Jan 2020 best Kingsong commuter. 16X or 18XL?

[Mortal Coil]

[Seba]

13 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

The KS18XL is a great wheel but in my opinion is surpassed by the newer wheels, including the KS16X. I still ride it because I own one, but today, I would not buy it again.

Just wait for 1.14 firmware...  IMO it largely closes the gap (or at least makes this gap much smaller) between KS-16X 2200 W and KS-18XL 2000 W. I'm currently testing this firmware on my wheel and have to say that I'm amazed how much can be made better by just firmware update. For example, with 1.14 the fixed pitch PWM noise is competely gone now. Ride is more pleasant, acceleration and deceleration has noticeably improved. Also I get sensation that wheel behaviour in turns improved, because I can now make tighter turns more easily. This however may be contributed to wheel calibration that was enforced after firmware update (just like with 1.13).

[Marty Backe]

34 minutes ago, Seba said:

Just wait for 1.14 firmware...  IMO it largely closes the gap (or at least makes this gap much smaller) between KS-16X 2200 W and KS-18XL 2000 W. I'm currently testing this firmware on my wheel and have to say that I'm amazed how much can be made better by just firmware update. For example, with 1.14 the fixed pitch PWM noise is competely gone now. Ride is more pleasant, acceleration and deceleration has noticeably improved. Also I get sensation that wheel behaviour in turns improved, because I can now make tighter turns more easily. This however may be contributed to wheel calibration that was enforced after firmware update (just like with 1.13).

What I prefer about the 16X over the 18XL is the beefy tire. Firmware can't fix that 

[TomOnWheels]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

What I prefer about the 16X over the 18XL is the beefy tire. Firmware can't fix that 

Come on @Marty Backe! Everything can be fixed by a firmware update ! ;-) Sometimes I'm quite surprised even what can be. I use to have bluetooth headphones with poor antenna design making it almost unusable with phone in pocket. You know what, they fixed it with firmware update ! :-o

[seage]

1 hour ago, Seba said:

Just wait for 1.14 firmware...  IMO it largely closes the gap (or at least makes this gap much smaller) between KS-16X 2200 W and KS-18XL 2000 W. I'm currently testing this firmware on my wheel and have to say that I'm amazed how much can be made better by just firmware update. For example, with 1.14 the fixed pitch PWM noise is competely gone now. Ride is more pleasant, acceleration and deceleration has noticeably improved. Also I get sensation that wheel behaviour in turns improved, because I can now make tighter turns more easily. This however may be contributed to wheel calibration that was enforced after firmware update (just like with 1.13).

OH shoot, for real?? They actually killed the noise with a firmware update?? How Tf? I know the newer batch of 18XL's are silent, but that has a stronger (and i assumed totally different) motor. I didnt think they could make acceleration and deceleration better after 1.13. That was like getting a new wheel AGAIN. And i get weird pedal dips in tight turns (due to it trying to find the proper angle) you're saying tis actually leveling out better on th ose? Waw.......

[TomOnWheels]

1 hour ago, Seba said:

Just wait for 1.14 firmware...  IMO it largely closes the gap (or at least makes this gap much smaller) between KS-16X 2200 W and KS-18XL 2000 W. I'm currently testing this firmware on my wheel and have to say that I'm amazed how much can be made better by just firmware update. For example, with 1.14 the fixed pitch PWM noise is competely gone now. Ride is more pleasant, acceleration and deceleration has noticeably improved. Also I get sensation that wheel behaviour in turns improved, because I can now make tighter turns more easily. This however may be contributed to wheel calibration that was enforced after firmware update (just like with 1.13).

Seriously @Seba ? Do you know when it will be public ?

[Seba]

15 minutes ago, seage said:

OH shoot, for real?? They actually killed the noise with a firmware update?? How Tf? I know the newer batch of 18XL's are silent, but that has a stronger (and i assumed totally different) motor.

They probably changed frequency of motor control signal.

18 minutes ago, seage said:

I didnt think they could make acceleration and deceleration better after 1.13. That was like getting a new wheel AGAIN. And i get weird pedal dips in tight turns (due to it trying to find the proper angle) you're saying tis actually leveling out better on th ose? Waw.......

It is. Now my KS-18XL reminds me KS-16X from times when I tested it. The problem for me is however that during thousand of kilometers spent on KS-18XL I've developed muscle memory that allowed me to maintain constant speed in different riding conditions. Now I'm getting constant speed alarms. It's just much easier to develop speed than with 1.13. And yes, 1.13 was already a significant step forward. I think this advance is even more visible with 1.14 - at least with the test version I'm using now.

