MSuper X vs. KS18L: Has Gotway become 'safe enough'?

[Unventor]

9 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

The very same thing happened a couple of months ago to me downtown DC on my KS 18 with tons of onlookers; embarrassing. 

Some very fine honeys were watching me glide, so I ignored the beeps to sort of strut my capabilities for the ladies. Bad decision for which I paid with humiliation and embarrassment, but at least no injuries as I was well-padded. Can't blame Kingsong for that sort of stupidity.

Ohh you were hoping on injuries so they could nurse you back to perfect shape again  ??

[novazeus]

45 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

?? very nice bike. Reminds me of a B King, Suzuki's street fighter version of the Busa. Is that what it is?

2008 ktm superduke “r”. v-twin liter bike. extreme corner carver. at an outing at tail of the dragon, left a bunch of cbr 1000’s in the dust. not me, some factory riders.

mine is under 400 pounds. i think like 155hp stock. i removed the catalytic converter. akro headers and silencers. they only brought 50 to the states that year. $16k msrp.

a younger friend of mine wanted to buy it and i might have sold it to him but i knew he’d kill himself in less than 24 hours. 

kinda like the gotways, some of the riders want to push that envelope it seems, we’re men and doing stupid things is what we do.

[Lutalo]

3 hours ago, Unventor said:

Ohh you were hoping on injuries so they could nurse you back to perfect shape again  ??

Yeah! That's the ticket.

[Lutalo]

3 hours ago, novazeus said:

2008 ktm superduke “r”. v-twin liter bike. extreme corner carver. at an outing at tail of the dragon, left a bunch of cbr 1000’s in the dust. not me, some factory riders.

mine is under 400 pounds. i think like 155hp stock. i removed the catalytic converter. akro headers and silencers. they only brought 50 to the states that year. $16k msrp.

a younger friend of mine wanted to buy it and i might have sold it to him but i knew he’d kill himself in less than 24 hours. 

kinda like the gotways, some of the riders want to push that envelope it seems, we’re men and doing stupid things is what we do.

Awesome bike. I like the street fighter set-up. If I run across a B-King I might nab it just to have a rare street fighter Hyabusa setup.

By the way, doing stupid things is how we men demonstrate that we still got it.

[joku]

Seems like you guys are brushing the crashes off as user error, but I've heard about several resellers having issues with gotway's failing. I've heard percentages thrown around like 15% although I'm not sure how true it is. I guess it doesn't matter until it happens to you, but it's interesting that a larger battery will cause people to forget about their own safety. 

[Lutalo]

5 hours ago, joku said:

 

 

5 hours ago, joku said:

Seems like you guys are brushing the crashes off as user error, but I've heard about several resellers having issues with gotway's failing. I've heard percentages thrown around like 15% although I'm not sure how true it is. I guess it doesn't matter until it happens to you, but it's interesting that a larger battery will cause people to forget about their own safety. 

I think that 15% measures failures of new GW wheels within the 1st hour of riding after unboxing. Someone more familiar with that issue can elaborate and elucidate. 

In any case, a 15% failure rate also means an 85% success rate. Those odds have been proven playable for some buyers.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Lutalo said:

 

I think that 15% measures failures of new GW wheels within the 1st hour of riding after unboxing. Someone more familiar with that issue can elaborate and elucidate.

IIRC it was a total amount of sold Gotways to be brought back for any reason. Most of them didn’t include personal injury. For example the burnt MosFets were almost all happening when accelerating from behind a (tiny) obstacle.

1 hour ago, Lutalo said:

In any case, a 15% failure rate also means an 85% success rate. Those odds have been proven playable for some buyers.

I don’t think 85% looks any brighter... It’s definitely still not the chance I’d be taking, but all common issues on the 15% returnees have been rectified in newer Gotways. The way they keep shooting in the dark means that new random issues may still appear, but it seems the percent is hugely diminished for 2018 models. I’d love to see data on that though.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

IIRC it was a total amount of sold Gotways to be brought back for any reason. Most of them didn’t include personal injury. For example the burnt MosFets were almost all happening when accelerating from behind a (tiny) obstacle.

I don’t think 85% looks any brighter... It’s definitely still not the chance I’d be taking, but all common issues on the 15% returnees have been rectified in newer Gotways. The way they keep shooting in the dark means that new random issues may still appear, but it seems the percent is hugely diminished for 2018 models. I’d love to see data on that though.

