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New GotWay Nikola 17''

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Interesting! Like others have said, I agree with how it seems to combine the best features from every brand yet looks “china cool”. I wonder how one would go about pumping up the tire on this wheel? I can’t find an access port, but maybe I’m just not looking hard enough. 

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I kinda like it!  :w00t2:  The reviewer did say it's a prototype test model so maybe there might be some changes to the design?  Usually though I would think if they're providing a test wheel that the main design is pretty much finalized considering the cost to produce shells.  It's neat to see the little side bumpers (I think those are bumpers?) that help protect the shiny finish.  The shells are also semi-translucent so you can see the inside?  Is that what he said?

And whoa LOUD SPEAKERS?  Sweet!  Finally!  It's nice to have a mobile boom box on the go. Hopefully that disengage switch is reliable over time.  It looks like it won't re-engage unless the wheel is more or less upright?  I do wish the shell could have been mounted a little lower so it doesn't look so high.  Then again it's nice to be able to access the air valve and avoid clipping the shell dropping off curbs so it's a trade off I guess.  Wouldn't it be cool if it had a speed sensor that lowered the body down in height while going 40 kph and above like what some fancy cars do?  :w00t2:  That would be neat but likely impractical and trouble-prone.

It does look pretty massive though.  I don't like the GW font on the padding/rear brake light, but hey it has a brake light at least so I won't complain.  They need a cool redesign of their logo like what Tesla motor cars has.

e211e2af73c2c6086f0ab50434d6023b.jpg

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

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33 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

It's neat to see the little side bumpers (I think those are bumpers?) that help protect the shiny finish.

That will be covers for the screws and screw holes needed to hold the shell together.

31 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

The shells are also semi-translucent so you can see the inside?  Is that what he said?

Yes, look at the pictures in the first post. E.g. this one.

b0f38ca5-001d-47a9-867b-791a15073d1c.jpg

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So, Maybe they should have named it the Edsel? 

Strange, a little ahead of it’s time and priced out of range.  This is the prototype. Maybe changes will be made. 

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14 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

This is going to be tough sell: not only does it dwarf the MSX, which no one would mistake for being the most portable of Wheels, but the price is expected to be in the region of the $2500 territory, or 3000 Euros for much of Europe :cry2: 

I wish they could be more pragmatic, find a way to fit a 2.5" tire, under-handle switch & a 1200Wh pack (there's a lot of empty space on the handle side) on the Tesla, now that would be a winner!  

Thanks @EcoDrift/Alex for announcing on the forum first :) 

 

Indeed, good points and fully agree about the Tesla. Thanks for some figures Jason, real or not on a potential release day later on?

But the price, I had no idea, if that is true then Gotway what the heck is going on and how could that possibly be justified?

Ok I understand some could find a way to justify it and go on about manufacturing and why that would be reasonable, and who am I to argue really I am not in this business professionally? But I do consider myself somewhat technical at very least in my own profession where I absolutely do have some experience about development, manufacturing and assembly costs but more aimed at the steel industry but it's a wide field and anything from machining the smallest details, to interior and glass to large load carrying construction assembly according to ISO1090 and a bunch of other standards including all types of fusion, anchor systems etc, ISO 3834/6520/5817 + inspections of the work like say the visual ISO 17637, materials, and last education even part of business administration.

Enough about that but it will give an idea of development and manufacturing costs in that regard and I feel like I am moving more and more towards the business administration side of it anyways, perhaps I'm just foolish and do not understand, that clearly is a possibility here but trying to apply the knowledge I do have to this field in a amateurish kind of way and considering that mechanic/electric parts already developed and in use here I cannot possibly see why it would cost anywhere close to that figure?

I understand we are talking rumors and not facts, I am not questioning you Jason, I am questioning Gotway if this turn out to be true? What I can and do claim as a fact is that the steel, aluminum alloys (even the copper in the motor) in use here is not high grade or costly, not really and high availability in China at low cost. No expert in plastics that's true, but I can do research and plastic injection molding seams to be quite cheap and considering designs are done the cheap, effective way these day in a virtual environment, so what it is that would cost like this?

