Nikola and Nikola Plus compared to 16X

[Unventor]

2 minutes ago, Dzlchef said:

I didn't log anything but I can repeat tonight and track through EUC World and post.   

I think it would be interesting to see the forces at work. 

For the record, I don't have the guts nor skill to do that type of test ride. 

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

Oh. Ok. To each his own.  I like them both.  I will have to wait and see if I ever get annoyed by having a low battery. It only annoyed me the first time because I didn’t know it was low.  So in the meantime I guess I’ll just own both brands. Lol

 Does the Z 10 throttle back also or only king song? 

Only Gotway does not throttle as the battery goes down.

Gotway is all about allowing the owner of their wheel to use it as they wish. All the other manufacturers believe in one form or another of being nannies.

If you're not a guy that pushes your wheel than you won't care. That's OK. But you should understand why some riders are bothered by this.

[who_the]

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Only Gotway does not throttle as the battery goes down.

Not entirely true. 5-beep threshold definitely drops. See Jason's thread with the battery graphs for reference, sorry don’t have a few seconds to track it down right now.

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, who_the said:

Not entirely true. 5-beep threshold definitely drops. See Jason's thread with the battery graphs for reference, sorry don’t have a few seconds to track it down right now.

When I think throttling, I think tilt-back. The first time Gotway tilts-back is at about 2% battery 

KingSong will literally start tilting back at 25-percent.

I think it's been too long since you've experienced the joys of KingSong 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Marty Backe

[who_the]

4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

When I think throttling, I think tilt-back.

Throttling ≠ tiltback.

You’re right on one thing though, I'm 100% not a King Song guy.

[Marty Backe]

13 minutes ago, who_the said:

Throttling ≠ tiltback.

You’re right on one thing though, I'm 100% not a King Song guy.

So when the wheel starts tilt-back at 25-percent battery, what do you refer to this as if not Throttling???

Beeping (Gotway) is a suggestion. Throttling (KingSong) is a mandate.

[Patton250]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Only Gotway does not throttle as the battery goes down.

Gotway is all about allowing the owner of their wheel to use it as they wish. All the other manufacturers believe in one form or another of being nannies.

If you're not a guy that pushes your wheel than you won't care. That's OK. But you should understand why some riders are bothered by this.

I can totally understand that

[Patton250]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

When I think throttling, I think tilt-back. The first time Gotway tilts-back is at about 2% battery 

KingSong will literally start tilting back at 25-percent.

I think it's been too long since you've experienced the joys of KingSong 

 By the way why does KS do these things? In my opinion and it’s just my opinion it’s very annoying and for the most part stupid.  I can understand safety but it’s not like when you buy a brand new car they restrict the speed and make it difficult to unlock its full potential.  I was just wondering why KS does it. Probably nobody really knows right? 

[Marty Backe]

12 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

 By the way why does KS do these things? In my opinion and it’s just my opinion it’s very annoying and for the most part stupid.  I can understand safety but it’s not like when you buy a brand new car they restrict the speed and make it difficult to unlock its full potential.  I was just wondering why KS does it. Probably nobody really knows right? 

It goes back to the very roots of KingSong's creation. The owner believes in safety above performance. It's only been very recent that KingSong has started competing with Gotway in terms of performance.

And I still don't know the true creation story of KingSong. I believe the story goes that whomever started KingSong originally worked at Gotway, quit, and took some of the intellectual property (firmware) with them. This is why Gotway doesn't allow firmware updates - they are paranoid of software theft.

You may wonder how is it that the Gotway and KingSong have some features which are identical. The most striking example which shows the common DNA between KingSong and Gotway is the calibration procedure. It's a very arcane and not intuitive process, yet it's identical between the two companies. Coincidental? I think not.

So there's no love loss between Gotway and KingSong.

[Dzlchef]

4 hours ago, Unventor said:

I think it would be interesting to see the forces at work. 

For the record, I don't have the guts nor skill to do that type of test ride. 

Okay, had a few decent runs but many missteps but you can definitely see the spikes.  

https://euc.world/tour/577313847901081

 

[Mrd777]

Yes, folks I have the base 100volt model 1230wh.. I haven’t done a range test yet but plan to.  I’m quite happy with how fast this wheel goes even at lower voltages.. the wheel wasn’t even giving me a beep until 5% battery (darkness bot). In other words there has been no voltage sag that I can feel. Unlike my e boards where sag is always an issue.

