MSuper X vs. KS18L: Has Gotway become 'safe enough'?

[Lutalo]

15 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

You guys rang?  I see my name mentioned many times since I’ve been away for a while.  I think I had expectations for the V3s+ that couldn’t be met.  Watched too many videos talk it up and when I got it it was a huge disappointment.  Mainly because I felt it had huge design flaws compared to the other wheels I was riding.  I didn’t understand why it was riding so weird, not at all natural like the other wheels.  

Only reason I’m getting the next MSX is after seeing many of the improvements they have put into the wheel.  I also got a chance to ride it and it didn’t feel weird, except the pedal dip.  But I’m not sure if it is because I’m much more experienced now and even the weird pedal dip doesn’t phase me.  The new MSX wheel doesn’t feel awkward as compared to the old V3s+.  I think if I haven’t ridden anything else and that was the only wheel I’ve experienced, I probably would have like it.  But just like going from airwheel x3 to Ninebot c+ was a good upgrade, the biggest difference came when I went from Ninebot c+ to KS16.  The KS16 just felt natural.  That is the only way I can describe it.  Going from that to the V3s+, I just hated it. 

Inside of the Gw is still amaturish. The side pads are a joke.  Already mentioned pedal dip in turns.  Lack of water proofing.  

Here are the good...  don’t know how they silenced the motor, incredible.  3” tire without the weird gyro feeling of the Z10. Stance is wide, but doesn’t feel weird.  Upgraded wires and mosfets.  Much more safe now than before. 

I like our group meets, gives us a chance to try a wheel before buying.  I really thought the ride would be the same because from the outside the only diff is the thinner side pads.  Don’t know what they changed to make it feel better.  But I liked it enough to buy and try it again.  I was thinking of getting the mcm5, but couldn’t figure out a use for it.  

I think GW has come a long way, thanks to @Marty Backe for breaking them so they can improve them. It would have been bad if they didn’t address the issues, but they seem to have come around a bit.  

Nice. 

[mezzanine]

16 minutes ago, novazeus said:

 

they cost money in dinners, drinks, vacations etc but certainly aren’t hookers. nice girls.

 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I think we're going to see a Z10 killer from Gotway within the next 6-months. Gotway's version will have manly batteries and won't be a wimp when it comes to the mountains of Zeus.

A 16 incher should be next, though. Who needs yet another 18 incher. Hopefully not just a Tesla2 (with limited battery space). Sweet 3 inch wide tire, high pedals, big manly batteries... maybe the ACM X? Entirely new name/design?

Some dealer (or someone pretending to be one) should visit the factory, apparently then they spill all their beans.

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

Inside of the Gw is still amaturish. The side pads are a joke.  Already mentioned pedal dip in turns.  Lack of water proofing.  

As always, recalibrate and make sure the wheel isn't tilted sideways (left-right) and rests firmly against something nonmoving (not your hands). Then it goes away. It's just a lackluster calibration from the factory (before you say anything, that happens to KS and IM wheels as well).

[joku]

@eddiemoy are you going to sell your 18l and replace it with the msx?

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

i was gonna get a matte black one so i’m sure i sent them pictures of that one too. i cancelled the order when people were having to disassemble them to power them down. 

like i said the only one getting raves from my friends is the z10.

i don’t think driving a euc will ever illicit the same response as say driving an audi r8.

they cost money in dinners, drinks, vacations etc but certainly aren’t hookers. nice girls.

Yes, KS has experienced a few growing pains; not too bad though. Their transparency and diligence dealing with these issues was impressive; especially competing against the damage control necessary to quell sales destroying mass panic on an open forum - class act. 

You should consider getting one now that the 1st batch gremlins have been thwarted with the subsequent batches - or at least do a meet-up and ride one (If you haven't already). The face to face quality, and beauty of the wheel speaks for itself. I would be interested to know what you think. 

[Lutalo]

5 minutes ago, joku said:

@eddiemoy are you going to sell your 18l and replace it with the msx?

