New GotWay Nikola 17''

[Marty Backe]

12 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Answer (at least for the US): Shane Chen / Inventist Legal Team.

 

Hasn't Shane proven that he's not interested in making performance wheels?

[meepmeepmayer]

12 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Hey, I'm only reporting the buying habits of others I've seen. You're only preaching to the choir 

Then I'm happy But in the end, it's sad what you report. 1600Wh for $1500 would be just friendlier.

12 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Only way to stop it is to ban Gotway.

Good luck with that!

Not that I think it should be done... but might be easier than one thinks. The very fact that they force EU-internal price-differences... instant ace in the hole here. And probably some kind of electrical/safety certification shortcoming should be easy to find. Boom, "dangerous", banned.

5 minutes ago, Electroman said:

Excellent point, how amazing if some upstarted company in US/EU could make that happen, one on each continent minimum, please?

Here in EU we have the east where there are are lots of young, smart people who could make it cheaper than here in west EU I suspect, would be a joy to see and proper competition would only drive it all forward, price, performance, quality.

I can dream, can I not?

I do dream that, too. Someone give me the money and I will do it.

Proper motors, proper electronics, actual ergonomics, pedal suspension, lights, design and construction quality... so many ultra-low hanging fruits. Problem is... who would want to invest in EUCs? That would be a rather long-term thing, I think, no quick get-rich growth. Maybe a scooter+EUC company?

Why didn't I mine some stupid Bitcoins 10 years ago?

16 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The market will establish the price. If it is indeed priced at $2500 and it sells well, than the market has spoken and we (including me) are indeed a minority.

If the Chinese prices continue their cost trajectory, this bodes well American/European manufacturer's to come into existence.

If it is indeed priced at $2500 and it sells well, then the Marty has spoken (and won't buy one)

Good point with the non-China manufacturers. Right now we got Uniwheel (lol) who apparently never have ridden a EUC or seen another manufacturer's wheel, or they would never have built that low-speed, low-power thing instead of the kind of wheel that sells.

[meepmeepmayer]

39 minutes ago, Hsiang said:

The semi tranparent case, the glowing light and the roundish shape, aside from making every scratch and dent shows more easily, also make this thing look more like a toy for children. I didn't love the design for their earlier wheels but at least they look utilitarian and functional lookig. The imac look is was meant to refresh a company and a product that people considered outdated at the time. And as soon as it caught on apple transition to the more mature solid metal look still current in their line.

Everything I heard about Gotway says that they make high performance machine that pushes for the limit. making them look like toys sends the exact opposite message to potential customers.

You have good analogy there. I think not every wheel must look super-serious and the Nikola is neat (if very impractical). But this may very well be GW's iMac phase and over soon.

As long as GW wheels perform, people won't care too much how they look. That's how it was til now

[meepmeepmayer]

23 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Lol, the real question will be if the price is just on the edge, like I'm thinking $2300 USD.

He said (in the video) 100 or so more than an MSX. Which currently is 2100 on ewheels.

[Electroman]

Yeah stupid, me too just waited and waited and never cared for them coins, ahh cannot think like that will just drive me up the walls here in my poor misery lol.

Yes, could'a, should'a and all that, think your right no quick easy pay out here, on the other hand I rather have a personality doing this that burn for a EU made, decent, powerful wheel yet always have cost in mind not to go fully overboard and make a few one of a kind that no one will ever buy cause way out of touch with reality.

There is that Cromotor company is Croatia still right? Making powerful hub motors for bicycles, wish they could be persuaded into giving it ago already having base but perhaps not in a position to gamble with that base either? Not a mega factory in China spitting thousands of mass produced hub motors.

[houseofjob]

27 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

He said (in the video) 100 or so more than an MSX. Which currently is 2100 on ewheels.

Prices from unveil to final production have changed too much that I don't pay the initial prices much mind, just a reference.

 

37 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Not that I think it should be done... but might be easier than one thinks. The very fact that they force EU-internal price-differences... instant ace in the hole here. And probably some kind of electrical/safety certification shortcoming should be easy to find. Boom, "dangerous", banned.

Errr, that would probably ban all EUC's then  no good

I meant more like customers strike/ban against Gotway individually as a brand. But too many Gotway stans (justifiably) for this to happen I think.

