Jan 2020 best Kingsong commuter. 16X or 18XL?

[mike_bike_kite]

11 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

To me, sub 3-inch wheels are dead.

Perhaps you should carry one of your 3" wheels up a couple of flights of stairs, then walk it through a shopping mall and finally finish with a nice coffee at the back of a crowded coffee house. Those sub 3" wheels might start to appeal again

[Unventor]

5 hours ago, null said:

I only did a bit of distance on the 16X but found it very comfortable and reactive. The 18XL is more stable for long distance though but as a urban commuter the 16X is probably superior. Or the 16S if you need to carry it. /2c

I fully agree that at 30-35kmh the KS16X feels safer as in it brakes hard in case off an emergency. On the other hand you are riding more in terms of mc lean style which makes me riding at less speed as to Mr it feels more on the edge of "control" yet stable. I can't explain much better than this. But it is the thrill of sensing force in turning and acceleration and braking. 

If it is actually safer, I can't say but it makes me less likely to "speeding". So my personal opinion it is the thrills that give the fun factor. In an emergency who knows what happens. But I ride more consciously to avoid put myself in a bad possion or situation. It took me about 300km to adapt and getting used to the sensation. But I love the sensation. And my smile on my face is ever present. It takes away the need for speed for me totally. 

Now some will find this not to their liking. That is why I agree with @Mike Sacristan the KS16X is not a wheel for all. In that respect the KS18L/XL is a safer purchase. Will it bring same joy... Depends. The KS18L/XL is a faster choice by design in terms of riding top speed limit safe, from faceplant. 

[rolekl]

How's the weather proofing of the 18xl? I'm looking for a faster wheel than the v5f for next spring, but the 16x is currently off the table due to the poor sealing. I can't have a wheel that kills itself in rain.

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, rolekl said:

How's the weather proofing of the 18xl? I'm looking for a faster wheel than the v5f for next spring, but the 16x is currently off the table due to the poor sealing. I can't have a wheel that kills itself in rain.

it does not have an actural seal but I have ridden my KS18L in some fairly heavy rain. No issues. I did get an EUC bodyguard for it, it might have helped. The case design helps for it to withstand water, but keep in mind no actual seal anywhere. 

On a side note for wany wheel, if you hgave ridden in rain/though water pools/wet roads, then don't lay the wheel down on it side...ever. If you do, you have a high risk water will finds its way in a crack/case part joining and finds way to pleace you don want. I always store my wheel atlease 30 min in upright "balanced" posision for water to run off case (inside wheel area and outside on case).

That said we (a select few withh this intrest) have given input for rain cover option for KS16X, might work for KS18XL too. ask @The Fat Unicyclist for more details. I think we came up with do real good ideas. I can say there are options for this, but nothing as good as we brainstormed. Right now I have a raincover for a backpack I use. it is not Ideal, but works. 

[seage]

Yeah, so im very very curious about the speed throttling. Especially since, I personally (being on the heavier side) have never had any problems with overpowering the wheel at lower battery percentages even riding pretty fast. It seemed to work quite well, kicking in under 25% and i always felt safe. But 50% would be kinda jarring. 

[Marty Backe]

7 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Perhaps you should carry one of your 3" wheels up a couple of flights of stairs, then walk it through a shopping mall and finally finish with a nice coffee at the back of a crowded coffee house. Those sub 3" wheels might start to appeal again

Oh I get it. If you need that kind of wheel then buy one with a puny tire. But I'm talking about performance wheels.

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, seage said:

Yeah, so im very very curious about the speed throttling. Especially since, I personally (being on the heavier side) have never had any problems with overpowering the wheel at lower battery percentages even riding pretty fast. It seemed to work quite well, kicking in under 25% and i always felt safe. But 50% would be kinda jarring. 

I put this very simple to you. Do not buy a KS period. 

Just buy as GW. KS isn't build for running at top speed all the time. Even KS people have said so, if your focus is speed, do not buy their wheels. 

Speed throttling, like it or not it there to maintain some level of safety. 

People that choose a KS wheel, need to accept that this KS priority, end of story. 

