MSuper X vs. KS18L: Has Gotway become 'safe enough'?

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, Electroman said:

I hit 59.6km/h

...

I am 90 something kilos

This is good to know! I have once reached 52km/h, and I don’t plan on taking this 91kg torso any faster. But it is good to know that there really is a stupid amount of reserve left for a rider with my weight. Also for acceleration around 40km/h, or slower in a slight uphill.

[MikeV]

On 7/4/2018 at 7:37 PM, eddiemoy said:

Well, you are entitled to your option. My definition of a fanboy is someone who tries to write off bad for good.  Or totally ignore the bad.  Glossing over issues.  I state facts and where I state my opionion, I try to label it an opinion.  Some don’t know the difference.  I hope you know what is fact and what is opinion.   Some examples below.

‘Gotway has a bad safety rep, fact

gotway insides look amateurish.  Fact

i think gotway sucks, opinion.

i hate the way gotway Msuper rides, opinion.

gotway Msuper is top heavy, fact.

kingsong and inmotion has bugs in their latest firmware, 18Land V10F, fact  

objective is trying to keep personal opinion out of the facts being stated.  

Stating something as a fact does not make it so. To say that "Gotway has a bad safety rep," is an inconclusive statement at best. 'Bad' is a relative term. Does Gotway have a bad safety reputation, relative to Kingsong? Maybe. Does Gotway have a bad safety reputation, relative to Boeing? Most definitely. What about their reputation relative to Airwheel?

"gotway insides look amateurish." That is 100% opinion and an absolutely relative statement. An actual fact would read more like, "Gotway uses power cabling that is underrated for the amount of current the motor can be expected to pull," or, "Gotway uses capacitors with a rated lifespan longer than the average cumulative ride time of a wheel."

"gotway Msuper is top heavy," Entirely opinion and subjective. A fact would read, "The Msuper's COG is 8" above its axle. That is higher than 93% of other wheels on the market."

Hope this helps.

[RockyTop]

Seems like more people are switching to GotWay than away from GotWay.   Most of the famous  EUC guys have and tend to prefer a GotWay.  

[Lutalo]

40 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Seems like more people are switching to GotWay than away from GotWay.   Most of the famous  EUC guys have and tend to prefer a GotWay.  

That's a good thing for Gotway if that is true. Great for business. Things are not necessarily as they may seem. Perspective is often a brazen victim of myopia and bias. 

I am a research consultant by trade; collecting market intelligence and interpreting the message in the bottle so to speak. If I had a dollar for every instance I have borne witness to actual research findings turning someone's myopic perception on its head, I would be a billionaire.

You could be witnessing more people buying Gotways, but that could be the result of an expanding market overall; not necessarily because their market share is increasing relative to other brands, or because people are jumping ship from other brands. For example, globally about 38 million electric mobility devices sold last year, up from about 300,000 in less than ten years. Europe sold about 1.6 million and Asia, over 30 million - so, most likely, more people are buying more of all brands period. 

There are several reasons why people change brands: upgrading to larger wheel, specialized expeditions more appropriate to a specific brand - like unpaved trail riding, enthusiast collectors of multiple brands - lot of those guys, curiosity - trying something different,  etc. 

"Famous EUC guys" are essentially just enthusiasts. They very important to industry growth and represent a source of free marketing for the manufacturer - especially of their preferred brand. While it is reasonable for their opinions to have some weight, people should be at least a couple of steps above being sheep when they are considering a purchase. 

[mezzanine]

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

Seems like more people are switching to GotWay than away from GotWay.   Most of the famous  EUC guys have and tend to prefer a GotWay.  

LOL  ie:  weirdos with major self-esteem issues.

 

For any newbs reading this thread: two of the biggest sellers of EUCs in the world (Jason of e-wheels and Ecodrift a Russian seller) published statistics regarding EUC reliability for 2017.  During that year, Gotway wheels were 5X more likely to fail than their competitors.  

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, MikeV said:

Stating something as a fact does not make it so. To say that "Gotway has a bad safety rep," is an inconclusive statement at best.

Perhaps you haven’t read the relevant threads from last year. Msuper warranty repair percentages were at worst 20 times that of KS 16S, mosfets were blown and buggy fw threw off riders like never before. These are not opinions. If they don’t account for a bad rep, nothing will.

Quote

"gotway insides look amateurish." That is 100% opinion

... which many people share.

Quote

An actual fact would read more like, "Gotway uses power cabling that is underrated for the amount of current the motor can be expected to pull,"

... which is no longer true.