 

39 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Hasn't Shane proven that he's not interested in making performance wheels?

Shane was never interested in making mass production wheels period! based on his ridiculous pricing for the SoloWheels series and upsurge Glide series pricing.

He just needs to setup shop like a legitimate EUC dealer, so he can cry wolf and sue any potential competition into submission, ie. the Microsoft patent troll model 

[Nic]

Gotway just isn't good at making 'pretty' wheels ... they seem to have borrowed a few design cues from InMotion for the Nikola, but don't execute so well. I'd make the following changes...

1. Replace the twin white bands that go around the circumference with the same black transparent plastic as used on the sides. Then the ring lights will be visible from any position. Add some shielding at top to prevent dazzling the rider.

2. The carry handle is too wide, so make the trolley handle smoother and shape the top of the EUC body to allow the trolley handle to be accessed to act as a carry  handle when retracted.

3. Build a charger into the EUC body with a storage compartment for the power lead with worldwide adapters. This means that you can always recharge when an opportunity presents itself as you don't need to remember to carry a charger around.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Nic

[Electroman]

Would be nice I like it, but still want a option for fast charger so part for that must be there even if just carrying a lead with us.

Ohh also in regards to the trolley handle most seams to dislike, it is indeed a bit too low grade I agree, but with that said I have come to very much like the position of the handle on Msupers. Sure is a mess to try to drag backwards and most people who try it fail but for for me is now use to it I actually like it, always lad the wheel just in front of me and not to the side where I would dislike to lead the wheel walking it, just thinking of crowds make me get the shills leading it on my right side + now I can use it in front of me like a battering ram when peopel are disrespectful and just try to squeeze too much lol.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Electroman

[FreeRide]

Wow an expensive Barbie wheel.  I was sure their next wheel was going to be a 16" with a 3" tire.  Borrowing all the ideas from other manufacturers shows quiet a lack of imagination.  I the market ever does make it mainstream, that is going to be a problem.  The MSX, as un refined looking as it is, still seems preferable to this bubble-tea looking toy. Luckily the lights and hopefully the color tone can be adjusted to the extreme.  Beauty is in the eye, I guess. It seems Gateway works at extremes of fashion as well as power.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I wonder how well it rides.    If this wheel can do 60-70 kph without breaking a sweat and have a large amount of reserve power for safety I bet people will be buying it even at the higher price point.  If Gotway is demanding a higher price, they have to up their game and make it stand out above all others.  Looking at the side profile I think it looks like there won't be any sharp edges to dig into calves.  A natural inward curve in the upper half of the wheel gives legs a nice clearance for leg muscles.  Even though the shell looks a bit bulky, I wonder with the smaller wheel if it would be as nimble around corners and turns.  I have a feeling that it should be something like the InMotion V8 or V10 series in terms of handling?

People plunk down thousands for those Dualtron scooters... They can go like 80-90 kph though.  For $2500, I hope this Nikola ends up being the king of EUCs in terms of features!  Then it might be worth it.  I definitely see Marty getting one.    He said he wasn't getting a Tesla, and guess what happened?  

That Kafuter RTV 704 around the visible, loose handle switch wiring is a little disconcerting though...    So much for waterproofing efforts if any?

Edited December 1, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[meepmeepmayer]

If it has the 2000W motor like the MSX, it's going to be 17/19th that fast. Not faster than the MSX.

Same with ACM vs msuper V3 (same motor).

[Jerome]

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I will most likely be buying this wheel. But even I wouldn't pay over $2000 for it.

The market will establish the price. If it is indeed priced at $2500 and it sells well, than the market has spoken and we (including me) are indeed a minority.

If the Chinese prices continue their cost trajectory, this bodes well American/European manufacturer's to come into existence.

EU and especially the USA are lands of lawyers and bureaucrats. Our "own" home grown "ONE Wheel" limits their product to 15 mph before push back, I suspect out of fear of law suits and destructive legislation. No way an US firm is going to make a wheel that goes 30 mph. That's moped speed. The top Gotways can dog 50cc Hondas, Yamahas, Vespas, etc. Any US firm that built a EUC that goes over 13-15 mph would be the victim of a class-action suit before you could say "face-plant". If EUCs stay microscopic in numbers like they are now, then people will be able to satisfy their need for speed for a while yet.

