MSuper X vs. KS18L: Has Gotway become 'safe enough'?

[stephen]

he's on with more testing too, can't wait to see his next vid it's looking a great wheel with range to ? I'm looking forward to his aftermarket side pads 

[Electroman]

14 minutes ago, stephen said:

he's on with more testing too, can't wait to see his next vid it's looking a great wheel with range to ? I'm looking forward to his aftermarket side pads 

Yeah, or just DIY from a sheet of closed cell neoprene foam and get any thickness, shape and variant you want? I know I will, already made that decision the moment I decided MSX is what I want and before I actually bought it.

Come in a wide range of variants and hardness, softer spongy, harder or rubbery  and even available like this with adhesive already applied on one side:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ADHESIVE-BACKED-BLACK-NEOPRENE-SPONGE-FOAM-RUBBER-SHEET-2mm-15mm-THICK/262636002057?hash=item3d26535b09%3Am%3Am8fgFlTknXM-dbE1dG5tnzQ&var=561538147215

I wish Gotway would have given EUC GUY a freebee 84v MSX too to do the testing on both wheels in parallel, would have been informative to say the least.

[eddiemoy]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Increasing the system voltage does not equate to more power consumed within the motor. It can, based on how the electronics are implemented, but it's not a given.

of course you have to upgrade the controller to handle the power also, but what i've seen with hub motors, that is the case.  see below:

They also have motors built for either speed, Cruiser in this case, or torque, the brute.  This is why I say 2KW motor doesn't mean much unless you know what is is design for, speed or torque.

PHOENIX II Kit :A Guide to Choosing your kit

System	Volts	Amps	Watts	Cruiser High Speed Motor Top Speed		Brute High Torque Motor Top Speed		RoadRunner Efficient, Light Motor Top Speed
				26" Wheel	20" Wheel	26" Wheel	20" Wheel	16" Wheel Builds Only
3625	36V	25A	900W	26mph Mostly Flat	21mph Small Hills	21mph Small Hills	17mph Hills	14mph Hills
4825	48V	25A	1200W	30mph Mostly Flat	25mph Small Hills	25mph Small Hills	20mph Hills	18mph Hills
3640	36V	40A	1440W	32mph Small Hills	26mph Hills	28mph Hills	22mph Steep Hills	NA
4840	48V	40A	1920W	35mph Small Hills	29mph Hills	31mph Hills	25mph Steep Hills	NA
7240	72V	40A	2880W	45mph Small Hills	37mph Hills	37mph Hills	30mph Steep Hills	NA

[Shad0z]

On 7/2/2018 at 5:43 PM, LanghamP said:

I suspect faster wheels may have higher failure rates than previous generation wheels while apparently having lower failure rates.

My reasoning goes this way: survivorship bias has people crashing harder at higher speeds on newer more powerful wheels. As newer wheel prices continue to climb upwards (due to increasing production costs and constraints on dealer markets), the average age of riders able to afford wheels continues to creep upward. Older riders, however, are more vulnerable to falls.

In short, while Segway One owners could get back to us complaining about their wheel failures at 10 mph, no such rider on a 30 mph crash is likely to be in any condition to report back afterwards. Wheel owners who have not yet experienced a wheel failure will think they have a pretty safe wheel.

 

You dont die from 30mph... 

it sure is a hard crash you get, and older people will suffer more injuries, but you wont die... and no, newer generation wheels are safer with better specs and quality improvements...

[esaj]

10 hours ago, Shad0z said:

You dont die from 30mph... 

it sure is a hard crash you get, and older people will suffer more injuries, but you wont die... and no, newer generation wheels are safer with better specs and quality improvements...

Depends, protection, how you land, what surface etc. I'd think that slamming to a wall or other rigid object at 30mph (48km/h) or pavement head first (without a helmet) could be pretty deadly:

A fall off a 3.3 feet desk results in a speed at impact of 10 m.p.h. A 10 m.p.h. change in speed (Delta-V) in a motor vehicle collision is equivalent to falling off a desk. Similarly, a 15 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 7.5 feet - off a step ladder. A 20 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 13.4 feet - off the roof of a one story building. A 25 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 20.5 feet - off a two-story building. A 30 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 30 feet - off a three-story building.

Newer wheels may be more reliable, but that doesn't make you invulnerable.