I’m afraid your reply might be just what @eddiemoy meant in the quote.

I now ride Gotway since I believe that the major issues have been fixed. That doesn’t blind me from the facts that GW truly isn’t as well put together as KS, uses lesser materials, and designs with a left hand on a rainy monday morning. Or that against all odds it’s the trusted brands that are having the most issues this year.

[MikeV]

6 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Perhaps you haven’t read the relevant threads from last year. Msuper warranty repair percentages were at worst 20 times that of KS 16S, mosfets were blown and buggy fw threw off riders like never before. These are not opinions. If they don’t account for a bad rep, nothing will.

... which many people share.

... which is no longer true.

I’m afraid your reply might be just what @eddiemoy meant in the quote.

I now ride Gotway since I believe that the major issues have been fixed. That doesn’t blind me from the facts that GW truly isn’t as well put together as KS, uses lesser materials, and designs with a left hand on a rainy monday morning. Or that against all odds it’s the trusted brands that are having the most issues this year.

I'm not basing my statements on anything other than having a decent command of the English language. I don't know any of the history that you're referencing.

I'm simply trying to illustrate the difference between a fact and an opinion and how those two would typically be worded.

Peace!

[Michael Tucker]

24 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

LOL  ie:  weirdos with major self-esteem issues.

 

For any newbs reading this thread: two of the biggest sellers of EUCs in the world (Jason of e-wheels and Ecodrift a Russian seller) published statistics regarding EUC reliability for 2017.  During that year, Gotway wheels were 5X more likely to fail than their competitors.  

HOW the wheel fails is important to me. I read some of those seller reports too, but I understood them to report fails of all kinds, from battery problems to lights not working. For me, safety is paramount.  Problems with motor/mainboard while riding or battery/charger problems when I'm not are the only concerns I have.

Also I love all the weirdos' videos!!! Keep up the great work guys, I hope to be a video weirdo too someday!

[Lutalo]

3 hours ago, MikeV said:

Does Gotway have a bad safety reputation, relative to Boeing? 

Why would Gotway be compared to Boeing even in relative sense? Do they make aircraft parts too? ?

[MikeV]

12 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

Why would Gotway be compared to Boeing even in relative sense? Do they make aircraft parts too? ?

It depends. You'd have to ask the people who've been launched from Gotways how much they enjoyed their flight.

No. It would be a horrible comparison, except for the fact that they both have safety reputations... For a company that's destined to be the value brand, as the EUC market levels out, they're probably not that horrible. There will be a bare minimum. And I'm sure that they'll reach it.

Later.

[who_the]

3 hours ago, Lutalo said:

Why would Gotway be compared to Boeing even in relative sense? Do they make aircraft parts too? ?

Entirely apt comparison.

More than 100 Boeing 737's have crashed. Thousands have died. Yet I'd gladly step aboard one tomorrow if the price (and destination) was right.

I "risk" my life every day on my Gotway. I have done so for close to 10,000 miles of challenging, hazard-filled urban riding, and will gleefully do so tomorrow. And the day after, and the one after that, God willing.

Gotway makes the best EUC on the planet, period. Speed, range, torque, braking; other wheels come close, but all fall short. Argue all you want, but the most serious riders — the ones who put their lives on the line on their wheels every day — ride Gotway.

Getting back to the comparison, I'd love an aluminum shell Gotway with aircraft manufacturing tolerances. Although to be honest, I do prefer Airbus...

[Marcglider]

10 minutes ago, who_the said:

Argue all you want, but the most serious riders — the ones who put their lives on the line on their wheels every day — ride Gotway.

I guess I have become one of those "serious" riders that has gone to Gotway without really analyzing why too much... the fact that @MikeV dug up one of Eddies "Gotway Rants" from the past and I read that he recently bought a MSX 100V GOTWAY speaks for itself... don't really need to say more, I personally am looking for his future postings on his opinions of that wheel now that he owns it...  

[Lutalo]

5 hours ago, MikeV said:

There will be a bare minimum. And I'm sure that they'll reach it.

We all hope. Fingers crossed. Gotway, I hope that you are listening. People are not aircraft so no more launching of objects that don't park at airports. ???

[RockyTop]

2 hours ago, Marcglider said:

I guess I have become one of those "serious" riders that has gone to Gotway without really analyzing why too much... the fact that @MikeV dug up one of Eddies "Gotway Rants" from the past and I read that he recently bought a MSX 100V GOTWAY speaks for itself... don't really need to say more, I personally am looking for his future postings on his opinions of that wheel now that he owns it...  