EUCs will never be the total rage because of the learning curve and price. They could proliferate, however, at a significant enough rate to draw the attention of the general public. No one will be able to justify how 30-40+ mph vehicles should be allowed on sidewalks and bike paths, require no license, registration, liability insurance, certifications etc. Check out what happen in Singapore, that initially had very progressive and tolerant attitude towards Pevs before the need for speed soured them big time. Some here are salivating for 40-50+ mph wheels.

I plan on riding the heck out of my wheel in the coming months - years?  I won't be waiting for the fat lady to sing. The singer in our case will be the Doors and "..this is the end, the end my friend.."

[maxkan]

Looking at that new wheel I started to have serious doubts about sanity of Gotway engineers. I'll probably pass on Msuper X, just to be on the safe side 

Edited December 1, 2018 by maxkan

[dieterGRAMS]

34 minutes ago, Jerome said:

EU and especially the USA are lands of lawyers and bureaucrats. Our "own" home grown "ONE Wheel" limits their product to 15 mph before push back, I suspect out of fear of law suits and destructive legislation. No way an US firm is going to make a wheel that goes 30 mph. That's moped speed. The top Gotways can dog 50cc Hondas, Yamahas, Vespas, etc. Any US firm that built a EUC that goes over 13-15 mph would be the victim of a class-action suit before you could say "face-plant". If EUCs stay microscopic in numbers like they are now, then people will be able to satisfy their need for speed for a while yet.

EUCs will never be the total rage because of the learning curve and price. They could proliferate, however, at a significant enough rate to draw the attention of the general public. No one will be able to justify how 30-40+ mph vehicles should be allowed on sidewalks and bike paths, require no license, registration, liability insurance, certifications etc. Check out what happen in Singapore, that initially had very progressive and tolerant attitude towards Pevs before the need for speed soured them big time. Some here are salivating for 40-50+ mph wheels.

I plan on riding the heck out of my wheel in the coming months - years?  I won't be waiting for the fat lady to sing. The singer in our case will be the Doors and "..this is the end, the end my friend.."

EXACTLY. But.... what if you released only a modular board? Someone could assemble their own wheel. Source or recycle their own parts and set their own parameters. Something robust that could handle 3k -4k watt motors but demo'd on sub 2k watt units for said reasons. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by dieterGRAMS

[houseofjob]

@Jerome Agreed!

But reading this, the only caveat is that EUCs (unlike any other e-rideables with more than one wheel) are the only PEV where you can go naturally from riding 30mph next to car traffic, to comfortably going walking pace amongst crowded pedestrian traffic (with the right skills). Getting legislators to understand this and appropriately legislate for this, without firsthand rider knowledge, will be impossible. 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by houseofjob

[Electroman]

1 hour ago, Jerome said:

The top Gotways can dog 50cc Hondas, Yamahas, Vespas, etc. Any US firm that built a EUC that goes over 13-15 mph would be the victim of a class-action suit before you could say "face-plant". If EUCs stay microscopic in numbers like they are now, then people will be able to satisfy their need for speed for a while yet.

Some here are salivating for 40-50+ mph wheels.

Yes indeed, I had a race with a moped just a months and some weeks ago, a tuned moped  and with 2 small teens on it so got me on the flat straights and downwards but not by much, did however loosing ground fast as soon as leaning a couple degrees up so give and take over several kilometers and a motorcycle coming up from behind slowed down to follow us all the way and even open the visor with a big smile on his face giving the thumbs up.

The crazy thing is that despite the lack of suspension I really do feel like the MSX is stable and feels very solid even touching upon the 60km/h mark and every now and then under perfect conditions even a couple over, even if just for a few seconds, so see no reason why it could not also reach the 70km/h for shorter bits and still feel like it's not yet a gamble and while I do love my speed I could not even begin to imagine something like that on say the old ACM, that would be flat out scary. That stiffest mode, peddle angle literally holding me in place at all time and that tire do so much for the sensation of stability and safety at higher speeds, but sure if I want to cruise at 80+ perhaps a rethink is needed and suspension would be wise?