I've owned 9 Gotways. One had a problem out of the box (firmware). That puts me at 11%. And one might argue that a firmware issue doesn't fall under the same category of what most people think of as early failures (wheel won't balance, motor dead, etc.).

[em1barns]

Night ride the other day: 5 gotway, 3 Inmotion. Did a quick survey: 1 burned motherboard for Inmotion, 13 for Gotway, including one that night. 

[Lutalo]

17 hours ago, Lutalo said:

 

 

15 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t think 85% looks any brighter... It’s definitely still not the chance I’d be taking, but all common issues on the 15% returnees have been rectified in newer Gotways. The way they keep shooting in the dark means that new random issues may still appear, but it seems the percent is hugely diminished for 2018 models. I’d love to see data on that though.

Thanks for the clarification on metrics that the rate quantified. Yeah, I totally understand if you don't consider 85% success rate good enough to trust a wheel; I get it. However, there are other buyers who weigh cost/risk vs benefit/reward in different ways. People assess benefit based on two primary factors: 1. Depth of desire for the benefits/reward offered. 2. Substitutability/Availability of alternatives (can I get what I want somewhere else). 

Cost vs Benefit is a floating assessment in that it it is going to vary from person to person and from situation to situation. The subjectivity of the cost vs benefit assessment is the very thing that ultimately makes the whole GW vs KS argument pointless; if the goal is to determine which wheel is best.

On the other hand, the arguments about the products ensue because what we purchase is a personal decision, people take their purchases personally and feel it necessary to defend their decisions when presented to others who have made different choices also for personal reasons. It can good in the sense that it may help a potential buyer more carefully weigh priorities before buying.

EUC's in general have a very short history. Since the historical record on GW is not probably not lengthy enough to fully reward/inform a stiff anti-brand posture on the product.

Due to the short history, perception bias is somewhat flimsy, and many customers will react more strongly to reported changes within the organization. Fresh consumers can be more easily won over, and if they believe GW has improved QA they will buy. Whether or not they have improved QA will be revealed with time.

Longer product and customer relationship histories create more stubborn perception biases. That are more difficult for a company to overcome. So it is a great time for GW to actually reduce general complaints from failures.

 

[Lutalo]

4 minutes ago, em1barns said:

Night ride the other day: 5 gotway, 3 Inmotion. Did a quick survey: 1 burned motherboard for Inmotion, 13 for Gotway, including one that night. 

Wow!

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, em1barns said:

Night ride the other day: 5 gotway, 3 Inmotion. Did a quick survey: 1 burned motherboard for Inmotion, 13 for Gotway, including one that night. 

But where do I go to buy the alternative to the Mten3, the MCM5, the ACM, the MSuper X, the Monster, etc.? Nowhere.

Gotway makes such compelling wheels for the performance minded rider, that said rider is willing to overlook their deficiencies. And that's why they are still in business and people continue to line up to buy their wheels.

[em1barns]

53 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

But where do I go to buy the alternative to the Mten3, the MCM5, the ACM, the MSuper X, the Monster, etc.? Nowhere.

Gotway makes such compelling wheels for the performance minded rider, that said rider is willing to overlook their deficiencies. And that's why they are still in business and people continue to line up to buy their wheels.

Topic is called safety, as far as I can tell?

[Marcglider]

12 hours ago, joku said:

Seems like you guys are brushing the crashes off as user error, but I've heard about several resellers having issues with gotway's failing. I've heard percentages thrown around like 15% although I'm not sure how true it is. I guess it doesn't matter until it happens to you, but it's interesting that a larger battery will cause people to forget about their own safety. 

This "GOTWAY VS KINGSONG" argument that never seems to end is kind of wearing thin.... compiling and using percentages obtained from dis-similar situations to justify one's personal opinion is misleading. I own 3 KingSong wheels, my 14D had a board fail a couple of weeks after I purchased it... that makes my KS failure rate 33%... should I say KS is a piece of shit because of such a high failure rate for me personally???

It seems very obvious and clear that the guys who vehemently defend KS like @eddiemoy are very safety conscious and I totally agree with his reasoning. 

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Gotway makes such compelling wheels for the performance minded rider, that said rider is willing to overlook their deficiencies. And that's why they are still in business and people continue to line up to buy their wheels.