We need some kind of super up vote or love that we can only give out once a day or week. I would have used it here!! 

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, Marcglider said:

read that he recently bought a MSX 100V GOTWAY

@eddiemoy has previously owned a Gotway. In fact, riding and owning seems to have been what informed his earlier opinions, and consequently what made those opinions informed.

I can certainly think of no better way than experience to inform an opinion. It seems reasonable to me that he would ride a popular wheel, as this is the best way to inform an enlightened opinion about wheels.

What is foolish is dismissing an informed opinion as a rant just because one might feel personally wounded by an unflattering opinion of one's choices or preferences. 

I am sure that whatever he opines this time around, will be just as honest as those who have always raved about the brand.  If his opinion about the wheel has changed - bravo,  Gotway. Bravo.

[Lutalo]

3 hours ago, who_the said:

Gotway makes the best EUC on the planet, period. Speed, range, torque, braking; other wheels come close, but all fall short. 

This is a point blank example of someone forcefully stating an opinion as fact on the strength of baseless information - Period. 

Do you honestly believe that other brands "come close,  but fall short" in speed because they don't know how to make faster wheels? Good grief ?.

 

[Lutalo]

4 hours ago, Marcglider said:

I guess I have become one of those "serious" riders that has gone to Gotway without really analyzing why too much... the fact that @MikeV dug up one of Eddies "Gotway Rants" from the past and I read that he recently bought a MSX 100V GOTWAY speaks for itself... don't really need to say more, I personally am looking for his future postings on his opinions of that wheel now that he owns it...  

Well, ignoring the fact that his statement is entirely false, I suppose we could say that you have

[RockyTop]

34 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

 

Do you honestly believe that other brands "come close,  but fall short" in speed because they don't know how to make faster wheels? Good grief ?.

 

  Look, fast and powerful is not for everyone.  I grew up driving race cars and powerful sports bikes. I understand that some people like slow and peaceful and think that is great. I really think that we are taking about different things here. You can’t compare Grandma’s Volvo to a Drag car. 

  All the times in my life when I actually got hurt I was taking it easy and acting like a sane person.      

 

[Lutalo]

3 hours ago, RockyTop said:

All the times in my life when I actually got hurt I was taking it easy and acting like a sane person.  

Be grateful. That's why you are still here to tell the story. 

By the way,  I know well the difference between a "Grandmas Volvo and a drag car". You are talking to someone that has owned, ridden and dragged Suzuki Hyabusas for years. Mine had Ak titanium pipes, PIII, Intake, 6"swingarm with a 250 rolling on the rear. 200+ mph bike. Been there. Done that. Never owned, but swapped bikes with my boys who owned Kwak Ninja 14Rs. Liked the Kwaks, but Busas were my favorite

My EUC of choice is a KS18L; hardly analogous to grandmas Volvo compared to MSX. IMHO more analogous to a Porsche 911 Turbo compared to a Dodge Challenger Hellcat.

I think that the Hellcat is a Badass musclecar, but given a choice of one or the other (and of course cost being no object) I would plunk my dollars down for the finely honed Porsche everytime, because that is what my personal taste demands. 

But, that is just my personal perception of how the wheels compare. Although I like them both a lot, I dig Porsches a bit more than I dig Dodges no matter how fast they make them go in a straight line ??

[Marcglider]

2 hours ago, Lutalo said:

What is foolish is dismissing an informed opinion as a rant just because one might feel personally wounded by an unflattering opinion of one's choices or preferences.

 

1 hour ago, Lutalo said:

This is a point blank example of someone forcefully stating an opinion as fact on the strength of baseless information - Period.

I was really trying to refrain, and hoping it would just die down and I was not going to respond like I am right now... Anyone with little effort could find stuff written in the past that would fall into the category "OPEN MOUTH, INSERT FOOT"... this thread could go on for weeks with out hesitation. 

No one knows except him, but when he posted the stuff above a couple of months ago, I had a big issue with it. Instead of airing it out on the Forum, I contacted him in a PM and with what I think was in a "nice and clear" way, explained allot of the points being made above. We went back and forth a few times and in the end, it was very constructive I felt, I think he understood where I was coming from and I also agreed to disagree on a few things as well with more understanding. I can also say sometimes we want to say something and in the way we do it, it comes out different or produces a different result than we intended. I can not say I am innocent in that department as well in my life.