That is certainly what the GW boys expect. ???

[novazeus]

12 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

Yes, KS has experienced a few growing pains; not too bad though. Their transparency and diligence dealing with these issues was impressive; especially competing against the damage control necessary to quell sales destroying mass panic on an open forum - class act. 

You should consider getting one now that the 1st batch gremlins have been thwarted with the subsequent batches - or at least do a meet-up and ride one (If you haven't already). The face to face quality, and beauty of the wheel speaks for itself. I would be interested to know what you think. 

it was hard to walk away from because i was one of the first with jason to put a deposit down and the price was $1580. i have a 1680wh 18s so the wheel size is the same but i could definitely see how the 18l would be less strain on my hips in slow tight turns. i will say my legs are getting stronger laying the 18s over on one leg or another. for my purposes, which is giving Bob exercise without me bouncing next to him, i think the v10f for pavement and the z10 for pasture are gonna be the wheels i use. Bob will be two october 8 and he’s 125 pounds. probably be 150 in another year. riding with him on a leash presents different challenges. i thought i was going down yesterday because he started out pulling so hard andi was on a s2 and was getting real wobbles, and i’ve never had rider wobbles before. i can see how that would be terrifying, and i was going slow,

be careful riding dc. 

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

it was hard to walk away from because i was one of the first with jason to put a deposit down and the price was $1580. i have a 1680wh 18s so the wheel size is the same but i could definitely see how the 18l would be less strain on my hips in slow tight turns. i will say my legs are getting stronger laying the 18s over on one leg or another. for my purposes, which is giving Bob exercise without me bouncing next to him, i think the v10f for pavement and the z10 for pasture are gonna be the wheels i use. Bob will be two october 8 and he’s 125 pounds. probably be 150 in another year. riding with him on a leash presents different challenges. i thought i was going down yesterday because he started out pulling so hard andi was on a s2 and was getting real wobbles, and i’ve never had rider wobbles before. i can see how that would be terrifying, and i was going slow,

be careful riding dc. 

Thanks dude. DC necessitates it. And I always am.

[mrelwood]

12 hours ago, Electroman said:

free spinning/lifting speed I hit about 71 before cutting out, if this is normal or not I have not checked out just as a reference though, so almost 60 to me sounds like really pushing my luck

On a full battery I got 78km/h free air. It’s not at all for me to say what the safe limits are, but I think on the 18L (50km/h max) the free air was barely above 60. IF this is anything to go by, 60km/h should indeed very doable on the MSX, on full battery.

That said, as long as I have a sane bone in me, I’ll keep below 50.

12 hours ago, Electroman said:

if able to set it to 50 exact and not tilting at all before but wait til 50 exact I would be happy.

The tilt-back on the MSX is very smooth, so setting it to the max (48km/h) will keep you under 51 and you might not even notice it.

[eddiemoy]

5 hours ago, joku said:

@eddiemoy are you going to sell your 18l and replace it with the msx?

Right now, it is replacing my V10F.  That wheel gets no love from me, so it must go.  I use my 18L primarily unless it is a long group ride at which I would go with the 18S since it has a seat.  If I get used to the seat on the MSX, it might replace my 18S.  I still keep my ks16 in the back of my car.   I’ve not found anything to replace that yet.  Nothing beats the ks trolley handle.  The Msuper trolley handle is shit, too small, leverage off, gets stuck, wrong placement.  

[Lutalo]

3 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Right now, it is replacing my V10F.  That wheel gets no love from me, so it must go.  I use my 18L primarily unless it is a long group ride at which I would go with the 18S since it has a seat.  If I get used to the seat on the MSX, it might replace my 18S.  I still keep my ks16 in the back of my car.   I’ve not found anything to replace that yet.  Nothing beats the ks trolley handle.  The Msuper trolley handle is shit, too small, leverage off, gets stuck, wrong placement.  

I will be paying close attention to your reviews on the MSX. I am considering purchasing it. Since I already have the 18L, it is essentially the only other 18" wheel to consider at the moment - the 9B is not at all on my radar.