   Hey @Marty Backe, and @houseofjob please weigh your wheel I’m curious what the weight difference is between the base 100volt and the plus. One thing I am noticing is it does take a bit of effort stopping these heavy wheels quickly. 

mark

[houseofjob]

3 minutes ago, Mrd777 said:

Yes, folks I have the base 100volt model 1230wh.. I haven’t done a range test yet but plan to.  I’m quite happy with how fast this wheel goes even at lower voltages.. the wheel wasn’t even giving me a beep until 5% battery (darkness bot). In other words there has been no voltage sag that I can feel. Unlike my e boards where sag is always an issue.

   Hey @Marty Backe, and @houseofjob please weigh your wheel I’m curious what the weight difference is between the base 100volt and the plus. One thing I am noticing is it does take a bit of effort stopping these heavy wheels quickly. 

mark

My Nik+ is 56.6 lbs, damn heavy.

But I notice no issues with stopping, but that could just be how I ride I think, esp always on soft mode for most Gotways (Nik+ soft mode is super buttery and responsive!)

[houseofjob]

5 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

You could just charge it with your 84v charger to charge it to 84v right? Not sure what % that corresponds to in a 100v wheel.

Not practicality-wise.

First the connectors are different, Gotway 84V is GX16-4 pin & Gotway 100V is GX16-5 pin.

Then, AFAIk, 0% for Gotway is 3.3V per cell, so for 100V / 24S, that's 79.2V, so you barely gain a charge level to really ride (get up to 22%?).

[Mrd777]

43 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

But I notice no issues with stopping, but that could just be how I ride I think, esp always on soft mode for most Gotways (Nik+ soft mode is super buttery and responsive!)

Certainly not an issue stopping, however if you took a mten3, mcm5, and Nikola plus and did a stop test from 20 mph,  I’m sure the Nikola would be way last.. yes, smaller wheel more torque, however weight certainly has a momentum play in it.

yes Soft Mode is the way to go, a nice pendulum effect.

[houseofjob]

Just now, Mrd777 said:

Certainly not an issue stopping, however if you took a mten3, mcm5, and Nikola plus and did a stop test from 20 mph,  I’m sure the Nikola would be way last.. yes, smaller wheel more torque, however weight certainly has a momentum play in it.

yes Soft Mode is the way to go, a nice pendulum effect.

Hmmmm...

Yes, not fair comparisons, as those other 2 wheels are considerably lighter, with higher power vs weight.

I need to try an MTen3 on soft mode some time, as when I owned one, I wasn't comfortable with Gotway soft mode.

But I don't feel the Nikola is any slow a braking wheel for wheels at similar wheel weights I think.

[who_the]

48 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Yes, not fair comparisons, as those other 2 wheels are considerably lighter, with higher power vs weight.

Would love instrumented testing of some sort at some point. Would make for great video too.

[Tadas]

4 hours ago, Dzlchef said:

Okay, had a few decent runs but many missteps but you can definitely see the spikes.  

https://euc.world/tour/577313847901081

Peak power close to 10 kW!!

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

On 7/30/2019 at 12:30 AM, Unventor said:

Nice picture. And yes I recall this promotion video from Inmotion too. 

But he didn't emergency break right away from this hard lean. 

On Kujis video it isn't until the brake starts that you start to see the issue. 

Now another thing is we don't know how many tries it took to do the promotion video, and how times it might have failed to keep up. 

So @Marty Backe how often do you ride any of your wheels like that, honestly....

Kuji also stated going uphill didn't provoke the issue to show. It is only on very hard acceleration followed by imitate hard breaking. 

It would be interesting to see how a Nikola holds up in same circumstances. You said it yourself that it had high amp spikes. 

Now another wheel that had a lot of hate/love about it the Z10. I don’t think that could do the Kuji acc/break test either. Nor do I think many would be able to perform such a move on it as breaking isn't really the Z10 to feature. 

But I think @mrelwood are 200% correct, mob goes into mass hysteria.

But like I said before if you recall @Marty Backe I am not on of the cool kids with a Nikola, but choose to get a KS16X instead. I cruise on my wheels I don't extreme tide them nor do I do tricks on them either. So on this matter I bring my coolness about this. I am very sure the KS16X will be just as good if not better than the Nikola. Give it a few months and this will be a huge storm in a glas of water that didn't matter anymore. 

Honestly.   I ride my nikola hard as hell.  I don’t have but about a 15 mile daily commute so I am a able to push it to its limits.. and beyond. I had my first overpowered cutout yesterday.  It wouldn’t have happened if I’d paid attention to the battery. I let it drop below 50% and it cutout at 34.9 mph.  !!ouch!!  Lol.   That pavement doesn’t give.  It only takes skin.     But my nikola is tough as hell.  It only sufferedminor scratches and a broken handle even when it rolled and skidded over 20meters.    But that’s not the point.  I ride my nikola and I lean into it as hard as I can and I brake just as hard at every stop sign and relight.  I love it.  It’s exhilarating.  And my 84v nikola with the 1st gen board handles it with ease.. as long as its above 50%battery. Lol.  