Could just keep bumping the tire too at least to a point but somewhere that will just become inefficient instead and I think we are already at that point and found the sweet spots for a fast cruiser in the 18" class, more mass to rotate could be beneficial from certain points of view only but that's it and the punishment from other points will be so unbearable it's not worth it, imagine double Z10 mass or just x1.5, or should I say mess cause that would be too high of a price to pay when not trying to in a straight line imho.

53 minutes ago, dieterGRAMS said:

EXACTLY. But.... what if you released only a modular board? Someone could assemble their own wheel. Source or recycle their own parts and set their own parameters. Something robust that could handle 3k -4k watt motors but demo'd on sub 2k watt units for said reasons. 

The old solder trick of graphics card back when overclock was mainly done via hardware mods and CPU's multiplier, de shunt whatever..? Why not,  prepare a much more powerful wheel but kind of held back at level of today's top wheels, then "fix that bridge" and suddenly all pony's are unlocked, cocked and loaded, ready to go.

Will be interesting to see where GW will go from here on, this Nicola model I must admit is not what I expected next from this company, interesting move but not interesting enough on a personal level.

[DanCar]

I'd be more interested in buying it if it came with 30cm long pedals.

[US69]

Just my thoughts on the price:

That was to be exspected! What everybody forgets here are the costs of developing a complete new shell, making the machine tools to mold those shells, producing every little plastic part of the new wheel yourself, go in advantage for molding etc etc.

Thats the reason why allready the Tesla had the same price as a ACM and why also this Nikola is much more expensive than a MSX!

New MSX (and ACM2) where not a reall new design and  product at  all...ACM is existing since early 2016, Msuper v3 a little later.

The MSX is just the V3 shell with some LED and a new board thrown in....not much to develope and nearly no new machine tools needed.

(not meant as critic, this at least has kept the price down!)

 

Now this Nikola is in fact a really NEW wheel (like the Tesla was)...btw thats also the reason why for example KS wheels have been slightly more expensive than comparable GW wheels with same battery size, they are just new developed! (beside 16s>16b)

It is not far away in time, when our small wheel producers have not been able to stem the cost alone for such developments, for example the MCM5 was crowdfunded...as also the first KS16 was kind of.....

But yeah, i also dont like the high prices for some wheels :-(

 

For the argument of using the existing shell place better in our existing wheels:

Yes,there is some more space in some wheels, but all our battery packs are handcrafted/solderd and go a route of easy production, means the number of seriell cells more or less is responsible for the battery pack size and form. In DIY you/we might be able to squeeze one or two serial pack more into the shells, but whoever has seen this constructions and its BMS wires knows that this is nothing for serial production.

Thats why especially the 100V version of GW have that lot of space...the shells are just not designed for this 25s config ...and as costwise you cant slap a new designed BMS on every 25cells it just leaves that much space over :-(

 

For the „Nikola“:

Very special design...really seams Korea/asia loves this led designs, i would not have thought that GW goes this „glossy“ route!

One disadvanatage of the allaround LED is that in case of a flat probably you have to split the shell halfs, as with the LED under the pedals you cant drop out the wheel under the shell after loosing motorcables amd pedalscrews. But thats minor, who wants a flat anyway? ;-)

The tire is great, really comfy i guess. The trolley handle is my biggest concern. I never liked that design, and when GW uses the same material for their shells as always, i hope this holds up long enough, as there is extrem stress on the fixing point of the trolley....especially with big batterys!

Other than that: Really cool wheel :-)

[Thai-lad]

The top grip seems to be really wide, I wonder how easy it will be to pick up?  It's not going to be a lightweight wheel.

The translucent shell will scuff up and get dirty on the inside as someone else already mentioned.  I think it would have been better if they'd spent the money/effort on a thicker, stronger more durable shell.  We can only hope the clear plastic is less fragile than what's been a weak point for Gotway till now.

Sure, I understand the desire to make a wheel that's visually different from what's come before, but sometimes practical considerations should take equal priority.

[FreeRide]

I have a feeling that top grip may change before the production version. Seems totally impractical and poorly suited to its function.

Edited December 1, 2018 by FreeRide

[houseofjob]

1 hour ago, FreeRide said:

I have a feeling that top grip may change before the production version. Seems totally impractical and poorly suited to its function.

