edwin_rm Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Here an image of my Monster, with factory QC date of 12 May 2017. Does anything look off? (I have had no problem riding, but it has been riden only 9km as of this message's date) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, edwin_rm said: Here an image of my Monster, with factory QC date of 12 May 2017. Does anything look off? (I have had no problem riding, but it has been riden only 9km as of this message's date) I don't have the Monster memorized so I can't say. Are you posting it on this thread because you're concerned about the oscillation/cut-out problems? If so, no Monsters have been cited as having this problem, and Gotway has only put out alerts regarding the ACM and MSuper. I would imagine that you're fine. And to be clear, even if it had the problem, the failure mechanism is in the firmware so there's nothing to see. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin_rm Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I don't have the Monster memorized so I can't say. Are you posting it on this thread because you're concerned about the oscillation/cut-out problems? If so, no Monsters have been cited as having this problem, and Gotway has only put out alerts regarding the ACM and MSuper. I would imagine that you're fine. And to be clear, even if it had the problem, the failure mechanism is in the firmware so there's nothing to see. Just making sure every piece is where it is suppossed to be. And yeah, these recent Gotway happenings have cause quite the panic amongst the euc community, so therefore, I express my paranoia by uploading that photo. ? Edited June 27, 2017 by edwin_rm grammar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post esaj Posted June 27, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I don't have the Monster memorized so I can't say. Are you posting it on this thread because you're concerned about the oscillation/cut-out problems? If so, no Monsters have been cited as having this problem, and Gotway has only put out alerts regarding the ACM and MSuper. I would imagine that you're fine. And to be clear, even if it had the problem, the failure mechanism is in the firmware so there's nothing to see. Well, one thing's for sure after seeing that picture: Monster, ACM and MSuper all share the same board (maybe with some slight component changes, but otherwise that's exactly the same board as Rehab1's dead ACM board he sent me). So probably also the firmware code base is the same, which could potentially mean that NEW (post end-of-April) Monsters could also be affected. I'm still leaving the "maybe Monster" in the topic name... EDIT: I was under the impression that Gotway was using TO-247's in Monsters, but those are the same TO-220's as in the ACM. I also bet that those are the exact same IRFB4110's as in ACMs and MSupers. So looks like KingSong (KS16S, IRFP4368) and Rockwheel GT16 (IRFP4110, TO-247 -version of the Gotway mosfets) are the only ones using heavy-duty mosfets..? Not that heavier gauge mosfets would help with melting wires and firmware bugs... Edited June 27, 2017 by esaj 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, esaj said: Well, one thing's for sure after seeing that picture: Monster, ACM and MSuper all share the same board (maybe with some slight component changes, but otherwise that's exactly the same board as Rehab1's dead ACM board he sent me). So probably also the firmware code base is the same, which could potentially mean that NEW (post end-of-April) Monsters could also be affected. I'm still leaving the "maybe Monster" in the topic name... EDIT: I was under the impression that Gotway was using TO-247's in Monsters, but those are the same TO-220's as in the ACM. So looks like KingSong (KS16S) and Rockwheel GT16 are the only ones using heavy-duty mosfets. I also bet that those are the exact same IRFB4110's as in ACMs and MSupers. Unfortunately you may be correct In this active thread @Demian B reports that his Monster has the MSuper board (if you believe the sticker): What a mess Edited June 27, 2017 by Marty Backe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 18 minutes ago, edwin_rm said: Just making sure every piece is where it is suppossed to be. And yeah, these recent Gotway happenings have cause quite the panic amongst the euc community, so therefore, I express my paranoia by uploading that photo. ? On the positive side, your board is stamped March. If that represents when the firmware was installed then you would be good. However, we really don't understand how Gotway is configuration managed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post esaj Posted June 27, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Unfortunately you may be correct In this active thread @Demian B reports that his Monster has the MSuper board (if you believe the sticker): Ah, I read it through earlier, but missed that detail. I can see the cost-benefit point of making only a single board instead of two or three different ones, and like has been stated before, we aren't seeing boards blowing up left and right, so it's probably not that big of an issue. But it does have it's problems, like a tired worker doing an 12-hour shift or whatever, and mistakenly