I will not hand out any 3k for a wheel unless something truly special, not any 2.5k, all things must stand in relation to each other somehow.

Yes I know can be like a nagging, old grumpy man at times, sorry about that and possibly even about things not even real what do I know. :)

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If that's the pricing in euros and we get hit with another 25% then this wheel might as well not exsist stateside. That would potentially make this wheel around the 4k mark. At that point I'd rather have an mcm5 and a msx with some $ left over. 

Let's hope changes are made to bring the cost down, a larger battery Tesla with a tall sidewall tire would be great!

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It's not, yup everyone must have their piece of the cake, "naturally". :lol:

Seriously though it's just silly, in the modern world it should be cheaper than ever before to manufacture, buy and sell goods, if I were conspiratorial I would almost start thinking...? :whistling:

Even with that I remember when I was told about some 300% up on the Gotway plastics, I mean if that is so and with all fees etc how much is genuine development/manufacture cost in relation to what end customer is paying? Feels like we could have a manufacturer, the middle hand and end customer with superb service on offer all happy and taken properly care of it all things where as I think they should bee, imo that is?

The tax burden most certainly is no joke here in Sweden either some nations would be shocked to hear what we pay up here from out honestly earned pay check, but you have all this free health care and everything many believe and I even heard Bernie Sanders babble about, may be at least partially true in theory but what quality of health care and what kind of pressure on the system atm, who is taken care of first etc? Think I who work and pay my extreme taxes, think again. I heard questions in the dentist chair (my dentist is some higher up every other dentist come ask something every 10 min) that would make the hair on our back stand up whether you have any or not, including teens demanding white shiny teeth with absolutely nothing wrong with them in general, and I may add receive it even though our law is very clear on that point!  Hospital patients in dying before any program is even properly established included family, want an organ forget it, yes some are very happy and got what they needed and I am glad for them and that they did not have to see the dirty, ugly side of things.

Sorry, I cannot talk about this just get me going, get all grumpy again and it Friday I want to be happy and relaxed cause not working this weekend.

Any good news about this Nicola, looks a bit far gone for just a rough prototype to me, considering earlier Gotways  it is looking a lot closer to a finished product than any early prototype stage.

Edited by Electroman

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2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

:eff04a58a6:

Jason, tell them that's too expensive!

Gotway did a severe price hike along with the Tesla. The 1036Wh Tesla started at what the 1600Wh ACM cost! msuper prices rose in accordance. Now they seem to do a price hike, again.

Gotway need to understand just because their wheel is better now, they can't just say it should cost more. That's not how the market works. The same technology is supposed to get cheaper in time, not keep its price (and make updated models more expensive). They forgot about that part. All the development costs and shiny translucent shells aren't going to change that.

So either there is a substantial market for people who don't care what a wheel costs and just buy it (the rumored multi-wheelers who have more wheels than Marty but never post here or show themselves in other ways), and Gotway go for those and keep everyone else stranded. Or they ruin their reputation with normal people.

16 (or 17) inches is a beginner allrounder size (serious people just go for the msuper because 18>16 and that means it must be better and bigger and faster for enthusiasts), and no beginner is going to buy a $3000 wheel. 1000€/$ is a huge barrier for new riders, 1500 is pushing it, and that's where top-end 16 inchers were til now. More is just crazy. And "You can have old models, over a year old, for that price" isn't going to cut it. When people see they can buy a "shitty" (as in not nearly competitive with the current high end) V8 for 800-1000 and the wheels they want cost 2500+, they won't buy any EUC and just get a scooter or something (or nothing).

They aren't alone with that, scooters for example are crazy overpriced ($4000 for some Dualtron, hello??? It's just a shitty, cheaply constructed China scooter!! You can buy an acceptable used car for that!:eff04a58a6:) but I don't think those PEV and specifically EUC price hikes are going to help anyone, customers or them. They can't rely on their existing customer base who might buy their shiny special 3rd or 5th wheel. Are there that many rich people now that it makes sense to abandon the "normals"?