However, I did hear that KS will soon be taking orders for the KS18XL (1554wh). If so, all bets are off for me with the MSX; there will be enough swap units around on group rides to get an informed feel for its dynamics.

[Lutalo]

10 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

It's just a lackluster calibration from the factory (before you say anything, that happens to KS and IM wheels as well).

In business it's all about the frequency of occurrence though ?

[eddiemoy]

43 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

I will be paying close attention to your reviews on the MSX. I am considering purchasing it. Since I already have the 18L, it is essentially the only other 18" wheel to consider at the moment - the 9B is not at all on my radar.

However, I did hear that KS will soon be taking orders for the KS18XL (1554wh). If so, all bets are off for me with the MSX; there will be enough swap units around on group rides to get an informed feel for its dynamics.

I didn’t like the Z10.  It is too different and the gyro effect I feel that can get you in trouble if you forget you are riding the Z10 if you have multiple wheels.  I experience that effect on the V10F which almost threw me off the wheel.  The effect is similar to being thrown off a motorcycle over the handlebars.  It is called highside crash.  Scary feeling.  

I like th MSX, I’ll see if mine has the dip on turn issue.  Will try to calibrate it.  I don’t remember having that issue in the V3s+ I had, but their peddle heights are different. When I spoke to Chris about it, he mention it is a common issue.  Will see when I get mine next week.  I really like the 18L.  I feel it is designed correctly.  I just wish it had a seat and 10lbs lighter.  Then it would be the perfect wheel for me to take everywhere I go.  

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

I didn’t like the Z10.  It is too different and the gyro effect I feel that can get you in trouble if you forget you are riding the Z10 if you have multiple wheels.  I experience that effect on the V10F which almost threw me off the wheel.  The effect is similar to being thrown off a motorcycle over the handlebars.  It is called highside crash.  Scary feeling.  

I like th MSX, I’ll see if mine has the dip on turn issue.  Will try to calibrate it.  I don’t remember having that issue in the V3s+ I had, but their peddle heights are different. When I spoke to Chris about it, he mention it is a common issue.  Will see when I get mine next week.  I really like the 18L.  I feel it is designed correctly.  I just wish it had a seat and 10lbs lighter.  Then it would be the perfect wheel for me to take everywhere I go.  

I am big guy so the 18L's weight doesn't feel that substantial to me on my commutes throughout DC; but then, unlike you , owning wheels of all sizes,  I ride 18" wheels all the time and have always ridden them. Although I have experimented with 16" wheels, 18" wheels just feel normal to me - a more natural fit.  I have never even physically touched a 14" wheel - Bah! mere toys for children the lot of them ?. I love the trolley on the 18L, especially on the subway where I have never had occasion to have to lift or tote the wheel. That is fantastic since DC's Subway system has several of the world's longest escalators. 

I feel that my 18AY wheels definitely had the seating feature on lock. I wish they had more power. To correct that I am planning to convert one of them to an 18S, since it needs a replacement motor and control board anyway.

Will still temporarily have the 630wh battery so the range is going to suck compared to what I get with the 18L - I will eventually upgrade to 1360wh.

I feel that the 9B is more of a country boy wheel - good for trails and such. Doesn't seem as well suited for city riding as other wheels and to me is reminiscent of something Conan the Barbarian would use to kill people. I find the videos of people riding 9Bs through heavily populated urban environments unconvincing - they look more natural - attractive even, in the environments I have seen @Marty Backe riding them. 

I love the way that I can slice through the streets of DC with my 18L like I am riding a knife - it's just a beautiful and well designed package. 

It's sleek design makes it more at home and more anonymous on the subway and in commercial buildings. I imagine the obtrusive, jarring design of the 9B might draw the unwanted attention of  authority figures in similar situations.

The V10F is a 16" wheel, so I never had any intention. Wasn't on my radar at all. 