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

8 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Perhaps you should carry one of your 3" wheels up a couple of flights of stairs, then walk it through a shopping mall and finally finish with a nice coffee at the back of a crowded coffee house. Those sub 3" wheels might start to appeal again

Oh I get it. If you need that kind of wheel then buy one with a puny tire. But I'm talking about performance wheels.

It's worth remembering that this tire width conversation is somewhat fixed on current wheels with 3" tires, which happen to be performance wheels. In the future we could very well see 16" (or even 14"), non performance wheels with 3" tires and less than 1,000Wh batteries, who knows...If they're more stable, easier and more fun to ride...why not?

P.S. @Mortal Coil welcome to electricunicycle.org's infinite supply of off-topic tangents...

Edited January 4, 2020 by travsformation

[Mortal Coil]

27 minutes ago, travsformation said:

P.S. @Mortal Coil welcome to electricunicycle.org's infinite supply of off-topic tangents...

Yes, the thread has taken a tangent.

It is still orbiting the nub of my original question, however, which is: Is the 16X with its wider tyre but raft of potential issues preferable to the 18XL with its narrower tyre but proven reliability?

[RoadRunner]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

I put this very simple to you. Do not buy a KS period. 

Just buy as GW. KS isn't build for running at top speed all the time. Even KS people have said so, if your focus is speed, do not buy their wheels. 

Speed throttling, like it or not it there to maintain some level of safety. 

People that choose a KS wheel, need to accept that this KS priority, end of story. 

Dude chill out, i think you got this wrong.

@seage started with EUCs on a KS16S and upgraded to a KS18XL and i think he is very happy with his KS18XL and how it performs.

He just said that he doesn’t want to be throttled at 50%, which i totally agree.

Throttling at 25% that’s why people love the XL. 

[travsformation]

10 hours ago, Mortal Coil said:

Yes, the thread has taken a tangent.

They all do. I've yet to see the exception...

10 hours ago, Mortal Coil said:

It is still orbiting the nub of my original question, however, which is: Is the 16X with its wider tyre but raft of potential issues preferable to the 18XL with its narrower tyre but proven reliability?

Yeah, it actually is, which is surprising. It could have very well turned into a 12-page rabbit-hole on motor control signal frequency, DIY rain covers or even Batmobiles...

BTW, you've really done your homework!

I personally enjoy the 18XL enormously. It has never failed me, never cutout, has tackled everything I've thrown at it, taken a fair share of abuse and runs as smoothly as day 1. And just as importantly, it's been a daily mode of transportation that has completely changed the way I commute and run errands (making it fun!), and has yielded all kinds of new & fun exploration opportunities (believe me, you'll be glad to have the extra range)

I ordered the 16X being just as aware of its potential shortcomings ans risks as you are now, and if I do encounter any issues, I'll just have to adapt to the wheel's limitations. There's always a trade-off somewhere: the 18XL has a better reliability, fail-safe track record, but the 16X would appear to be the more versatile option that most riders favour. But as a new rider, I don't think you can go wrong with either one of them.

My suggestion: instead of selling the SUV and buying a smaller, cheaper car + 1 wheel, sell it and buy both wheels!

Edited January 4, 2020 by travsformation

[travsformation]

15 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

Throttling at 25% that’s why people love the XL. 

Amen to that!

[mrelwood]

10 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Perhaps you should carry one of your 3" wheels up a couple of flights of stairs, then walk it through a shopping mall and finally finish with a nice coffee at the back of a crowded coffee house. Those sub 3" wheels might start to appeal again

Nah, he’ll just take the Mten!

[seage]

5 hours ago, Unventor said:

I put this very simple to you. Do not buy a KS period. 

Just buy as GW. KS isn't build for running at top speed all the time. Even KS people have said so, if your focus is speed, do not buy their wheels. 

Speed throttling, like it or not it there to maintain some level of safety. 

People that choose a KS wheel, need to accept that this KS priority, end of story. 

Lol, are you mad at me? A bit late, I already have almost 6000km on a kingsong. Roadrunner got it right:  

3 hours ago, RoadRunner said:

Dude chill out, i think you got this wrong.

@seage started with EUCs on a KS16S and upgraded to a KS18XL and i think he is very happy with his KS18XL and how it performs.