placing the wrong board on a wheel, as they all look the same... although I'd expect they at the very least try that the wheel turns on and balances before shipping it off Likely it's the exact same board on every wheel, and the firmware's the same, only certain parameters are changed to match the motor inductances and other parameters. One of those parameters could be the current limit (if that's what is actually causing the bug), so it might be correct in Monsters and wrong in ACMs/MSupers. Edited June 27, 2017 by esaj 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, esaj said: Well, one thing's for sure after seeing that picture: Monster, ACM and MSuper all share the same board (maybe with some slight component changes, but otherwise that's exactly the same board as Rehab1's dead ACM board he sent me). So probably also the firmware code base is the same, which could potentially mean that NEW (post end-of-April) Monsters could also be affected. I'm still leaving the "maybe Monster" in the topic name... EDIT: I was under the impression that Gotway was using TO-247's in Monsters, but those are the same TO-220's as in the ACM. I also bet that those are the exact same IRFB4110's as in ACMs and MSupers. So looks like KingSong (KS16S, IRFP4368) and Rockwheel GT16 (IRFP4110, TO-247 -version of the Gotway mosfets) are the only ones using heavy-duty mosfets..? Not that heavier gauge mosfets would help with melting wires and firmware bugs... I want to add that I'm dubious that the firmware is the same. Wouldn't the wheel diameter require changes if nothing else but for the speed calibration. Also, the Monster has fans which turn on at 43 degrees. But when @Rehab1 tested his "fan port" on the ACM board it did not activate. This leads me to believe that they use the same hardware but flash different firmware based on the wheel. Edited June 27, 2017 by Marty Backe 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, esaj said: Ah, I read it through earlier, but missed that detail. I can see the cost-benefit point of making only a single board instead of two or three different ones, and like has been stated before, we aren't seeing boards blowing up left and right, so it's probably not that big of an issue. But it does have it's problems, like a tired worker doing an 12-hour shift or whatever, and mistakenly placing the wrong board on a wheel, as they all look the same... although I'd expect they at the very least try that the wheel turns on and balances before shipping it off Likely it's the exact same board on every wheel, and the firmware's the same, only certain parameters are changed to match the motor inductances and other parameters. One of those parameters could be the current limit (if that's what is actually causing the bug), so it might be correct in Monsters and wrong in ACMs/MSupers. Wouldn't it be sooo nice if someone from Gotway could drop in here and answer these basic questions without giving away any trade secrets? We can dream... Edited June 27, 2017 by Marty Backe 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I want to add that I'm dubious that the firmware is the same. Wouldn't the wheel diameter require changes if nothing else but for the speed calibration. Also, the Monster has fans which turn on at 43 degrees. But when @Rehab1 tested his "fan port" on the ACM board it did not activate. Them leads me to believe that they use the same hardware but flash different firmware based on the wheel. Well, you probably saw my earlier post already, but what I mean by "same code base" is that the basic code driving the wheel functions is the same, but they have different builds of the same firmware where certain parameters of the firmware are changed to match each different wheel (ACM, MSuper, Monster, might be also different for 67V vs. 84V). Call it "configuration"? 7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Wouldn't it be sooo nice if someone from Gotway could drop in here and these basic questions without giving away any trade secrets? We can dream... Yeah, one can dream... Someone actually posted a shop selling Firewheel-boards (or clones of them, although apparently Firewheel board is a clone of SBU ), and the shop also mentioned that they have the firmware source code available. Didn't contact them myself (at least yet, I've got my hands full right now with all my own stuff already ), but might try in the future. It's no Gotway/KS/Inmotion/whatever-big-name firmware, but it would be interesting to see a more "professional" firmware without having to just guess how they're made. Of course it could also be that the big-names use totally different algorithms for driving the motor and calculating the balancing loop. Edited June 27, 2017 by esaj 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxLinux Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 On 6/24/2017 at 1:20 PM, Pingouin said: Gotway doesn't get better, in 2015 the first 680Wh MCM2 was a revolution, and there weren't any major issues, MSuper 2 is another great option. It's cheaper than MSuper 3 and avoids the MSuper 3 problems. I've had mine for a month so far with zero problems and huge amounts of enjoyment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxLinux Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 