Like you, I like the MSX, but whether or not "like" leads to transaction, depends upon what else becomes available between now and then. @Marty Backementioned the possibility of a Gotway 9B killer, and KS has the 18XL on the horizon. Since, I currently have no interest in the 9B, a 9B killer won't really matter to me either. So, that leaves the upcoming KS18XL or the MSX as my main targets.

[Michael Tucker]

On 9/11/2018 at 5:38 AM, RockyTop said:

  Look, fast and powerful is not for everyone.  I grew up driving race cars and powerful sports bikes. I understand that some people like slow and peaceful and think that is great. I really think that we are taking about different things here. You can’t compare Grandma’s Volvo to a Drag car. 

  All the times in my life when I actually got hurt I was taking it easy and acting like a sane person.      

 

Ha! All the times I've injured myself I was being an idiot!!! 

Perhaps we are discussing two different aspects of quality and safety. My Kingsong 18L will give me a nasty jolt backwards and an embarrassing loud beep if I accelerate too fast near the top end, but does so in an attempt to reserve enough power for something else unexpected. That sharp tilt back can definitely throw a rider not ready for it. I don't like this feature, but it has saved me from cut-off several times. Its a safety feature that could be considered unsafe!

Conversely, my Gotway Mten3 gives the mildest of tiltbacks and a quiet beep barely audible with a full-face helmet and wind-rush. As an experienced rider I must be monitoring my GPS and sense of wind and incline to know if I'm pushing the wheel too hard. A person can view the Gotway approach as requiring too much rider attention and be considered unsafe too!

I love these wheels, differences and all. Different wheels, and brands require different styles of riding. All wheels are dangerous and require lots of trust, but all modes of transportation are dangerous. Use pads and helmet and respect other peoples safety and property! 

[RockyTop]

3 hours ago, Tom Skanks said:

Ha! All the times I've injured myself I was being an idiot!!! 

People are different.  When I am doing something I know is dangerous my adrenaline is readability available and then when something does go wrong time slows down drastically.

Real life example: ( I knew that I just lost control. It seems like I have 5 seconds to try to get it back. Giving (dropping falling) at the knees and putting pressure on the toes does a good job of getting the wheel back infront of me I am just trying to negotiate the damage. So far so good. Then sit down behind the wheel and slam on the brakes for a lower speed landing on my back...... damn!  ...Just got good feed back!!!  I am back in control!   Dropped speed from 30 mph to 22 mph)   Under normal circumstances I would have been on the ground before I knew anything just went wrong.

3 hours ago, Tom Skanks said:

 

Perhaps we are discussing two different aspects of quality and safety. My Kingsong 18L will give me a nasty jolt backwards and an embarrassing loud beep if I accelerate too fast near the top end, but does so in an attempt to reserve enough power for something else unexpected. That sharp tilt back can definitely throw a rider not ready for it. I don't like this feature, but it has saved me from cut-off several times. Its a safety feature that could be considered unsafe!

Conversely, my Gotway Mten3 gives the mildest of tiltbacks and a quiet beep barely audible with a full-face helmet and wind-rush. As an experienced rider I must be monitoring my GPS and sense of wind and incline to know if I'm pushing the wheel too hard. A person can view the Gotway approach as requiring too much rider attention and be considered unsafe too!

 

I would prefer a gentle GotWay tilt at 45 km/h and a ear piercing alarm at 48 km/h. 

[Lutalo]

18 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

my adrenaline is readability available and then when something does go wrong time slows down drastically.

True, but your physical ability to react to hazards is diminished. So it's trade-off. I recall the first occasion that I took my Suzuki Hyabusa to its 200+ mph top speed; If you think 200 mph in a car is whiteknuckle, try it on a motorcycle. Tucked on my Busa at 200 mph I can remember the temporary panic I had to swallow the moment I realized that I was helpless if something happened while traveling at that velocity. I had the feeling of being grateful that if some catastrophe happened at that velocity, at least I wouldn't feel it. I think that I had this odd feeling because I knew that although I was hyperalert, I was also severely incapacitated at such velocities. The adrenaline is the result of the mind knowing that it's in a situation that presents grave danger. The more potentially grave the danger, the higher the adrenaline alert. 