Highly doubt it.

This is the exact same handle / handle button setup as the MCM5, just that the handle goes completely through the case, unlike the MCM5 which closes off the left side.

its fine for carrying, not as pleasing as wrapping your whole hand around the handle, but there is a groove on the underside for better grip.

Edited December 1, 2018 by houseofjob

[FreeRide]

2 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Highly doubt it.

This is the exact same handle / handle button setup as the MCM5, just that the handle goes completely through the case, unlike the MCM5 which closes off the left side.

its fine for carrying, not as pleasing as wrapping your whole hand around the handle, but there is a groove on the underside for better grip.

In that case you are probably right, I thought it looked much wider than MCM5.  The silence on the MCM5 handle probably encouraged them.  

[Electroman]

Regarding the shell I honestly do not think it is that expensive these days and smaller series I know can run in Alu molds and even other lower cost solutions + looking at quality, like someone else told us earlier it's still not at any western quality standard, mold wise at least. Just open any Makita tool and look inside and compare with a Gotway shell, regarding higher quality molding like used for tools like that...

Reading here and here to just give a few examples but these are proper US companies and a certain quality can be demanded, the Rex plastics one is also written in 2013 for consideration. Relatively these are not complicated molds either and  been told Gotway add 300% of shells sold and would explain why so darn expensive even for existing models. 1 of these examples land at $0.09 per piece but we talk about .5 million of parts then.

Regarding designing the shell, the programs available today are so powerful it's a very low cost and speedy deal, virtual design changed so much in manufacturing industry's and even Joe Schmoe at home in front of Fusion360 can make wonders with just some basics understanding and  little bit of experience designing in it. Not just design been simplified a lot but even material fatigue etc can be run virtually which is a huge step forward in manufacturing.

Perhaps not correct of me to even say things like this openly, but I speculate so.. I honesty do not believe Gotway do a lot of real world stress testing of components, if even at all for a casings? Heard some say we are beta testers on our wheels so I excuse myself with that. To know for certain Gotway must provide us with some information on details, something inside me think this will never happen, at least prices will go down after been on the market just a lil while but it would be truly interesting to see some smart young up starters here in (east) EU get some capital and start producing in Poland, Ukraine, Romania or similar cheaper to produce in country and start competing for real. Competition not just among the Chinese manufacturers but pressure on all ends on these guys, force the tech forwards, options and improving each other in a cut throat environment, steel sharpen steel kind of deal.

[Rama Douglas]

On 11/29/2018 at 7:08 PM, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Hold the phone  .  Doesn't it kinda resemble one of those light up yo-yo's?  

 

Totally! I was thinking the same. Seems like sales would go up if they changed the name from Nikola to yo-yo. I like the wheel. Definitely a good business move for Gotway to garner more crossover customers from Inmotion and Kingsong enthusiasts. Plus, this design is not only flashy and .oddrn, but concise, and super durable. 

[meepmeepmayer]

Everything about this wheel except the price is pretty neat. Maybe not for everyone, but something new. Not every wheel must be generic, boring, serious. Maybe rename to Gotway Neon.

36 minutes ago, Electroman said:

Regarding the shell I honestly do not think it is that expensive these days and...

I think the production cost is an excuse as well. The reason the newly designed GW wheels (Tesla, MCM5, mten3, ...) are built like they are (and modelled after how IM and KS did much earlier) - relatively flat side panels, relatively flat inner side shells, central ring from multiple parts over the tire, multiple smaller parts in general - precisely because such plastic parts and their molds are much cheaper to produce than the deep half shells of the ACM or msuper (literally half the wheel) and their molds. You can't tell me that producing quite simple plastic parts in China can be such a constraint.

And anyways, design and production investment is supposed to amortize over the lifespan of sales, worked for the cheaper ACM and msuper V3 too.

It was literally stated in the video GW wants to make this wheel a bit more expensive than the MSX because it is "better". That's their thinking. I understand they are proud of their new design achievements and their growing in competency, and maybe they're low on money, but that was their excuse with the Tesla as well. They forget the part where you get a better product for the same price as time passes, prices can't just rise like all these wheels were released at the same point in time.