, a knobby is not as sensitive as a road tire, I have experience with both (Michelin City grip 2 and Shinko SR241).

There are frequencies that can resonate between FW and wobbles.  On my BG Master the motor&rim are off balance by about 1.5 oz.  It was totally frustrating figuring that out as I went through 3 tire changes (stock Kenda 342, Shinko SR244, and Michelin Pilot Sreet 2).  The Shinko tire was most forgiving of the motor's imbalance like at > 40 mph its band of treads stuck to the ground and floated around the wheel so it didn't wobble as much.  On the other tires I was blessed to figure out the motor/rim was off balance by about 1.5 oz opposite the valve stem.  My other wheels are much closer to true (1/4 oz weight hard to tell if its worth having).  

[Planemo]

7 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

On the other tires I was blessed to figure out the motor/rim was off balance by about 1.5 oz opposite the valve stem. 

Indeed, prob a good time to post up the old euc balancing hack that I used myself on my MSX and it did work:

 

[Elliott Reitz]

9 hours ago, Planemo said:

Indeed, prob a good time to post up the old euc balancing hack that I used myself on my MSX and it did work:

 

That's excellent!  My method was free-spin trial/error.  I got lucky with initial guesses.  

[techyiam]

12 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

My method was free-spin trial/error.  I got lucky with initial guesses.

Sounds like you were crazy lucky when you put on a balancing weight randomly on the rim. What were the odds of being right?

Edited November 19, 2023 by techyiam

[novazeus]

 

[ffontana]

On 11/19/2023 at 5:26 PM, techyiam said:

Sounds like you were crazy lucky when you put on a balancing weight randomly on the rim. What were the odds of being right?

Not really lucky. It's quite simple.

Unbalanced wheel is not evident at 10-20 kmh spinning, but it's very noticeable all full speed air spinning (118kmh my s22).

So, First try with 40g weight on each quarter of the rim and check on which one is most noticeable the decrease of vibration at full throttle air spining. Once you know the right quarter of the rim, repeat the process on every quarter of this quarter (in this two iteration you have a precition of 1/16 of the wheel circumference). Now you have the place, try with 20g more or less to see if it gets better or worse.

I did it time ago. The difference is great at full speed air spinning. No more vibration at high speed riding.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by ffontana

[techyiam]

44 minutes ago, ffontana said:

So, First try with 40g weight on each quarter of the rim and check on which one is most noticeable the decrease of vibration at full throttle air spining. Once you know the right quarter of the rim, repeat the process on every quarter of this quarter (in this two iteration you have a precition of 1/16 of the wheel circumference). Now you have the place, try with 20g more or less to see if it gets better or worse.

Divide and conquer approach. Sound simple and effective without the need to buy special tools.

[Josh P]

Anybody updated to V235? How’d it go?

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, Josh P said:

Anybody updated to V235? How’d it go?

I have. 

It went smoothly. But mind you, all my firmware updates have gone smoothly, including the one for the BMS. I make sure there is no bluetooth interference due to other devices around, and I use a OnePlus 7T.

I like firmware version 2.35 so far.

The headlight brightness can now be adjusted from 50% to 100%.

And acceleration is peppier, along with stronger braking. I think Kingsong improved "ease of acceleration, or braking". For my style and pad setup, for a particular amount of effort, I can accelerate or brake so quickly. Well, now when I accelerate or brake in exactly the same way, the wheel goes quicker or stops quicker.

I manly ride around town.

Motor noise seemed to have changed. It sounds more quiet and refined? The power delivery seemed to be a touch smoother too?

Range may have improved, if that is possible? But I need to ride more to be sure.

I just rode in 1 C on a common route that I take. Normally, none of my trips on the S22 consume no bars. But after the firmware update, I came back from a trip will all the bars still there. I need to keep an eye on that. I was pleasantly surprised.

One thing that I have been a bit disappointed is that the range on the 2220 Wh S22 is about the same as my 1750 Wh V12 when ridden below 30 km/h. And when ridden spiritedly, the range can be a lot worse than the V12. This is when both wheels are ridden side-by-side with the heavier rider on the V12.

[Josh P]

That’s good to hear, specifically about the braking. Thanks 

[PourUC]

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

I have. 

It went smoothly. But mind you, all my firmware updates have gone smoothly, including the one for the BMS. I make sure there is no bluetooth interference due to other devices around, and I use a OnePlus 7T.

I like firmware version 2.35 so far.

The headlight brightness can now be adjusted from 50% to 100%.

And acceleration is peppier, along with stronger braking. I think Kingsong improved "ease of acceleration, or braking". For my style and pad setup, for a particular amount of effort, I can accelerate or brake so quickly. Well, now when I accelerate or brake in exactly the same way, the wheel goes quicker or stops quicker.

I manly ride around town.

Motor noise seemed to have changed. It sounds more quiet and refined? The power delivery seemed to be a touch smoother too?

Range may have improved, if that is possible? But I need to ride more to be sure.

I just rode in 1 C on a common route that I take. Normally, none of my trips on the S22 consume no bars. But after the firmware update, I came back from a trip will all the bars still there. I need to keep an eye on that. I was pleasantly surprised.

One thing that I have been a bit disappointed is that the range on the 2220 Wh S22 is about the same as my 1750 Wh V12 when ridden below 30 km/h. And when ridden spiritedly, the range can be a lot worse than the V12. This is when both wheels are ridden side-by-side with the heavier rider on the V12.

Are these definitely side-by-side riding?