He just said that he doesn’t want to be throttled at 50%, which i totally agree.

Throttling at 25% that’s why people love the XL. 

This is exactly it. I love how it is throttled right now with it at 25%. I've never once talked about being a speed demon. I mentioned "even riding pretty fast" in relation to not getting tilt back.  I never said a word about wanting to ride at top speed all the time. I only spoke on throttling and how i enjoy where it is now. I bought this wheel BECAUSE it was safe. Sure I have my complaints in certain areas but that doesnt mean I hate my wheel or Kingsong as a brand. 25% throttling is one of the things I really love about the wheel because at the speeds I run, I close to never hit it. I have a pebble and vocal alerts so I'm always monitoring . Overall i love my wheel, but I feel I had a legitimate question about the upcoming firmware update to our wheels.

Anyways mate, not sure what the issue is, but i'm not trying to argue or debate with you on any topic. I'm just here to get information, have a laugh and get excited with like-minded enthusiasts. Thats it. 

[AtlasP]

I am so torn regarding tire width. The extra cushion of the 3" tires is nice, but it can't be overstated how much nimbleness you lose in turning which has never been satisfactorily addressed/resolved. (The somewhat-misnamed "gyroscopic effect" is very real and I agree with those who think it sucks/can hinder riding enjoyment.) If you just want to ride as a means of transportation the extra shock absorption may be worth it, but if you love carving man do the thinner tires/thinner overall-wheels feel so much nicer to carve and turn. Ultimately I agree with those voting for the 18XL (assuming we're only talking about 84v options).

Anyone arguing in favor of only 3"-wide tires sound like someone arguing that all cars should be SUVs. Of course an SUV has its advantages in floatiness, but there are reasons some people still prefer the agility/handling of sports cars.

Edited January 6, 2020 by AtlasP

[Seba]

6 hours ago, Mortal Coil said:

It is still orbiting the nub of my original question, however, which is: Is the 16X with its wider tyre but raft of potential issues preferable to the 18XL with its narrower tyre but proven reliability?

I'll take it short - you can't go wrong with neither wheel. KS-18XL is more mature wheel, with proven reliability track. Both wheels are very similar in size and weight, despite of different rim diameter. KS-16X is slightly bulkier, while KS-18XL is slimmier and little more ergonomic. KS-16X accelerate and brake better, but KS-18XL will receive new firmware that will make this wheel closer to KS-16X. KS-16X uses beefier, 3" tire which add to riding comfort and especially off-road capabilities. KS-18XL is comfy by default due to it's 18" nature. It's still 2,5" tire that performs worse on loose sand, mud and similar terrain. KS-18XL is a weatherproof wheel, I've rode over 1000 km in rain, including some heavy rains and thunderstorms. Never failed. There has been numerous cases confirming that KS-16X isn't waterproof. 

This comparision could be much longer. For example I didn't referenced to gyroscopic effect found in KS-16X that is nonexistent in KS-18XL. It is something that I didn't liked initially, but after 200 km I just got used to it. A human is a type of animal that will get used to everything and will ultimately enjoy it

[mrelwood]

7 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

I am so torn regarding tire width. The extra cushion of the 3" tires is nice, but it can't be overstated how much nimbleness you lose in turning which has never been resolved. (The somewhat-misnamed "gyroscopic effect" is very real and I agree with those who think it really sucks/hinders riding enjoyment.)

When I converted my 16S to a 2.5” tire back in the day, I do remember being slightly disappointed in that it didn’t carve quite as nice. Took a while, but when I eventually got to try a stock 16S... Man it felt like a toy, carving included! I guess I had learned a technique to carve on the 2.5”.

Anyway, the most spectacular feaure of the 18x3.0 CYT H-666 on the MSX was how it carved and turned. I could take turns with an extraordinary speed! It might not be exactly the same as ”carving”, but it so far it was easiest the most fun riding tire-wheel combination I’ve tried.

[Unventor]

Ok so I try to say this this way then. It is not me being mad at anyone.

The start off question here were to chose between 2 great wheels. Either one will do the job of commuting, so what do you do to pick your choise. Then it went to the topic of speed as this is the major differane in favour for the KS18XL, in terms of top speed.