I totally agree with this statement as well... (Props to Marty for what I consider Honest evaluations on Gotway)

Here are a few facts that one can agree or disagree with: The build quality of KS is superior to Gotway at the moment but continues in the right direction... Gotway riders contributing to this forum "in general" seem to push the limits of their wheels more regularly... KS continues to have a very conservative approach with their firmware design limiting top speeds, non canceling tilt-back and large speed reductions with battery usage among others...

People need to figure out their risk to reward tolerance, choose what fits their situation and have fun... taking data from riders that are pushing the envelope is useless. I suppose I could "ride the tiltback" on my 16S long enough and have a real nice face plant... I also suppose I could write a post of that crash and someone will use my stupidity to justify their point of view...

I am looking forward to getting my new Gotway's... I will be very cautious in the beginning, after a reasonable period of time if I have no issues or problems, I am going to take advantage of the higher performance which is the reason I am getting these in the first place...

 

[ir_fuel]

4 hours ago, em1barns said:

Night ride the other day: 5 gotway, 3 Inmotion. Did a quick survey: 1 burned motherboard for Inmotion, 13 for Gotway, including one that night. 

WTF ...

btw where do you do that night riding?

[em1barns]

3 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

WTF ...

btw where do you do that night riding? 

Brussels. My biggest gripe with my MSuper3 was that, while enjoyable to ride:

a) it could have killed me with the oscillation firmware issue. Arguably, this is gone

b) being gone in repair 7 times (4 motherboards, 3 flats), I was fed up of going to the vendor service (and I was lucky it was nearby Brussels where I live)

No flats or motherboard issue on my V5+ / v8, and they have twice the mileage my MSuper3 had, and did the same trips. So my experience might be an outliar one, but I am personally done with them atm.

[ir_fuel]

Just now, em1barns said:

Brussels. My biggest gripe with my MSuper3 was that, while enjoyable to ride

"Brussels". Brussels is big  

You ride in the center or in the places around it such as Tervuren, Woluwe etc etc?

[em1barns]

16 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

"Brussels". Brussels is big  

You ride in the center or in the places around it such as Tervuren, Woluwe etc etc?

Brussels as in Brussels city center :).

[eddiemoy]

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I've owned 9 Gotways. One had a problem out of the box (firmware). That puts me at 11%. And one might argue that a firmware issue doesn't fall under the same category of what most people think of as early failures (wheel won't balance, motor dead, etc.).

But Marty, realistically out of the 9 GWs, how many issues did you have?  Be honest.  Shims.  Melted wires.  List them all.  I know they’ve made improvements probably due to you having issues.  Don’t play it all off saying there were no issues other than firmware.  

[ir_fuel]

9 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

But Marty, realistically out of the 9 GWs, how many issues did you have?  Be honest.  Shims.  Melted wires.  List them all.  I know they’ve made improvements probably due to you having issues.  Don’t play it all off saying there were no issues other than firmware.  

Right, I remember this topic:

 

[eddiemoy]

1 hour ago, Marcglider said:

This "GOTWAY VS KINGSONG" argument that never seems to end is kind of wearing thin.... compiling and using percentages obtained from dis-similar situations to justify one's personal opinion is misleading. I own 3 KingSong wheels, my 14D had a board fail a couple of weeks after I purchased it... that makes my KS failure rate 33%... should I say KS is a piece of shit because of such a high failure rate for me personally???

It seems very obvious and clear that the guys who vehemently defend KS like @eddiemoy are very safety conscious and I totally agree with his reasoning. 

I totally agree with this statement as well... (Props to Marty for what I consider Honest evaluations on Gotway)

Here are a few facts that one can agree or disagree with: The build quality of KS is superior to Gotway at the moment but continues in the right direction... Gotway riders contributing to this forum "in general" seem to push the limits of their wheels more regularly... KS continues to have a very conservative approach with their firmware design limiting top speeds, non canceling tilt-back and large speed reductions with battery usage among others...

People need to figure out their risk to reward tolerance, choose what fits their situation and have fun... taking data from riders that are pushing the envelope is useless. I suppose I could "ride the tiltback" on my 16S long enough and have a real nice face plant... I also suppose I could write a post of that crash and someone will use my stupidity to justify their point of view...

I am looking forward to getting my new Gotway's... I will be very cautious in the beginning, after a reasonable period of time if I have no issues or problems, I am going to take advantage of the higher performance which is the reason I am getting these in the first place...