[Lutalo]

50 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

People are different.  When I am doing something I know is dangerous my adrenaline is readability available and then when something does go wrong time slows down drastically.

Real life example: ( I knew that I just lost control. It seems like I have 5 seconds to try to get it back. Giving (dropping falling) at the knees and putting pressure on the toes does a good job of getting the wheel back infront of me I am just trying to negotiate the damage. So far so good. Then sit down behind the wheel and slam on the brakes for a lower speed landing on my back...... damn!  ...Just got good feed back!!!  I am back in control!   Dropped speed from 30 to 18 .)   Under normal circumstances I would have been on the ground before I knew anything just went wrong.

I would prefer a gentle GotWay tilt at 45 km/h and a ear piercing alarm at 48 km/h. 

"I would prefer a gentle GotWay tilt at 45 km/h and a ear piercing alarm at 48 km/h."

I don't know about this one dude. I have to roll with @Tom Skanks on this point. I ride in a very noisy environment, so I have come to appreciate the alarm. 

[RockyTop]

51 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

"I would prefer a gentle GotWay tilt at 45 km/h and a ear piercing alarm at 48 km/h."

I don't know about this one dude. I have to roll with @Tom Skanks on this point. I ride in a very noisy environment, so I have come to appreciate the alarm. 

Me too that’s why I said AND.  But I would like the gentle tilt first then the very very loud alarm. 

Honda CBR:

Have you ever got up to 200 +\- mph and stared to “tail wag” after letting off.  It did not stop wagging until I got back below 70 mph. At 200 mph I pictured myself as hundreds of meatballs  rolling to a stop a mile away.  

Tail Wag- ( After braking at that speed you tend to lose stability. The wind favors one side shifting you to the other . Now the other side is getting more wind and shifts you back and on it goes.) A good test of this is to push a car 100 feet with the steering locked. Mark the final location and push it back. Apply 5 pounds of side force to the rear quarter panel while pushing the car forward again. This time the car will veer 2 feet off Course. At 200 mph the 100 feet takes Less  than half a second to travel and the 5 pounds of force is just a 0.5 second gust of wind.)

 

Just thinking about it makes me feel so much safer on an EUC!!

[Lutalo]

24 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Me too that’s why I said AND.  But I would like the gentle tilt first then the very very loud alarm. 

Honda CBR:

Have you ever got up to 210 mph and stared to “tail wag” after letting off.  It did not stop wagging until I got back below 70 mph. At 210 mph I pictured myself as hundreds of meatballs  rolling to a stop a mile away.  

Tail Wag- ( After braking at that speed you tend to lose stability. The wind favors one side shifting you to the other . Now the other side is getting more wind and shifts you back and on it goes.) A good test of this is to push a car 100 feet with the steering locked. Mark the final location and push it back. Apply 5 pounds of side force to the rear quarter panel while pushing the car forward again. This time the car will veer 2 feet off Course. At 200 mph the 100 feet takes Less  than half a second to travel and the 5 pounds of force is just a 0.5 second gust of wind.)

 

Just thinking about it makes me feel so much safer on an EUC!!

Seems to me like you just needed more negative camber on those rear wheels to overcome the effect of the wind with improved traction from an increased contact patch. 

Now the Bike: are you talking about the CBR1000RR? I didn't even know that they were capable of 200+ - at least not from the factory. I had the Honda CBR1000RR and the BMW S1000RR good for about 185-186 mph. What mods did you do to get yours to go 210? A 1000cc bike hitting 200+; sweet. 

[RockyTop]

14 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

Seems to me like you just needed more negative camber on those rear wheels to overcome the effect of the wind with improved traction from an increased contact patch.

No, ??? What I really needed was to go back to normal sports bikes and leave the 200 mph+ to cars with roll cages.  Or even better 70 mph on a 1/4 mile oval dirt track.  Now that is fun!! 

