MSuper X vs. KS18L: Has Gotway become 'safe enough'?

[eddiemoy]

21 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Eddiemoy, with all respect, you are not more objective than the rest of us. You also are a human being.

Being loud about it and getting offended about who is a basher, who is a fanboy, topped with your view on how you see yourself as objective but others not... Can you see how that reads at a forum as you not being very objective at all?

You have your personal values and yardsticks, and the Gotway firmware issue seem to have crossed a line for you. Please try to understand that it is only your personal line, based on your opinions and expectations. Nothing objective about that.

We all are here to share our opinions. Saying fanboys are not objective but you think you are doesn't quite come out the way you hoped.

Disclaimer: I am a brand-gnostic basher and a fanboy, incapable of being truly objective. GW "rodeo" crossed a line for me too, how they handled it was inexcusable. I'm waiting for my first GW, the Msuper X.

Great teardown and analysis! Luckily no safety related issues. Recap: Msuper X seems good for tinkerers, others need to wait. Gotway really only changes the individual things that break a lot. Their only strong suit is the instant idea-to-product speed, but what new they design they get wrong. Others are also at 2kW and 50km/h now. If some other name manufacturer starts slabbing 1600Wh batteries on their wheels, Gotway needs a really fast company overhaul.

Well, you are entitled to your option. My definition of a fanboy is someone who tries to write off bad for good.  Or totally ignore the bad.  Glossing over issues.  I state facts and where I state my opionion, I try to label it an opinion.  Some don’t know the difference.  I hope you know what is fact and what is opinion.   Some examples below.

‘Gotway has a bad safety rep, fact

gotway insides look amateurish.  Fact

i think gotway sucks, opinion.

i hate the way gotway Msuper rides, opinion.

gotway Msuper is top heavy, fact.

kingsong and inmotion has bugs in their latest firmware, 18Land V10F, fact  

objective is trying to keep personal opinion out of the facts being stated.  

[novazeus]

if i say gotways are hideously ugly, i shouldn’t need to characterize my statement with “imho”.

obviously that’s my opinion, like assholes, everybody has one. 

u can’t debate my opinion or convince me gotways aren’t ugly.

beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

i think all my wheels are attractive, if i didn’t, i wouldn’t have bought them.

i like my girls and wheels pretty. i’m just a shallow individual, i guess.

can’t wait to get an up close with the 18L and Z10!

[Marcglider]

23 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

objective is trying to keep personal opinion out of the facts being stated.  

Exactly @eddiemoy, if we can add trying to be accurate in rightly dividing and making clear if these opinions or objective observations are a safety concern or a quality concern, then people can use these posts to make decisions they feel good about and are reasonably accurate, Thats All...

[mrelwood]

48 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

objective is trying to keep personal opinion out of the facts being stated.  

I don't think you were succesful, fact.

[Marcglider]

1 minute ago, mrelwood said:

I don't think you were succesful, fact.

[eddiemoy]

14 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I don't think you were succesful, fact.

If you think, then it’s your opinion.  Proves you don’t know the difference between opinion and fact.  Makes sense now.  

[novazeus]

no offense to anyone that has been hurt, but since i joined this forum, and i could have missed something, so please enlighten me if i’m wrong, most all of these accidents i’ve read about, appear to be operator error.

when i first started looking into these wheels, some of the forum experts warned that these wheels could cutoff at any second. doesn’t seem that has been reported this past year.

please prove me wrong. if they are a bunch of cut outs, cut offs whatever, pls lmk.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

If you think, then it’s your opinion.  Proves you don’t know the difference between opinion and fact.  Makes sense now.  

So this is a language barrier after all. And I thought I was the one having the more challenged position. Let me explain:

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I don't think you were succesful, fact

The first clause (up until the period) in the above sentence tells us what I think. While I’m the only one who can confirm whether this thought is a fact or not, I think I’ve made my position quite clear.

[who_the]

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

no offense to anyone that has been hurt, but since i joined this forum, and i could have missed something, so please enlighten me if i’m wrong, most all of these accidents i’ve read about, appear to be operator error.

Well-observed. In more than 10,000 documented miles on four 84v Gotway wheels, I've never experienced so much as a blip I could blame on my wheel. Nearly all of my crashes have been due to pavement/terrain issues, or an error between my own ears.

[eddiemoy]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

So this is a language barrier after all. And I thought I was the one having the more challenged position. Let me explain:

The first clause (up until the period) in the above sentence tells us what I think. While I’m the only one who can confirm whether this thought is a fact or not, I think I’ve made my position quite clear.

Yes Yes, you made it clear that you, not thinking is a fact.  Good nice and clear now.  