In ride sensation it is a subjective call, so will love it straight off, some will learn to love it and some will not like it the behavior of KS16X. This is what I love the most of the KS16X. Then there is a minor 2 things, like pedal deployment. the KS16X is a more practical way, that I did't think much of in the beging, but it grew big time upon me. I wisk I could get save on all my wheels, but I am not skilled in modding stuff now have a workshop equiped to do this. The other is Wheel/case size. The KS16X is bulkied/fatter, slightly, but is is short front to back, and that can make a huge differance if you are to store it is a locker room closet.

So now we get to the part where I am saying do you have any issue with top speed and throttling, pick something else. KS made the huge mistake to listen for the outcry for top speed, and this is the culpit of why people have had issues with it. Had they sticked to 45kmh then they could have lowered the stratiing point of the throttling.. Here is also my point that if you ride at top speed near to the limit then you will feel the throttling, I don't so it isn't any issue what so ever. 

Now I started out on a Inmotion V8 it had trottling too, and due to limited battery pack and lower top speed, lower motor power it became an issue. That is why i upgraded.. When you pick a new wheel accept that the wheel to chose from do what they do and make the pick from that. in the end that will drive the development of wheels much smoother than people asking for wheels to change into something they are not. In that aspect is why I say buy a GW. They don't change as they don't have fw upgrade options, and they focus on speed, aka less throtling.

Sidenote (I will quote something that stuck with me frim my previous job in a course ti become teamleader in our call center op 1000+ people, it goess something like this:)

Quote

There are very few evil people with ill intentions in the world. But even with good intentions the excutions is not always right. 

So with that in mind I can only applogize if I came across angry or too direct on/for some people. That is not my intention at all.

In the end I do hope that you got some useful input to your purchase @Mortal Coil. Unfortunatly we don't have a showroom around the corner or a rental business on evey street corner. But one way to help out is meetup or group rides. Here people often lend a wheel from a different rider. Plus sharing of knowledge about wheels happens too. 

I do look forward to hear more about you rides once you have gotten a new wheel @Mortal Coil. Mainly as your question is around how I use my wheels too. 

[Meserias]

dear initiator, I have taken 18XL in rain here in Bucharest, also in deep pools of water...I have no single issue with it ....it's just rock solid wheel.
imagine I can go over 110Km from charge to charge and speed throttling occur when I push the wheel over 30Kmh with only 26-28% battery left.

I also take it into the woods on unpaved dusty forester roads....absolutely no issue with it.
entering it to the mud couple good times until wheel could not spin freely, cleaning it and is absolutely fine.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Meserias

[travsformation]

On 1/3/2020 at 5:15 AM, Marty Backe said:

To me, sub 3-inch wheels are dead.

Since @Rehab1 didn't answer the calling, I had no choice but to do it myself....

Edited January 4, 2020 by travsformation

[Unventor]

3 hours ago, travsformation said:

Since @Rehab1 didn't answer the calling, I had no choice but to do it myself....

You should have taken one of his Z10 photos 😉

[mike_bike_kite]

14 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Nah, he’ll just take the Mten!

I did actually think about that and that's why I included the bit about walking it through a shopping mall. I know 10Kg is light for an EUC but without a handle it's still 10Kg. Then again you guys are probably allowed to ride through these places.

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, travsformation said:

Since @Rehab1 didn't answer the calling, I had no choice but to do it myself....

 All of you guys are crazy 

P.s. That's a damn good imitation of @Rehab1

[Rehab1]

4 hours ago, travsformation said:

Since @Rehab1 didn't answer the calling, I had no choice but to do it myself....

Excellent job!   

[TomOnWheels]

22 hours ago, rolekl said:

How's the weather proofing of the 18xl? I'm looking for a faster wheel than the v5f for next spring, but the 16x is currently off the table due to the poor sealing. I can't have a wheel that kills itself in rain..

I've used it in heavy rain for now almost 2 years. Yesterday I opened it for inspection and there is absolutely no sign  of water damage. I even opened the motor and it's brand new inside. So for me KS18L/XL is 100% safe to run in heavy rain... Also once at home it's very important to keep it vertical and in a dry place.