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

6 hours ago, Patton250 said:

 By the way why does KS do these things? In my opinion and it’s just my opinion it’s very annoying and for the most part stupid.  I can understand safety but it’s not like when you buy a brand new car they restrict the speed and make it difficult to unlock its full potential.  I was just wondering why KS does it. Probably nobody really knows right? 

Edited July 31, 2019 by buell47

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

31 minutes ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

Honestly.   I ride my nikola hard as hell.  I don’t have but about a 15 mile daily commute so I am a able to push it to its limits.. and beyond. I had my first overpowered cutout yesterday.  It wouldn’t have happened if I’d paid attention to the battery. I let it drop below 50% and it cutout at 34.9 mph.  !!ouch!!  Lol.   That pavement doesn’t give.  It only takes skin.     But my nikola is tough as hell.  It only sufferedminor scratches and a broken handle even when it rolled and skidded over 20meters.    But that’s not the point.  I ride my nikola and I lean into it as hard as I can and I brake just as hard at every stop sign and relight.  I love it.  It’s exhilarating.  And my 84v nikola with the 1st gen board handles it with ease.. as long as its above 50%battery. Lol.  

Nice to hear, now we can talk again about the KS speed limit and throttling at 25% or 50% battery

ähmm....better there:

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by buell47

[US69]

6 hours ago, Patton250 said:

By the way why does KS do these things? In my opinion and it’s just my opinion it’s very annoying and for the most part stupid.  I can understand safety but it’s not like when you buy a brand new car they restrict the speed and make it difficult to unlock its full potential.  I was just wondering why KS does it. Probably nobody really knows right? 

Marty allready answered ...but his answer is just half the truth...

It is not only that the KS owner believes in safety, it is also the technical restrictions of our batteries that make KS throttle the Wheel on low battery.

So it is not just "stupid"...most of the Standard non techie users don't know About voltagedrops and Battery undervoltage protections which can easily jump in and make you faceplant on low battery. 

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

It's only been very recent that KingSong has started competing with Gotway in terms of performance.

When Performance means only max Speed ….KS will never compete with GW in form of bringing out 70-80kmh wheels.

It is common About the owners/Managers  at KS, that 50kmh for a self balancer is allready enough.

When Performance also means some other points like torque and agileness...i have to disagree, most of my KS wheels have beaten GW in this category.

 

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

And I still don't know the true creation story of KingSong. I believe the story goes that whomever started KingSong originally worked at Gotway, quit, and took some of the intellectual property (firmware) with them. This is why Gotway doesn't allow firmware updates - they are paranoid of software theft. 

You may wonder how is it that the Gotway and KingSong have some features which are identical. The most striking example which shows the common DNA between KingSong and Gotway is the calibration procedure. It's a very arcane and not intuitive process, yet it's identical between the two companies. Coincidental? I think not.

So there's no love loss between Gotway and KingSong.

As far as i know thats a completly Internet fairie tale. 

And beside the calibration process there is absolutly nothing that speaks for it.....KS very first Wheel, the 14C has had absolutly Nothing in common with the at time competitor GW MCM2...it had a total different board...it had adjustable Speed Alarms....Bluetooth Music AND Bluetooth app...light...backlight….and some other Features that GW didnt even Dream About at the time. 

So even  when the KS boss was once working at GW...then he definitly was the creative one :-)

Also when Talking About "big battery" wheels...that's btw nothing that GW has invented. Actually here, too KS, was the first Company with a 1360/1680wh 18A ...while GW still doing a Msuper V2 680wh. You might give GW the Benefit of the 84V wheels...but naaah, that was actually InMotion  

But to be totally clear:

Actually you can love both Companies and their wheels…..my personal Wheel split GW and KS is now at having had 6 of each, and each of the wheels had it's plus and minus and a reason to have it or not. Actually no reason to blame or bash on competitors. Without the EUC world would be boring!

[UniVehje]

10 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Yes, that is the infamous KingSong throttling that Gotway does not do. It's all about being ultra conservative for KingSong, but that can be annoying for more performance minded folks.

This is why there is a large contingent of folks who will never buy KingSong.

So is it now confirmed that Nikola will let you ride until 3.0v on single cells? 