[Mark Lee]

3 minutes ago, esaj said:

Depends, protection, how you land, what surface etc. I'd think that slamming to a wall or other rigid object at 30mph (48km/h) or pavement head first (without a helmet) could be pretty deadly:

A fall off a 3.3 feet desk results in a speed at impact of 10 m.p.h. A 10 m.p.h. change in speed (Delta-V) in a motor vehicle collision is equivalent to falling off a desk. Similarly, a 15 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 7.5 feet - off a step ladder. A 20 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 13.4 feet - off the roof of a one story building. A 25 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 20.5 feet - off a two-story building. A 30 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 30 feet - off a three-story building.

Newer wheels may be more reliable, but that doesn't make you invulnerable.

Thanks esaj, now that's what I would call putting things in perspective... WOW

[Electroman]

12 hours ago, esaj said:

Depends, protection, how you land, what surface etc. I'd think that slamming to a wall or other rigid object at 30mph (48km/h) or pavement head first (without a helmet) could be pretty deadly:

A fall off a 3.3 feet desk results in a speed at impact of 10 m.p.h. A 10 m.p.h. change in speed (Delta-V) in a motor vehicle collision is equivalent to falling off a desk. Similarly, a 15 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 7.5 feet - off a step ladder. A 20 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 13.4 feet - off the roof of a one story building. A 25 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 20.5 feet - off a two-story building. A 30 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 30 feet - off a three-story building.

Newer wheels may be more reliable, but that doesn't make you invulnerable.

3 story building sounds really bad, now I put into perspective

[Jerome]

23 hours ago, Shad0z said:

You dont die from 30mph... 

it sure is a hard crash you get, and older people will suffer more injuries, but you wont die... and no, newer generation wheels are safer with better specs and quality improvements...

Huh? I think what you mean is you "may not" die" Landing on concrete'asphalt at 30 mph, regardless of age or fitness can easily kill you, especially on a EUC where you are likely to be thrown directly downward as oppose to sliding down the road as when on a bike or skateboard. Many people have died from slipping on ice and hitting their head at a walking pace. It's the cast of the Dice. For Whom the Bell Tolls ..?

[Shad0z]

17 hours ago, Jerome said:

Huh? I think what you mean is you "may not" die" Landing on concrete'asphalt at 30 mph, regardless of age or fitness can easily kill you, especially on a EUC where you are likely to be thrown directly downward as oppose to sliding down the road as when on a bike or skateboard. Many people have died from slipping on ice and hitting their head at a walking pace. It's the cast of the Dice. For Whom the Bell Tolls ..?

Im not saying you cant die and you should go fall at 30mph... a fall at that speed sure is dangerous you could die, my point is just that its not guranteed Instant death. And older wheels arent safer, thats all i was trying to say. 

[Shad0z]

On 9/5/2018 at 7:20 AM, esaj said:

Newer wheels may be more reliable, but that doesn't make you invulnerable.

Thats not the point, the point is that older wheels definetly arent safer

[Jerome]

2 hours ago, Shad0z said:

Im not saying you cant die and you should go fall at 30mph... a fall at that speed sure is dangerous you could die, my point is just that its not guranteed Instant death. And older wheels arent safer, thats all i was trying to say. 

   

[Electroman]

I could die form a lot of things, basically picking my nose could but the odds for that however?

Ok maybe not picking my nose but you get the point, we cross roads each day but I choose to live my life too, does not mean I should not take all the precaution I possibly can to minimize and all risk involved.

Yes falling just walking could theoretically kill me, how I land etc, any condition which would make it indirectly killing me or whatever?

My old ACM for sure is a lot more unsafe vs my MSX, always pondered on mr Backe referring to how much wheels progressed over just last couple of years in terms of progression a'la EUC, still it is a bit of a shocker to experience when not used to many different models of EUC. To those who say more power is most def not needed and certainly not a priority, I disagree 100%, it is making my wheel safer besides other forms of safety on newer wheels. It's true I am not forced to accelerate hard so often, but I do prefer it it's part of my style even though I try to fight urges and ride more responsible, but when doing it without thinking to much and just taking off I am sure glad my wheel can do this and and not just dive on it's nose like the ACM did, a safety feature plain and simple. 

 

 

[Lutalo]

I guess that I am in an existential sort of mood so here it goes.

Lot of stuff could kill us, we are all vulnerable to being killed by something; a caveat awarded by the gift of life. The thing that for me would be certain death is doing nothing because doing something might kill me.