I have a friend with a V12 and the range comparison seems really good at first. The V12 holds high % for ages, but then it starts to plummet. Drop well below where I am on the S22. If he rides at my pace he is always doing the limp home whilst I am still not worried about my own range on the S22 (with pro motor).

Also, I have been going through the updates as they come out basically. I don't think this update is any peppier or has any better efficiency over the previous. update.

If anything, I don't think any update this year has improved efficiency but some have added or taken away 'pep' feeling.

When I compare my average commute from now vs in July I am getting roughly the same power usage. I do remember a while back an update made it feel much more responsive at lower speeds. That update was the most 'powerful' feeling, since then it has been dialed back a bit.

Range feels the same and looks the same roughly in my daily commute. Looking at ~260wh used on the first leg of my commute across over a year in similar conditions (had a quick check through to verify my feeling).

This update did change the light functionality though =D

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, PourUC said:

Are these definitely side-by-side riding?

Yes.

2 hours ago, PourUC said:

I have a friend with a V12 and the range comparison seems really good at first. The V12 holds high % for ages, but then it starts to plummet. Drop well below where I am on the S22. If he rides at my pace he is always doing the limp home whilst I am still not worried about my own range on the S22 (with pro motor).

We have taken the same route quite a few times.

And the distance we ride is 27 km's. We usually start with fully charged batteries.

If we don't start with full batteries, then the total distance travelled is between 50 and 60 km's. In this scenario, the V12 battery would still have used less battery.

2 hours ago, PourUC said:

If anything, I don't think any update this year has improved efficiency but some have added or taken away 'pep' feeling.

Out of the box, my S22 had poor motor performance (this original firmware was old), and disaster suspension performance. After updating to the next available firmware, motor performance improved.

However, updating firmware after that to firmware version 2.33, I did not noticed any performance improvement.

2 hours ago, PourUC said:

If anything, I don't think any update this year has improved efficiency but some have added or taken away 'pep' feeling.

True, same here, prior to firmware 2.35, except I did not lose motor performance.

2 hours ago, PourUC said:

When I compare my average commute from now vs in July I am getting roughly the same power usage. I do remember a while back an update made it feel much more responsive at lower speeds. That update was the most 'powerful' feeling, since then it has been dialed back a bit.

My range has always been disappointing compared to my V12 since unboxing two months ago when temperature range from about 8 C to 15C. More recently, temperatures have dropped down to between 4 C to 10 C. All this is before firmware version 2.35

My first ride after updating to firmware v 2.35 was in 1 C, my range seemed to have improved significantly based on data from two rides: roughly 15 km's, and 10 km's. I lost one bar after about 25 km's. Since the wheel was peppier, I rode a bit faster and quicker than usual. 

I also use the Kingsong app to the check battery voltage and % remaining. I have about 90 % SOC after 15 km's of riding in 1 C.

On both the V12 and S22, losing 1% battery per km is considered good.

 

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Josh P said:

That’s good to hear, specifically about the braking. Thanks 

The braking on my S22 is quite strong now.

I am still using stock pads, but only the top pads. And the top pad is affixed on the wheel with the top of the pad in a horizontal position.

In emergency braking, I sit right down and slide back.

 

[Josh P]

I’m overall very happy with the performance of the S22, but I do find the braking to be…not the best. Looking forward to seeing if I notice a difference. 

[Crab]

Bms update bricked my batteries mid summer

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Crab said:

Bms update bricked my batteries mid summer

I heard about that early on. Sorry to hear.

I watched Denis Hagov's video and heard his own experience, and he said he was finally successful using his son's OnePlus smartphone. So I did too. This is only anecdotal.

I did mine in October. By then, maybe Kingsong has improve things too.

[litewave]

Changes in FW 2.3.5:

[techyiam]

1 minute ago, litewave said:

Changes in FW 2.3.5:

 

I read that before I flashed firmware version 2.35.

But I sort of read the increase in output part with a grain of salt. This is because usually, it doesn't pan out.

This time, however, to my pleasant surprise, there was something.  

The part about BMS warning message is real. I got a BMS warning message that wasn't there before.

The message was accurate too. I was do something outside of spec.. Before version 2.35,  it didn't complain. Now, it caught me and warn me, and won't stop until the condition is removed.

[OliG]

Firmware update cm 2.35 done yesterday without any problem. 

Change log available as already reported :

1. Correction of energy consumption in cycling logs,

2. increase of forward and feedback energy consumption,

3. and configuration of serial number with Bluetooth name & version 

 

I always love these very explicit change log 😂😂😂

No noticeable change in wheel behavior after a quick first ride post-update. 

Note: when the wheel is on and not moving, before displaying the remaining battery icon, the display now also shows the percentage of remaining battery . 

 

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, OliG said:

Note: when the wheel is on and not moving, before displaying the remaining battery icon, the display now also shows the percentage of remaining battery . 

I found this useful.

And it reports the lower SOC of the two battery packs.

Edited December 3, 2023 by techyiam

[novazeus]

yeah, haha, the battery percentage thing is cool, at first i thought it was some error code!

now that mine is all apart, is there anyway to manually balance the battery packs?

my battery pack two always reaches 100% before battery pack one so the charger stops when two hits 100% and leaves one at 97%. course listening to a blurb from elon, i shouldn't be charging over 80% anyway. 

i don't want to start a fire, but with the motor out and everything else still connected, what would happen if i disconnected the two battery pack and tried to charge the one battery pack individually? or drain the two battery pack down? hasn't been an issue, but since it's apart, i thought i'd ask.

i know one thing, after 400 or so miles, it sure is filthy.