Because if it still is 0% at 3.3v then your statement is just not fair. Kingsong starts throttling speed at 3.3v (25%) which is totally understandable. At least other Gotways would throttle the speed to 0 at that point. I don't understand why it would be better to not ride at all than have some throttling and go farther. At least in MSX vs. 18XL both will ride unthrottled just as long and then Kingsong will have some additional range with throttling. If the Nikola will now let you ride down to 3.0v without throttling, then your statement is fair but I would throttle it myself and not ride it 50+ km/h under 3.3v. 

[UniVehje]

1 hour ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

Honestly.   I ride my nikola hard as hell.  I don’t have but about a 15 mile daily commute so I am a able to push it to its limits.. and beyond. I had my first overpowered cutout yesterday.  It wouldn’t have happened if I’d paid attention to the battery. I let it drop below 50% and it cutout at 34.9 mph.  !!ouch!!  Lol.   That pavement doesn’t give.  It only takes skin.     But my nikola is tough as hell.  It only sufferedminor scratches and a broken handle even when it rolled and skidded over 20meters.    But that’s not the point.  I ride my nikola and I lean into it as hard as I can and I brake just as hard at every stop sign and relight.  I love it.  It’s exhilarating.  And my 84v nikola with the 1st gen board handles it with ease.. as long as its above 50%battery. Lol.  

So your Nikola cut out on you at 35 mph and you are then recommending it because it let you do that? A wheel should never do that to you. I get that some people don't want restrictions but there is a price to pay. 

[Meserias]

Lucas Alexander: 35 mph means 56,3 Kmh = 15.6 m per second !!!!!
how do you pass 50Kmh on 50% battery ??

do you realize true speed or you just imagine that you have this speed ?!
there is no ...LOL here really !

Edited July 31, 2019 by Meserias

[Mike Sacristan]

4 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

So is it now confirmed that Nikola will let you ride until 3.0v on single cells? 

Because if it still is 0% at 3.3v then your statement is just not fair. Kingsong starts throttling speed at 3.3v (25%) which is totally understandable. At least other Gotways would throttle the speed to 0 at that point. I don't understand why it would be better to not ride at all than have some throttling and go farther. At least in MSX vs. 18XL both will ride unthrottled just as long and then Kingsong will have some additional range with throttling. If the Nikola will now let you ride down to 3.0v without throttling, then your statement is fair but I would throttle it myself and not ride it 50+ km/h under 3.3v. 

Totally agree with you.

Not confirmed for the Nikola. Only a few people here who have speculated. Marty did some range testing way back. Wheellog was showing lower battery than expected and everyone started speculating that the Nikola had a higher power consumption especially when observing current. A range test after that showed that it was quite along the lines of the MSX. Observation regarding power consumption + similar range to MSX = speculation regarding 3.0v.

And I am still unsure about the 16x voltage use as well (if someone can confirm please do so).

It's funny how people make incorrect assumptions and observations and then create theories to support them.  This is becoming worse than the fitness/diet world.

As you say Kingsong is doing quite a job letting riders do 50kmh down to 3.3v. It's time to dispel the myth that Gotway doesn't throttle you. I got 5 beeps at 51kmh at 50% battery. Let's not turn that into a matter of semantics. If 5 beeps are the safety indicator or suggestion/recommendation then that is all I have to go by when riding. Otherwise give me a proper working tiltback instead of the beeps or an option in between. Not a slowly creeping pedal tiltback that will make me wonder if it is high speed + wind resistance + bad posture that is reducing my ankle dorsiflexion. TIltback at a highest setting of 48kmh so I can still do 50+ on the balls of my feet.  And is pedal tiltback on Gotway static or is it progressive with the 5 beeps? Will I get 5 beeps at 45kmh and tiltback creeping at 48kmh? If i'm riding above 40kmh I may as well be riding at 90kmh. I have to ride with so much intent that I basically through all my self preservation out the window. But at least I have the "excuse me dear sir but beep beep beep beep beep could you please slow down a bit"? 

Kingsong tiltback implementation on the 18XL is fine. I have gotten tilted back plenty of times at 40kmh and it was no sweat. The wheels I tried where still limited so I have not tried 50kmh. Maybe there is more drama there. But the gentle deceleration was fine.

Gotway sure is exciting to ride! Nikola is a smooth ride and so is MSX. Riding with Nils he had greater skill navigating offroad with his Nikola than what I had with my MSX and he managed a steep decline that I had to eject from.

I would never trade my MSX for an 18XL though. The MSX is a pure solid beast. Stiff, angry and unyielding. A true juggernaut.

Next person who rides their Nikola or KS16x to low battery (15%) please report voltage!

50kmh at 3.3v vs 0kmh at 3.3v. Who is the safe one?