The fact is that the ability to act upon our environment is what makes us feel empowered. Feeling empowered to aim and produce directed outcomes ironically creates a feeling of safety/security.

We use mathematical probabilities and statistics, and safety equipment to support our basic need to feel secure. We take actions that confirms our belief that we have control: we wear helmets when we skydive and have firm faith that the parachute will not fail to open. Even though this has happened, probability tells us that this sort tragedy will usually happen to someone else - so we jump from the plane anyway.

In the end all of this stuff we do to warp our own minds to support our delusions that we are the total alchemist of our individual fate amounts to very little in the whole time space continuum, because in the end our fates are all predetermined by death; which is either a beginning, an end, or both - we will all find out - most of us sooner than we believe we want to.

So you may as well do your best to thrwart known risk while simultaneously accepting that very little is actually known. Wear your helmets and ride your wheels because you might crash and get hurt, but probably won't. Jump from planes because the parachute will probably open even though it might not. Ride your motorcycles, race your cars. Understand the balance of things and live your life to fullest.

Simply put, thwarting known risk is the practice of accepting the possibility of death without inviting it. It's a substandard map in an ocean of unknowns - but its better than nothing. So, Fuggit ??! Squeeze all the juice that you can from life's lemon, and drink a good lemonade because you don't have much time.

[RockyTop]

On 9/5/2018 at 1:20 AM, esaj said:

 

A fall off a 3.3 feet desk results in a speed at impact of 10 m.p.h. A 10 m.p.h. change in speed (Delta-V) in a motor vehicle collision is equivalent to falling off a desk. Similarly, a 15 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 7.5 feet - off a step ladder. A 20 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 13.4 feet - off the roof of a one story building. A 25 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 20.5 feet - off a two-story building. A 30 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 30 feet - off a three-story building.

@esaj For this to be true you would have to hit a solid concrete wall at those speeds without slowing.  Falling to the ground and grinding your body on asphalt is not a sudden stop and would not have the same results.  

[Shad0z]

14 hours ago, RockyTop said:

@esaj For this to be true you would have to hit a solid concrete wall at those speeds without slowing.  Falling to the ground and grinding your body on asphalt is not a sudden stop and would not have the same results.  

Exactly, then there is the faceplant. But there is too much speed to stop, so you slide no matter what, so its like falling off a 3 story building, but while gliding on the side of it. I totally agree

[esaj]

15 hours ago, RockyTop said:

@esaj For this to be true you would have to hit a solid concrete wall at those speeds without slowing.  Falling to the ground and grinding your body on asphalt is not a sudden stop and would not have the same results.  

Thank you, Captain Obvious   

[Chriull]

On 9/5/2018 at 7:20 AM, esaj said:

Depends, protection, how you land, what surface etc. I'd think that slamming to a wall or other rigid object at 30mph (48km/h) or pavement head first (without a helmet) could be pretty deadly:

A fall off a 3.3 feet desk results in a speed at impact of 10 m.p.h. A 10 m.p.h. change in speed (Delta-V) in a motor vehicle collision is equivalent to falling off a desk. Similarly, a 15 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 7.5 feet - off a step ladder. A 20 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 13.4 feet - off the roof of a one story building. A 25 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 20.5 feet - off a two-story building. A 30 m.p.h. change in speed is equivalent to falling 30 feet - off a three-story building.

Newer wheels may be more reliable, but that doesn't make you invulnerable.

 

15 hours ago, RockyTop said:

@esaj For this to be true you would have to hit a solid concrete wall at those speeds without slowing.  Falling to the ground and grinding your body on asphalt is not a sudden stop and would not have the same results.  

As soon as the feet touch the ground the forward momentum is changed (partially/mainly) to a rotation and the upper torso will hit the road with (?a fraction of/almost?) the previous forward speed - aka faceplant.

... if one does not manage to outrun the fall or perform a nice roll ... or one gets some other technique to not brake with the feets first and get the face slammed on the road but get into a slide...

Imho i wont manage some acrobatics or trust in my getting to slide abilities - so i'd go with @esaj's impact examples (maybe a little bit "lower" numbers)

[esaj]

5 minutes ago, Chriull said:

 

As soon as the feet touch the ground the forward momentum is changed (partially/mainly) to a rotation and the upper torso will hit the road with (?a fraction of/almost?) the previous forward speed - aka faceplant.