[eddiemoy]

7 hours ago, novazeus said:

no offense to anyone that has been hurt, but since i joined this forum, and i could have missed something, so please enlighten me if i’m wrong, most all of these accidents i’ve read about, appear to be operator error.

when i first started looking into these wheels, some of the forum experts warned that these wheels could cutoff at any second. doesn’t seem that has been reported this past year.

please prove me wrong. if they are a bunch of cut outs, cut offs whatever, pls lmk.

Depends on if you categorize cut offs as operator error.  Plenty of those.  But again, you can say the operator pushed the unit beyond their limit.  Even with King Song Fuse blowing is when they pushed it up a hill carrying 200+ lbs.

If you rule out high speed and low battery cutouts, I only know of the gotway oscillation firmware issue where many were thrown from their wheels after hitting a specific condition.  

Other than that I haven’t seen people getting hurt when the unit fail out of the blue when riding normally.  

[Xoltri]

17 hours ago, trya said:

You may want to review this article from @EcoDrift. Lots of pictures and interesting notes.

link with google auto-translate

Speaking of bias, they really hate Gotway don't they? Haha.  I agree with them on a few points for sure though. The pads are terrible, mine are not really stuck to the wheel on the edges either.  Using an incorrect screw is inexcusable.  But overall I think they did the wheel a disservice in their review on a couple fronts.  1, they reviewed a broken wheel.  No indication of how it was broken.  What if Jason reviewed the broken KS18L he received? I start on my right leg and the shell does not rub.  Mine did not arrive with a broken shell. 2, they complain that on sharp turns the pedals dip.  This is embarrassing, they should know better, this is a calibration issue and is easily fixed.  Mine do not dip.

The ergonomics, sure I get that's personal and from photos I believe the KS18L to be the clear winner, although I have not tried it.  Honestly when I first got on the wheel I noticed that it pressed on the top of my legs different than I was used to.  But after 150km now this way more comfortable than my old KS16, bad pads and all.  I'm sure they've forgotten how uncomfortable it was to learn to ride an EUC in the beginning, the inside of my legs were bruised and raw.  Surely there will be a less severe but similar transition to riding a new wheel.

On my KS16 I had a lot of foot cramping issues, I mostly just rode through them or took a break every once in a while.  This wheel is so comfortable to ride I'm able to go for much longer distances without stopping than I ever have before.  I think due to their bias they never gave it a chance.

[Marcglider]

4 minutes ago, Xoltri said:

Speaking of bias, they really hate Gotway don't they? Haha.  I agree with them on a few points for sure though. The pads are terrible, mine are not really stuck to the wheel on the edges either.  Using an incorrect screw is inexcusable.  But overall I think they did the wheel a disservice in their review on a couple fronts.  1, they reviewed a broken wheel.  No indication of how it was broken.  What if Jason reviewed the broken KS18L he received? I start on my right leg and the shell does not rub.  Mine did not arrive with a broken shell. 2, they complain that on sharp turns the pedals dip.  This is embarrassing, they should know better, this is a calibration issue and is easily fixed.  Mine do not dip.

The ergonomics, sure I get that's personal and from photos I believe the KS18L to be the clear winner, although I have not tried it.  Honestly when I first got on the wheel I noticed that it pressed on the top of my legs different than I was used to.  But after 150km now this way more comfortable than my old KS16, bad pads and all.  I'm sure they've forgotten how uncomfortable it was to learn to ride an EUC in the beginning, the inside of my legs were bruised and raw.  Surely there will be a less severe but similar transition to riding a new wheel.

On my KS16 I had a lot of foot cramping issues, I mostly just rode through them or took a break every once in a while.  This wheel is so comfortable to ride I'm able to go for much longer distances without stopping than I ever have before.  I think due to their bias they never gave it a chance.

The title of this thread is "MSuper X vs. KS18L: Has Gotway become 'safe enough'?

Like I have been saying... There needs to be clear distinctions and accuracy on posts between: Opinion, Fact, Safety, Quality, etc... Then we can all use the information to determine what will work best for us individually.... Maybe I am asking too much?? 

[trya]

24 minutes ago, Xoltri said:

Speaking of bias, they really hate Gotway don't they? Haha.  I agree with them on a few points for sure though.