I bought my ACM for 1600€ in Jan. 2017. If it had cost 2000+ then and the alternative would have been a 1200+€ V8 (then, not sure how much it cost) that doesn't really do what I wanted, I probably would not have bought any EUC. "You're either crazy rich or will have to start with a second-rate model" isn't exactly an attractive proposition. The existence of the Tesla or the up-hiked MSX prices do not excuse that price for this Nikola:eff04a58a6:

So please maybe massage GW a bit and tell them the price is a joke. I don't know how much of the price hike is greedy GW and how much is out of their control, but for the Western end user that's not going to matter.

Perhaps going down the RAM/DRAM route, always seams like some factory is under water, burning, had a quake or whatever it may be, last  few years or so even though it looked like it finally turned around in places here at least. Just obvious cartel behavior, not 100% but think I just glimpsed some article recently about the Chinese government going after exactly just that and finding dirt on them, but not 100% just think I saw some headliner recently if remembering correct? 

Pint still is that it does happen, we all know it and for DRAM it been so obvious even after rebuilt factory and wherever prices kept up for some time before too many questions started, investigations, whatever. We seen it in Oil several times, Tobacco etc I really do hope we never must see this in regards to out beloved wheels, whether sought or unsought, agreed upon price fixings or just a general price  adjustments happening natural and climbing which of course is likely to bring more onboard, ..or be smart and utilize the situations to steal marked shares?

Either way please don't let it go down that way, I like me a new wheel every year/other year or so but not at any cost, it is the principle to me.

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24 minutes ago, Electroman said:

Just obvious cartel behavior

Yea, maybe not exactly GW and KS having crazy conspiratiorial meetings (do they still hate each other?), but they see a price hike and silently hike theirs too instead of competing. Tesla and 16S e.g.

24 minutes ago, Electroman said:

Either way please don't let it go down that way, I like me a new wheel every year/other year or so but not at any cost, it is the principle to me.

That's a really good measure for an acceptable wheel price! If one can do that, it means a potential new rider can, too. Reasonably easy to get into EUCs then.

And with the shitty current state of wheels (all models of all manufacturers are still a joke from Western quality standards) and speed of development, a new wheel every 2 years is needed anyways.

Speaking of quality, how long is the translucent shell of the Nikola going to look good, with dust getting in and being visible from the outside, and scratches? Going to look like crap after 6 months. Not speaking of the cabling of the lift button. I bet there's not a single bit of waterproofing or just a dust seal on this wheel.

2500+ $/€ for this kind of quality (aka the lack of)???

Yes, it's still a "prototype", meaning GW let's the Russians test if it doesn't explode on sight and doing their alpha testing (beta testing is for end users - beta testing means testing the finished product)... lol... does anyone believe there will be significant improvements to the production model?

1500-2000 for that, fine. More is a joke.

48f97f1b-47e6-4714-a303-991199cf0264.jpg

Edited by meepmeepmayer

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28 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Adding a battery later is absurdly more costly than the extra price if you buy it right away.

And what was the reason people added the capacity only later? Did you ask them? My humble guess is: price:efee47c9c8: "I'm not sure I needed it and it was expensive as it is". Only later they realized they needed the range/capacity they found overpriced earlier.

The 650Wh and 800Wh options are also 3P (a wheel powerful like this should have more) and will be imbalanced because all the battery weight is on one side, one battery instead of two (and you might even see the missing battery because the shell is translucent).

And in the end, if you upgrade later, the price will be even higher than the overpriced normal big capacities. Nothing gained for nobody.

That is not an attractive option. "You can have a shitty variant for the normal price so it's ok" won't make many people happy.

It didn't use to be like that. That came with the Tesla which cost as much as the 1600Wh ACM before. I will always remember that disappointment lol.

All you need to understand this is to open a Gotway wheel. So much wasted space (KS is even worse).

Take an ACM, Tesla, or msuper. Make the shell a little more boxy, and you easily have enough space for four standard 3P Gotway battery packs instead of two (or two semi-aborted 2P ones like in the Tesla). So a 3200Wh Tesla or ACM-sized wheel is quite easily possible, not even speaking of the msuper which is still considered very compact for all its wasted space:efef2e0fff:

Look at the Z10 - 18 inch ultra wide tire and 1000Wh, and it's as big as an ACM. Look at the Nikola size in comparison, even bigger than a 19 inch wide tire MSX.