I will say that since those PM's, I have not heard a lot from him in this department, and I am not going to read into reasoning why now. The one thing that stands out from his posts is he felt like GW needed to be told (much by him) there are Issues with their products and needed to addressed, if people just Praised them, these issues would not get fixed. I do not agree how that was taking place (as detailed above in part), All I know is that he owns a GW now that I think he will like it, and I own 4 and love them with only 1 small issue.

 Prior to that exchange, I owned 3 KS wheels and was thinking about a GW. I was really trying to make my decision with information from this Forum. Those type of posts are not accurate or constructive in helping people on here make decisions in their purchases. I have posted even very recently what I feel is the need for all of us to properly divide what would be considered "fact and opinion" or "safety and quality, etc... I also think that it needs to be exposed (I wish eliminated) people that are acting like they are giving reviews or opinions of a product when they Never used it. 

Everyone has and is entitled to their opinion... Period. If dividing things into their proper category can be accomplished, it would serve as a great service and this Forum would be a great and accurate place for all of us to gather information... 

[Lutalo]

3 minutes ago, Marcglider said:

 

I was really trying to refrain, and hoping it would just die down and I was not going to respond like I am right now... Anyone with little effort could find stuff written in the past that would fall into the category "OPEN MOUTH, INSERT FOOT"... this thread could go on for weeks with out hesitation. 

No one knows except him, but when he posted the stuff above a couple of months ago, I had a big issue with it. Instead of airing it out on the Forum, I contacted him in a PM and with what I think was in a "nice and clear" way, explained allot of the points being made above. We went back and forth a few times and in the end, it was very constructive I felt, I think he understood where I was coming from and I also agreed to disagree on a few things as well with more understanding. I can also say sometimes we want to say something and in the way we do it, it comes out different or produces a different result than we intended. I can not say I am innocent in that department as well in my life.

I will say that since those PM's, I have not heard a lot from him in this department, and I am not going to read into reasoning why now. The one thing that stands out from his posts is he felt like GW needed to be told (much by him) there are Issues with their products and needed to addressed, if people just Praised them, these issues would not get fixed. I do not agree how that was taking place (as detailed above in part), All I know is that he owns a GW now that I think he will like it, and I own 4 and love them with only 1 small issue.

 Prior to that exchange, I owned 3 KS wheels and was thinking about a GW. I was really trying to make my decision with information from this Forum. Those type of posts are not accurate or constructive in helping people on here make decisions in their purchases. I have posted even very recently what I feel is the need for all of us to properly divide what would be considered "fact and opinion" or "safety and quality, etc... I also think that it needs to be exposed (I wish eliminated) people that are acting like they are giving reviews or opinions of a product when they either Never used it. 

Everyone has and is entitled to their opinion... Period. If dividing things into their proper category can be accomplished, it would serve as a great service and this Forum would be a great and accurate place for all of us to gather information... 

Well spoke my friend. Everyone is indeed entitled to a personal opinion. However, I agree that sharing said opinion on open forum should demand conscientiousness to presenting a helpful opinion that is respectful of others ??

[RockyTop]

52 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

Be grateful. That's why you are still here to tell the story. 

I am greatful that I am still here. 

 All the times I have ever gotten hurt was caused by complacency. All the times I did not get hurt was because of awareness, attention and adrenaline. Being complacent is like being drunk and in my case more dangerous.

[Marcglider]

12 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

I agree that sharing said opinion on open forum should demand conscientiousness to presenting a helpful opinion that is respectful of others ??

AGREED!!!!

[Lutalo]

1 minute ago, RockyTop said:

I am greatful that I am still here. 

 All the times I have ever gotten hurt was caused by complacency. All the times I did not get hurt was because of awareness, attention and adrenaline. Being complacent is like being drunk and in my case more dangerous.

Complacency is indeed the worst enemy in most areas of life, but especially when one is piloting a machine that can deadly in the wrong hands. However drunk is probably more dangerous than complacency if one is driving. Home on your sofa with a beer in your hand drunk is much better ??

[Lutalo]

8 hours ago, MikeV said:

It depends. You'd have to ask the people who've been launched from Gotways how much they enjoyed their flight.

No. It would be a horrible comparison, except for the fact that they both have safety reputations... For a company that's destined to be the value brand, as the EUC market levels out, they're probably not that horrible. There will be a bare minimum. And I'm sure that they'll reach it.

Later.

Stay tuned.