Yes, I believe that they (as EUC dealers and distributors) do dislike Gotway, based on two main (as far as I know) facts: the worst service statistics (compared to other brands) and unreliable vendor/dealer relationship (I don't know details). However, the article provides plenty of interesting and valuable information, and the "bias" can be easily ignored

[EZhel]

On 7/1/2018 at 3:27 AM, ndmcc said:

Like many others right now, I'm debating between possibly upgrading to King Song's KS18L or Gotway's MSuper X (I was looking at the Z10 as well, but narrowed it down to just the two after much consideration). I love my KS14D to death, and it has been a blast to learn on it and ride it around town, but its range and top speed are juuuust under what I need. I don't want to have to upgrade for a while due to how expensive (for me) these wheels can be, so I'm going all out if I end up upgrading. My choice has come down to these factors (I felt a table was the best way to show my thoughts):

I'm also a bit worried about Gotway's app and connectivity situation, but I know that with enough persistence and troubleshooting/app switching you can get done what you need to get done on either wheel despite each brand's app quirks. I would spring for the MSX right away, if it wasn't for the safety concerns over Gotway's products. I just recently joined the EUC community, but from what I can gather, Gotway has been improving on safety and shifting away from their history of high failure rates, seeing as to how most of the MSX's improvements over the MS V3S+ have to with durability, like improving the MOSFETs and implementing metal screw holds. However, after seeing the messy inside of an MSX versus the clean inside of an 18L we've come to love and expect from King Song, my doubts returned about Gotway's quality measures. I'm also a bit concerned about how there was a structural difference between the first and second batch of the MSX... What if there's an issue in the second batch that will be fixed in the third batch, that we haven't discovered yet? 

So, I wonder what your guys' opinion is on this matter. Should I go with the MSX, arguably the highest-performing wheel available right now despite Gotway's shaky track record with quality, or deal with the shortcomings of the (still very respectable) KS18L for the sake of historical reliability? Also, this is my first post on this forum, and I know this is a hot topic right now, so please let me know if I would be better suited to post somewhere else or delete the post entirely. Thanks! 

My KS18L has 80 km real life range (I'm kinda shocked to find that out), 75 kg rider - and that is quite a lot, there are also small light fast chargers that can charge half battery in 50 minutes or so, so I'm not sure if range difference matters that much.

High speeds are basically the same - there isn't much practical difference between 50 and 58 kmh, both can be achieved rarely, and if you ride 50 kmh a lot, perhaps you'd be better with a motorcycle.

KingSong has wireless firmware updates, which is a huge plus.

KS18L has central telescopic handle with motor disengagement sensor, which adds quite a lot of quality of life, while MSuperX has rear handle which doesn't fix

I've ordered an MSuperX too, but currently being in serious doubt if that was a good idea.

EcoDrift disassembles and rides an MSuperX.

[Electroman]

32 minutes ago, EZhel said:

My KS18L has 80 km real life range (I'm kinda shocked to find that out), 75 kg rider - and that is quite a lot, there are also small light fast chargers that can charge half battery in 50 minutes or so, so I'm not sure if range difference matters that much.

High speeds are basically the same - there isn't much practical difference between 50 and 58 kmh, both can be achieved rarely, and if you ride 50 kmh a lot, perhaps you'd be better with a motorcycle.

KingSong has wireless firmware updates, which is a huge plus.

KS18L has central telescopic handle with motor disengagement sensor, which adds quite a lot of quality of life, while MSuperX has rear handle which doesn't fix

I've ordered an MSuperX too, but currently being in serious doubt if that was a good idea.

EcoDrift disassembles and rides an MSuperX.

Only time will tell, I still have my doubts about disengagement solution of the KS18L though and since the first time I saw the type of load censor used instead of a beaker? A bit surprised a company like KS would go down that route, with a more expensive S type cell of higher quality I could understand it but counterproductive from a cost perspective I suspect, hence the whole idea about load cell out the window but I admit I am speculating freely  and only based of my own experience using similar looking load cells. They obviously work in bathroom scales etc, the problem I have had with my 50kg simple China no brand name flat cells is reliability, not able to calibrate to a point where I am happy and the biggest one material fatigue simply destroying them way too early.

If with time KS show us the load cell will be functioning properly and keep working when the wheel aging I'll eat all my speculations and be happy for everyone who bought the 18L, seams to be a fine wheel in general as expected. Not sure it apply everywhere for every rider but if 50 vs 58 would be  number we often see in real life I think that is quite a bit, I mean it's close to 1/6 and for me the difference between 20km/h and 28km/h is noticeable for sure, but yeah I strongly suspect will not try to push my MSX into the 50km/h+ range too often either hehe. ?

[esaj]

36 minutes ago, Electroman said:

Only time will tell, I still have my doubts about disengagement solution of the KS18L though and since the first time I saw the type of load censor used instead of a beaker? A bit surprised a company like KS would go down that route, with a more expensive S type cell of higher quality I could understand it but counterproductive from a cost perspective I suspect, hence the whole idea about load cell out the window but I admit I am speculating freely  and only based of my own experience using similar looking load cells. They obviously work in bathroom scales etc, the problem I have had with my 50kg simple China no brand name flat cells is reliability, not able to calibrate to a point where I am happy and the biggest one material fatigue simply destroying them way too early.