People ask for more battery because 90% of the work is just Gotway literally putting more battery in. It's very natural to ask.

Here's the inside of my ACM, by far Gotway's most compact wheel (never mind the fried electronics:efee8319ab:). Where the board is is empty space on the other side. So you can see where people are coming from - get the board out of the way (on top like Tesla) and you're 90% there putting 3200Wh in:efee47c9c8:

1.jpg

Some very good points, I do not claim to have all the answers or if to divide battery/BMS packs into smaller sized to be able to add more of them for  any given size, do suspects it's not cost effective to make a wide range of different batt/BMS packs for different models though.

Also think at 50% or less the good bits are just gone anyway and turn into a old piece of slowmorcycle, of course it is possible to ride normally but even so, more battery is great for many things imho. 3200Wh sounds like heaven to me but 240 cells and I can live with another extra 6 kilos or so, but something inside me just start doing math, 12p is more than enough right? 24x10p, powwaahhh :w00t2:

houseofjob have go6t a point, but I just assumed price was for 84v/1600Wh, not sure why I took that for granted, perhaps a bit egotistical but I think I just did and not even considering anything else, unless more on offer?

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1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Adding a battery later is absurdly more costly than the extra price if you buy it right away.

And what was the reason people added the capacity only later? Did you ask them? My humble guess is: price:efee47c9c8: "I'm not sure I needed it and it was expensive as it is". Only later they realized they needed the range/capacity they found overpriced earlier.

Hey, I'm only reporting the buying habits of others I've seen. You're only preaching to the choir :D

Of course, the reason is cost, limited ability to spend upfront money.

 

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

It didn't use to be like that. That came with the Tesla which cost as much as the 1600Wh ACM before. I will always remember that disappointment lol.

Supply and demand, is what it is. Gotway benefits from their non-stop wheel manufacturing pace.

Only way to stop it is to ban Gotway.

Good luck with that!

 

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

All you need to understand this is to open a Gotway wheel. So much wasted space (KS is even worse).

Take an ACM, Tesla, or msuper. Make the shell a little more boxy, and you easily have enough space for four standard 3P Gotway battery packs instead of two (or two semi-aborted 2P ones like in the Tesla). So a 3200Wh Tesla or ACM-sized wheel is quite easily possible, not even speaking of the msuper which is still considered very compact for all its wasted space:efef2e0fff:

Yup true, lots of wasted space.

But design is what attracts new buyers, and boxy does not attract the newbie eye. And existing buyership does not count for corporate growth FWIW, and corporate growth is necessary to achieve economy of scale, ie. reducing overall cost.

 

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1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

I will most likely be buying this wheel. But even I wouldn't pay over $2000 for it.

The market will establish the price. If it is indeed priced at $2500 and it sells well, than the market has spoken and we (including me) are indeed a minority.

If the Chinese prices continue their cost trajectory, this bodes well American/European manufacturer's to come into existence.

Excellent point, how amazing if some upstarted company in US/EU could make that happen, one on each continent minimum, please? :D

Here in EU we have the east where there are are lots of young, smart people who could make it cheaper than here in west EU I suspect, would be a joy to see and proper competition would only drive it all forward, price, performance, quality.

I can dream, can I not? :thumbup:

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4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I will most likely be buying this wheel. But even I wouldn't pay over $2000 for it.

The market will establish the price. If it is indeed priced at $2500 and it sells well, than the market has spoken and we (including me) are indeed a minority.

If the Chinese prices continue their cost trajectory, this bodes well American/European manufacturer's to come into existence.

Knew it!

Lol, the real question will be if the price is just on the edge, like I'm thinking $2300 USD.

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Just now, Electroman said:

Excellent point, how amazing if some upstarted company in US/EU could make that happen, one on each continent minimum, please? :D

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

If the Chinese prices continue their cost trajectory, this bodes well American/European manufacturer's to come into existence.

Answer (at least for the US): Shane Chen / Inventist Legal Team.

 

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