... if one does not manage to outrun the fall or perform a nice roll ... or one gets some other technique to not brake with the feets first and get the face slammed on the road but get into a slide...

Imho i wont manage some acrobatics or trust in my getting to slide abilities - so i'd go with @esaj's impact examples (maybe a little bit "lower" numbers)

Yeah, like I said, " slamming to a wall or other rigid object at 30mph (48km/h) or pavement head first (without a helmet) could be pretty deadly ". Sure you would probably roll or slide or whatever, and with protective gear likely "just" get some minor or less major injuries, but in the worst case, like slamming to the side of a heavy van that pulled in front of you "out of nowhere", it's pretty close to a vertical fall. Slamming your head to the pavement without a helmet is bad, even falling from standstill, but the forces become greater with speed. "It's not the speed that kills you, but the sudden stop" (or more like, the very fast rate of deceleration).

 

On 9/6/2018 at 2:42 PM, Shad0z said:

Thats not the point, the point is that older wheels definetly arent safer

Most newer wheels are safer, yeah, sort of, at least in the sense that it seems they no longer cut out at high speeds (or appropriately warn of getting near the edge) or with low battery, which is a good thing, but no matter how reliable the wheel is, it's not going to help on a rider error or someone else making a mistake around you (car pulling in front or such).

I still ride while fully aware that it might kill me if I fall or crash badly enough, despite the protective gear, even on a wheel that's capable of "only" 22mph (well, more if you ride the tilt-back). Then again, I might also die reaching for stuff on the high shelves while standing on a swiveling office chair, choke on a piece of chicken or a weird lawnmover accident

[RockyTop]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

 

As soon as the feet touch the ground the forward momentum is changed (partially/mainly) to a rotation and the upper torso will hit the road with (?a fraction of/almost?) the previous forward speed - aka faceplant.

Yes, a small fraction.  

I have crashed several times at speeds between 15 mph and 20 mph on my EUC.  I have not been magically slammed to the ground.

While it is not impossible to covert most of your forward energy into spin that you could use to slam yourself to the ground it would be an engineering marvel.  I have never seen a video of a person on a wheel that faceplants hard enough to stop his forward momentum or even slow down the forward momentum more than normally expected. All that forward momentum is be wasted on road rash instead of impact.

  Another example of bad physics.  Two cars have a head on collision. Both cars traveling at 60 mph. “That is like hitting a wall at 120 mph”  No it is not. It is like hitting a concrete barrier at less than 60 mph.  Here is why. The car was going 60 mph and then it made impact resulting  in a speed of 0 mph. That is a 60 mph difference. I said less than 60 mph because parts of each car would be able to occupy the other giving a small cushion. Concrete barriers do not have cushions.  If one car was heavier than it could be forced into a reverse speed and the collision would be greater than 60 mph for one car and less for the other.

 

[tadrossi]

32 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Yes, a small fraction.  

I have crashed several times at speeds between 15 mph and 20 mph on my EUC.  I have not been magically slammed to the ground.

While it is not impossible to covert most of your forward energy into spin that you could use to slam yourself to the ground it would be an engineering marvel.  I have never seen a video of a person on a wheel that faceplants hard enough to stop his forward momentum or even slow down the forward momentum more than normally expected. All that forward momentum is be wasted on road rash instead of impact.

  Another example of bad physics.  Two cars have a head on collision. Both cars traveling at 60 mph. “That is like hitting a wall at 120 mph”  No it is not. It is like hitting a concrete barrier at less than 60 mph.  Here is why. The car was going 60 mph and then it made impact resulting  in a speed of 0 mph. That is a 60 mph difference. I said less than 60 mph because parts of each car would be able to occupy the other giving a small cushion. Concrete barriers do not have cushions.  If one car was heavier than it could be forced into a reverse speed and the collision would be greater than 60 mph for one car and less for the other.

 

For what its worth most crashes I have had in my 3 years are at slow speeds from misreading some terrain feature and not giving the wheel the appropriate response. the last on I had was on a bike path the had 2 raised bumps back to back and launched me off the wheel into the air. I landed on my feet running. A face plant is rare, the best safety feature is awareness. IMHO

[Antonio Torralva]

I think someone asked, but I have not seen any answer. Could you tell me clearly the differences between the MsuperX 84V 1600WH and the 100V 1230WH? And what reasons would make me choose one or the other? Thank you very much and congratulations for the thread that I found very interesting.