If with time KS show us the load cell will be functioning properly and keep working when the wheel aging I'll eat all my speculations and be happy for everyone who bought the 18L, seams to be a fine wheel in general as expected. Not sure it apply everywhere for every rider but if 50 vs 58 would be  number we often see in real life I think that is quite a bit, I mean it's close to 1/6 and for me the difference between 20km/h and 28km/h is noticeable for sure, but yeah I strongly suspect will not try to push my MSX into the 50km/h+ range too often either hehe. ?

Haven't followed up closely on the issue, but I think some people also reported that the motor could turn on and off while carrying it in stairs (the wheel jumping up and down in your hand engages and disengages the motor shutdown)... nice idea but apparently doesn't work that well in real life (even if the load cell is "sturdy" enough, which I can't say whether it actually is). Probably the InMotion way of a button under the handle is better   

[EZhel]

7 minutes ago, esaj said:

some people also reported that the motor could turn on and off while carrying it in stairs

Yea KS18L behaved like that initially (10-15 secs to engage motor while still being held in air), but that was fixed with the next firmware update some time ago.

I lift my KS18L often now, and never ever did it fail on me, disengaging in air or when standing still, or not engaging when I lift it up. Works flawlessly. Last update calibrates it well, there's also calibration in the app, so it can be said that the sensor problem is fixed.

[Electroman]

42 minutes ago, esaj said:

Haven't followed up closely on the issue, but I think some people also reported that the motor could turn on and off while carrying it in stairs (the wheel jumping up and down in your hand engages and disengages the motor shutdown)... nice idea but apparently doesn't work that well in real life (even if the load cell is "sturdy" enough, which I can't say whether it actually is). Probably the InMotion way of a button under the handle is better   

Ohh so already some problems?

I don't follow closely so not seen that but yeah perhaps even if it is sturdy enough and just some implementation, trimming in of a new solution so to speak they might get it to work better with time, some batch later?

I admit it's all speculations from my side but I think you are correct and that a simple button switch under a handle could be if not more reliable at least easier to implement since a proven on/off concept?

[joku]

1 hour ago, Electroman said:

Ohh so already some problems?

I don't follow closely so not seen that but yeah perhaps even if it is sturdy enough and just some implementation, trimming in of a new solution so to speak they might get it to work better with time, some batch later?

I admit it's all speculations from my side but I think you are correct and that a simple button switch under a handle could be if not more reliable at least easier to implement since a proven on/off concept?

I saw in a video where they said the simple button switch is patented by InMotion, so they can't do it.

[Electroman]

4 minutes ago, joku said:

I saw in a video where they said the simple button switch is patented by InMotion, so they can't do it.

They patented a power switch, sound like Apple rectangle with rounded corners and all that again, if anyone remember?

But would explain why I suppose, thanks for info

 

[stephen]

@EUC GUY thx for finding the time to test the msx much appreciated and to everyone that posts tbf??

so eucguy is testing the msx on hills to start with and over heating ,,wow I'd never want to go up that hill that many times so think my board will be ok lol ,, the board and it's connections look solid only time  will tell if it holds up but it does look very good . i love the big traction 3inch wheel .. with kingsong and inmotion having a few problems with there new wheels the msx is doing well ?

here's eucguys videos anyway, think he's to modest to post himself so I've done it for him ??

 

[eddiemoy]

I was thinking of the King Song 18L motor and was wondering if they made any changes to it at all from the 18S.  The 18S was 1500W on 67v, the new 18L would be 1880W just on the upgrade to 84V.  Hm...

[Marty Backe]

20 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

I was thinking of the King Song 18L motor and was wondering if they made any changes to it at all from the 18S.  The 18S was 1500W on 67v, the new 18L would be 1880W just on the upgrade to 84V.  Hm...

Increasing the system voltage does not equate to more power consumed within the motor. It can, based on how the electronics are implemented, but it's not a given.

[Lutalo]

7 hours ago, stephen said:

@EUC GUY thx for finding the time to test the msx much appreciated and to everyone that posts tbf??

so eucguy is testing the msx on hills to start with and over heating ,,wow I'd never want to go up that hill that many times so think my board will be ok lol ,, the board and it's connections look solid only time  will tell if it holds up but it does look very good . i love the big traction 3inch wheel .. with kingsong and inmotion having a few problems with there new wheels the msx is doing well ?

here's eucguys videos anyway, think he's to modest to post himself so I've done it for him ??

 

Informative limits testing. Why more than one overheat test? I was convinced that it was a robust wheel after the first overheat. I spent the rest of the video wincing on the rider's behalf and hoping that he wouldn't blow 2 large to test a wheel; good news is that my worst fears were not realized.

Hey, I have to say thanks to a man much braver than me, because he just performed a test to which I would not give one thought; especially, not immediately after plunking down 2 large of my hard earned cash.