Oh, and another thing. Seems there is no longer need to add distance correction. For 9 km of GPS distance there is 9,5 km of EUC distance. So no longer need to apply -18% distance correction; -6 % is all that is needed. But... speed is still 18% off.

[Meserias]

on mine I have 1.13 and when updated I immediately sense more acceleration available at slow speed...compared with previews one.
16X how many miles you do compared with 18XL ? .... 18XL can go low as 66V witch equals more range, witch means less charges witch in the end allow user to benefit more from his wheel.

also, don't forget that initiator is commuting 13KM each day, this wheel should be reliable and trusty witch 16X it's not (at least not yet)

Edited January 3, 2020 by Meserias

[Seba]

11 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said:

Seriously @Seba ? Do you know when it will be public ?

I don't know. But heard from various KS representatives that final 1.14 version will be released soon. I think we can expect it this month. I've made about 100 km with this firmware, including 40 km of a single ride especially for testing it in various conditions. One thing to note is that I'm not a speed rider, so I don't go beyond 40 km/h and haven't tested near-top capabilities.

[TomOnWheels]

10 minutes ago, Seba said:

I don't know. But heard from various KS representatives that final 1.14 version will be released soon. I think we can expect it this month. I've made about 100 km with this firmware, including 40 km of a single ride especially for testing it in various conditions. One thing to note is that I'm not a speed rider, so I don't go beyond 40 km/h and haven't tested near-top capabilities.

Really really cool ! I'm not a speed rider ether, I usually do max 30 km/h... and I love my life so I will not push it to near-top capabilities... Anyway in my opinion we buy a powerful wheel just to have enough security margin... Les noise is definitely a good point...

 

[travsformation]

9 hours ago, TDK said:

3-inch tire is only 20% wider than a 2.5-inch tire. The difference is not huge. Just lower the pressure on a 2.5-inch tire by 20% to have a similar feel to a 3-inch tire.
Personally, I think that KS 18XL drives much better than KS 16X. I was disappointed with the KS 16X driving experience (CST tire, firmware 1.07) after 2-3 hours of riding this wheel. I did not have a joy of riding, because the wheel rode a bit as it wanted. Riding it is more difficult.

What pressure are you riding it at? I've read quite a few comments of people who were riding it at higher pressure (2.9 bar / 42 PSI) and had trouble controlling the wheel. After lowering the pressure, it became much easier to ride. I believe @buell47 rides at 30 PSI for street use & 26 for off-road, and @Mike Sacristan at 25 PSI

[travsformation]

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

To me, sub 3-inch wheels are dead.

That's like saying the original Batmobile is dead...

Granted, the Tumbler has beefier tires...

...but dead is a harsh statement coming from Backeman himself...

 

[TomOnWheels]

17 minutes ago, travsformation said:

What pressure are you riding it at? I've read quite a few comments of people who were riding it at higher pressure (2.9 bar / 42 PSI) and had trouble controlling the wheel. After lowering the pressure, it became much easier to ride. I believe @buell47 rides at 30 PSI for street use & 26 for off-road, and @Mike Sacristan at 25 PSI

My 4 bar and no trouble to control it.

[RoadRunner]

3 hours ago, Seba said:

Just wait for 1.14 firmware

What about speed throttling on 1.14, still at 25% or they changed it to 50% again?

[Seba]

1 minute ago, RoadRunner said:

What about speed throttling on 1.14, still at 25% or they changed it to 50% again?

Seems unchanged, but this is to confirm yet. I was getting "Please decelerate" & tiltback at 30km/h and about 67-68V, but this was at the end of my test ride.

[Unventor]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

What I prefer about the 16X over the 18XL is the beefy tire. Firmware can't fix that 

Well they have improved things a lot before. If @Seba is testing next online fw I think he is in a better position to give input. This is the benafit of possible fw updates. I hope they do more tweeking of the KS16X as I think they still can do more on this wheel too. 

[Seba]

3 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Well they have improved things a lot before. If @Seba is testing next online fw I think he is in a better position to give input. This is the benafit of possible fw updates. I hope they do more tweeking of the KS16X as I think they still can do more on this wheel too. 