 

I don’t defend King Song.  I just point out my experiences with them.  You are right about one thing, everyone has a risk tolerance and they must weigh the risk with the reward.  But they must have the info and I’m here to give them a piece of it.  They make their own decision.  As for me, I like the way KS rides vs the Msuper I used to own.  But that is my experience yours may be different.  I don’t like fanboyism.  Those who overlook the issues and just blindly defend gotway or king song or inmotion.  They all have their issues.  Some worst than others. 

Classic case of fanboyism is when EUC Guy tried to argue that Gotway not having a way for users to upgrade their firmware is a good thing.  LMAO.  Peddling a deficiency as a pro!  That is when you know you are talking to a fanboy.  

Marty had already admitted he is a fanboy.  Don’t have to go into that. 

I’m not a fanboy.  I just know what I like and what fits me.  If gotway turns their reputation around and design something I like, I’ll be the first one to praise them.  I like their Tesla, but I didn’t like the flimsy case.  It’s not bashing when it’s true.  I’m not making shit up to bash them.  I’m just pointing out the good and the bad.  Some people see it as just bashing.  Maybe it is that I don’t see much good that resonates with me on gotway.  

Might change in the future.  

[eddiemoy]

8 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Right, I remember this topic:

 

Marty had so many issues with his wheels.  But the fanboyism in him for gotway has caused him to forget or gloss over them.  But I think he was just pointing out that one of the problems was out of the box.  But how many other issues?  Just be objective about it.  People need to know to make a decision.  

Let them decide if they need the range.  Let them decide if they need the speed.  Let them decide if they can ride the butt ugly wheel.  Lol.  Subjective.  

[EUCGUY]

26 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

I don’t defend King Song.  I just point out my experiences with them.  You are right about one thing, everyone has a risk tolerance and they must weigh the risk with the reward.  But they must have the info and I’m here to give them a piece of it.  They make their own decision.  As for me, I like the way KS rides vs the Msuper I used to own.  But that is my experience yours may be different.  I don’t like fanboyism.  Those who overlook the issues and just blindly defend gotway or king song or inmotion.  They all have their issues.  Some worst than others. 

Classic case of fanboyism is when EUC Guy tried to argue that Gotway not having a way for users to upgrade their firmware is a good thing.  LMAO.  Peddling a deficiency as a pro!  That is when you know you are talking to a fanboy.  

Marty had already admitted he is a fanboy.  Don’t have to go into that. 

I’m not a fanboy.  I just know what I like and what fits me.  If gotway turns their reputation around and design something I like, I’ll be the first one to praise them.  I like their Tesla, but I didn’t like the flimsy case.  It’s not bashing when it’s true.  I’m not making shit up to bash them.  I’m just pointing out the good and the bad.  Some people see it as just bashing.  Maybe it is that I don’t see much good that resonates with me on gotway.  

Might change in the future.  

actually, my point was that its not always a good thing. A bug in the firmware can make the wheel behave worse than when you bought it.
And  personally i havent had any problems with the wheels from gw, i just remember when i used the ninebot one and the latest firmware limited my speed even more. that left a bad taste. thats all. i obviously know it can result in good changes also

[eddiemoy]

14 minutes ago, EUC GUY said:

actually, my point was that its not always a good thing. A bug in the firmware can make the wheel behave worse than when you bought it.
And  personally i havent had any problems with the wheels from gw, i just remember when i used the ninebot one and the latest firmware limited my speed even more. that left a bad taste. thats all. i obviously know it can result in good changes also

Didn’t you have the cut out on the acm?  No other issues?  If nothing other than the cutout then that’s great!

Sorry, but having the ability to update firmware is a good thing.  Companies pushing out bad firmware doesn’t mean that having the ability is a bad thing.  Just means they have to test more.  Sure beats GW having to fix the oscillation bug in their firmware by physically taking apart the wheel and connecting it with special tool.  Ask the dealer what they prefer.  Lol

[EUCGUY]

13 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Didn’t you have the cut out on the acm?  No other issues?  If nothing other than the cutout then that’s great!

Sorry, but having the ability to update firmware is a good thing.  Companies pushing out bad firmware doesn’t mean that having the ability is a bad thing.  Just means they have to test more.  Sure beats GW having to fix the oscillation bug in their firmware by physically taking apart the wheel and connecting it with special tool.  Ask the dealer what they prefer.  Lol

I pushed it to the max. ofc it cut out, no more to give. not a fault of the wheel.