[Marty Backe]

47 minutes ago, Antonio Torralva said:

I think someone asked, but I have not seen any answer. Could you tell me clearly the differences between the MsuperX 84V 1600WH and the 100V 1230WH? And what reasons would make me choose one or the other? Thank you very much and congratulations for the thread that I found very interesting.

The only reason to buy a 100-volt MSuper X (or Monster) is for higher top-end speed. If all of your riding is below 30-mph (48-km/h), stick with the 84-volt version. I suppose there is another reason to buy a 100-volt wheel; for the bragging rights 

[Electroman]

47 minutes ago, Antonio Torralva said:

I think someone asked, but I have not seen any answer. Could you tell me clearly the differences between the MsuperX 84V 1600WH and the 100V 1230WH? And what reasons would make me choose one or the other? Thank you very much and congratulations for the thread that I found very interesting.

Yes it's been answered but you need to look around, better yet use the search function ( I admit I have trouble with it myself at times, perhaps down to the English used?)

Don't take my word on this, I have not ridden the 100v MSX, I replied what I said earlier but also cannot swear this is so it's only what I seen others say so take it for what it is..

MSX 84v, maybe a slight advantage in terms of torque, low speed? 1600Wh will take you a bit further between the charges.

MSX 100v, a bit higher top speed, 1230Wh so a bit less, exciting technology and 100v is a round and nice figure hehehe.

Ask yourself how fast you need to go, really? I have a problem but I admit I have a problem at least, I go too fast too often and Sunday I accelerated and braked, Wheellog says I hit 59.6km/h for whatever that is worth? I did not even hear the alarm, would be stupid to ride the beep to figure what is the maximum is can do under optimal conditions, even in full gear it would be flat out dumb to push the luck like that + I am 90 something kilos so yeah the 84v is plenty fast.

Whatever fit your need, cannot go wrong with either one I think. Ok some dfon't like Gotway so who know but on the other hand even people who usually do not have liked this one and not hard to see why they do. Maybe monster aside, show me other wheels that could hit that speed in such comfort, heck it's relaxing even but that's also a drawback cause making it even more dangerous for us speed freaks.

 

[Antonio Torralva]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

The only reason to buy a 100-volt MSuper X (or Monster) is for higher top-end speed. If all of your riding is below 30-mph (48-km/h), stick with the 84-volt version. I suppose there is another reason to buy a 100-volt wheel; for the bragging rights 

 

Thank you very much Marty. My desires to brag have long passed, my desire to exceed 45KMh not so much, lol

1 hour ago, Electroman said:

Yes it's been answered but you need to look around, better yet use the search function ( I admit I have trouble with it myself at times, perhaps down to the English used?)

Don't take my word on this, I have not ridden the 100v MSX, I replied what I said earlier but also cannot swear this is so it's only what I seen others say so take it for what it is..

MSX 84v, maybe a slight advantage in terms of torque, low speed? 1600Wh will take you a bit further between the charges.

MSX 100v, a bit higher top speed, 1230Wh so a bit less, exciting technology and 100v is a round and nice figure hehehe.

Ask yourself how fast you need to go, really? I have a problem but I admit I have a problem at least, I go too fast too often and Sunday I accelerated and braked, Wheellog says I hit 59.6km/h for whatever that is worth? I did not even hear the alarm, would be stupid to ride the beep to figure what is the maximum is can do under optimal conditions, even in full gear it would be flat out dumb to push the luck like that + I am 90 something kilos so yeah the 84v is plenty fast.

Whatever fit your need, cannot go wrong with either one I think. Ok some dfon't like Gotway so who know but on the other hand even people who usually do not have liked this one and not hard to see why they do. Maybe monster aside, show me other wheels that could hit that speed in such comfort, heck it's relaxing even but that's also a drawback cause making it even more dangerous for us speed freaks.

 

It is possible that the problems with English are really mine. LOL.
Thank you very much Electroman. I think it's been clear enough, at least for me.

[Electroman]

1 hour ago, Antonio Torralva said:

 

Thank you very much Marty. My desires to brag have long passed, my desire to exceed 45KMh not so much, lol

It is possible that the problems with English are really mine. LOL.
Thank you very much Electroman. I think it's been clear enough, at least for me.

No problem, hope it helps and that you get a correction if needed?

I think 84v is good for most, the speed is very high as is.

Good luck and happy hunting for the best wheel.