18 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

Now the Bike: are you talking about the CBR1000RR? I didn't even know that they were capable of 200+ - at least not from the factory. I had the Honda CBR1000RR and the BMW S1000RR good for about 185-186 mph. What mods did you do to get yours to go 210? A 1000cc bike hitting 200+; sweet. 

My aucle raced the CBR  in New Hampshire. After he passed away from  a heart attack  I ended up with the bike and thought I would try my luck.  I made a few runs with his guys and ended up selling it a week later to one of his friends.  I am not sure what MODs were made but definitely not street or stock.

What finally got me was watching other people and thinking they were crazy and realizing that was me just 10 minutes ago.  

My uncle raced bikes for almost 20 years and ended up dying on a golf cart in the pits. 

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, RockyTop said:

No, ??? What I really needed was to go back to normal sports bikes and leave the 200 mph+ to cars with roll cages.  Or even better 70 mph on a 1/4 mile oval dirt track.  Now that is fun!! 

Agreed. 

2 hours ago, RockyTop said:

My aucle raced the CBR  in New Hampshire. After he passed away from  a heart attack  I ended up with the bike and thought I would try my luck.  I made a few runs with his guys and ended up selling it a week later to one of his friends.  I am not sure what MODs were made but definitely not street or stock.

What finally got me was watching other people and thinking they were crazy and realizing that was me just 10 minutes ago.  

My uncle raced bikes for almost 20 years and ended up dying on a golf cart in the pits

Yeah. Couldn't have been stock. However you get there 200 mph on a bike is an unparalleled thrill. 

It is not how you go that matters,  it's how you live. Your uncle raced bikes: now that is what I call living 

[EZhel]

The current statistics on MSuperX in Russia is relatively small, but good. Owners generally don't have issues with MSX yet, some have 2000+ km already.

I love my MSX, comfortable, very fast, very powerful, no issues yet. In comparison, KS18L freezes sometimes in supermarkets and malls, reboots itself with firmware v1.11, still has issues with trolley handle and headlight.

People say that MSX has an issue that dirt and water may get inside through the bolts that hold the axle, and through the power button, so ppl use tape to cover the button.

p.s. both 18L and MSX dip forward in sharp turns, but level back after couple of seconds, no big deal. KingSong prepares the 1600Wh KS18XL this autumn with the same body, that'll be a direct competitor to MSX.

[EZhel]

On 9/12/2018 at 4:38 AM, Lutalo said:

3” tire without the weird gyro feeling of the Z10.

Actually, MSX straightens back vertically quite hard, too, you can feel it even after riding 18L or any lighter wheel. The difference between Z10 and MSX is, the Z has batteries around axle, in the center of the wheel, while MSX has huge batteries on top that actually help to lean it inside turns. The 3" tire profile also helps in turns, the result works really well for MSX, it's nimble in dense crowd and in forest trails, and turns well at high speed, while also having good stability at all speeds. That's a fantastic balance of contradictionary parameters, one of the reasons I enjoy every ride on MSX.

[Lutalo]

4 hours ago, EZhel said:

while MSX has huge batteries on top that actually help to lean it inside turns. 

I like the MSX, but nimble doesn't come to mind when I think of it. I do feel that the 18L is nimble for an 18" wheel.The top heavy feel of the MSX described by so many may have been improved/offset some by the taller and wider 3" tire.

Don't know if you have ever tried the 18L, but you should if you haven't. It is an almost perfectly designed package. 

The FW upgrades to improve the trolley lockup on some of the first batch wheels was unfortunate, but this often happens when new, more advanced features are introduced to please consumers. For example; Mercedes Benz cars no longer enjoys the reputation for reliability they once had precisely because their vehicles have become more electronically complex.

The same thing will happen with wheels the simpler wheels will be more reliable because they haven't added more stuff to go awry.

The trade-off will be that the more complex wheels with their cooler convenience and safety features will be more desirable to most; just the normal progression of how technology and demand combine to impact product development.