I have a feeling that 1.14 firmware is using some algorithms that proven to work well with KS-16X. That could explain lack of PWM noise and the feeling that it rides similar to KS-16X in many aspects. Of course it won't be on par with KS-16X, but both wheels are much closer now in terms of overall handling.

[null]

I only did a bit of distance on the 16X but found it very comfortable and reactive. The 18XL is more stable for long distance though but as a urban commuter the 16X is probably superior. Or the 16S if you need to carry it. /2c

Edited January 3, 2020 by null

[mrelwood]

 

On 1/2/2020 at 12:18 PM, travsformation said:

(I'd love to hear @The Fat Unicyclist, @mrelwood and @Mike Sacristan's answer to the latter question too)

Thank you for the honour, but after @Mike Sacristan’s yet another magnificent post I have nothing to add!

 

12 hours ago, TDK said:

3-inch tire is only 20% wider than a 2.5-inch tire. The difference is not huge. Just lower the pressure on a 2.5-inch tire by 20% to have a similar feel to a 3-inch tire.

A few things that doesn’t support your math:

1) The contact patch of a tire is normally a bit narrower than the tire width. But since a wider tire flattens out further than a narrow one (lower tire pressure being used), the difference in contact patch width alone is notably more than 20%.

2) The contact patch area grows even a lot more than the width, making the difference a lot larger.

3) The tire doesn’t flatten against the road linearly with pressure, so even if the 20% were correct, decreasing the pressure 20% would not give the same contact patch width, and most certainly not the same area.

4) The feel of the tire is so many more things than just the contact patch or shock absorption. The most important factor for me in tire width is how it turns. I believe the contact patch center point moving further to the side to be the reason for this. A loose narrow tire can’t mimic this at all, and will instead turn worse than with regular pressure.

5) In my experience a loose narrow tire always feels just like a loose narrow tire, and not at all like a wider tire with any pressure. Unfortunately your experience with the 16X is a textbook example of how wheel behaviour is ruined when inflated too far for the rider. From what I’ve read, there’s a lot to the wheel that you didn’t get to experience.

 

6 hours ago, Seba said:

Just wait for 1.14 firmware...  IMO it largely closes the gap (or at least makes this gap much smaller) between KS-16X 2200 W and KS-18XL 2000 W. I'm currently testing this firmware on my wheel and have to say that I'm amazed how much can be made better by just firmware update. For example, with 1.14 the fixed pitch PWM noise is competely gone now.

Just to be clear, the PWM noise is gone on the old 2000W motor 18XL with the fw 1.14?!

The 2200W 18XL starts to speed throttle at 50% battery, but fw 1.14 makes the old 2000W motor both silent and again more peppy while still having the speed throttle starting at 25% battery?! 

If I had a 2200W 18XL I’d be somewhat nervous about this...

[travsformation]

11 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The 2200W 18XL starts to speed throttle at 50% battery, but fw 1.14 makes the old 2000W motor both silent and again more peppy while still having the speed throttle starting at 25% battery?! 

@Seba It would be interesting to have more info on when speed throttling starts with FW 1.14. I'd love to have better acceleration and braking (who wouldn't?) but not at the expense of getting speed throttling sooner....

[null]

2 minutes ago, travsformation said:

@Seba It would be interesting to have more info on when speed throttling starts with FW 1.14. I'd love to have better acceleration and braking (who wouldn't?) but not at the expense of getting speed throttling sooner....

There is also the issue of battery drain (ie Gotway..) but if we have the choice between true hard and soft modes it would be to users choice..

[Seba]

4 minutes ago, travsformation said:

@Seba It would be interesting to have more info on when speed throttling starts with FW 1.14. I'd love to have better acceleration and braking (who wouldn't?) but not at the expense of getting speed throttling sooner....

I plan to make another test ride and create a throttling speed/battery chart this weekend.

[Seba]

19 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Just to be clear, the PWM noise is gone on the old 2000W motor 18XL with the fw 1.14?!

That's correct. PWM noise (the one that is audible just after you turn on your wheel, have constant pitch that is independent of speed and which volume goes up with load) is gone with old, legacy 2000 W motor.

[mike_bike_kite]

24 minutes ago, Seba said:

That's correct. PWM noise (the one that is audible just after you turn on your wheel, have constant pitch that is independent of speed and which volume goes up with load) is gone with old, legacy 2000 W motor.

Is there any chance they'll do the same for the KS16S and make that silent as well?

[Tazarinho]

I wondered if this was the 2200W version, but apparently it's the 2000W. Still impressive.