On 6/25/2017 at 3:27 AM, em1barns said: given that cutoffs described happened within 2 miles of usage, how the heck is Gotway testing their changes? Are they even testing it at all? Do they only use a bench? Testing should include several thousand miles usage in real and varied conditions. This has been a glaring shortcoming of Gotway for a long time. It's hard to believe this company operates with such minimal testing, but that's what the evidence seems to show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tomek Posted June 27, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 27, 2017 9 hours ago, esaj said: Well, you probably saw my earlier post already, but what I mean by "same code base" is that the basic code driving the wheel functions is the same, but they have different builds of the same firmware where certain parameters of the firmware are changed to match each different wheel (ACM, MSuper, Monster, might be also different for 67V vs. 84V). Call it "configuration"? looks to me like some gotway engineer was tweaking the PID parameters to solve some (marginal) issue, solved it, but by accident introduced another (much more grave) issue causing oscillations. perhaps they only tested it with featherweight riders? I'm also sure GW downplaying the bug and not communicating about it is their tactic to avoid costs of recalling hundreds of units and minimise reputation loss, albeit IMO it has the opposite effect. 9 hours ago, esaj said: Yeah, one can dream... Someone actually posted a shop selling Firewheel-boards (or clones of them, although apparently Firewheel board is a clone of SBU ), and the shop also mentioned that they have the firmware source code available. Didn't contact them myself (at least yet, I've got my hands full right now with all my own stuff already ), but might try in the future. It's no Gotway/KS/Inmotion/whatever-big-name firmware, but it would be interesting to see a more "professional" firmware without having to just guess how they're made. Of course it could also be that the big-names use totally different algorithms for driving the motor and calculating the balancing loop. Give @lizardmech and @electric_vehicle_lover few more months and (if things move at the current pace) there will be two awesome open source alternatives .') 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post WaveCut Posted June 27, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) Biggest russian EUC dealer (which you may remember by funny translated to english but good quality EUC reviews - @EcoDrift) announces recall campaign on most ACM, ACMs+, Msuper v3s+ sold since 29 of April 2017. Dates of production starts from 20 April 2017. EcoDrift will return devices after replacement boards will be installed. Here you can see no connection between motor sn/s and production dates, as we assumed earlier. Date of shipment Production date Model Color Battery Motor code 4/29/17 170427026 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306273 4/29/17 170427025 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306266 4/29/17 170421009 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170213160 4/29/17 170421012 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ161022188 4/29/17 170427022 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306121 4/29/17 170427023 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306176 4/29/17 170420026 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170213141 4/29/17 170427021 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306170 4/29/17 170427024 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306270 4/29/17 170420027 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170213122 4/29/17 170427027 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306312 4/29/17 170421011 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ161022097 4/29/17 170421010 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ161022164 4/29/17 170427017 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306222 4/29/17 170427015 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306286 4/29/17 170427014 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306281 4/29/17 170427013 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306303 4/29/17 170427011 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306309 4/29/17 170427009 ACMs+ B 1300 170405917HB 4/29/17 170427008 ACMs+ B 1300 170405918HB 4/29/17 170427005 ACMs+ B 1300 170405939HB 4/29/17 170427006 ACMs+ B 1300 170405907HB 4/29/17 170427007 ACMs+ B 1300 170405926HB 4/29/17 170427001 ACM B 820 170405895HB 4/29/17 170427002 ACM B 820 170405988HB 4/29/17 170427003 ACM B 820 170405900HB 4/29/17 170427004 ACM B 820 170405979HB 5/5/17 170427012 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306316 5/5/17 170427010 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306261 5/5/17 170427016 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306319 5/5/17 170427018 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306174 5/5/17 170427019 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306189 5/5/17 170505004 Msuper3 B 0 QJ170419386 5/11/17 170510042 ACMs+ B 1600 170500123HB 5/15/17 170512025 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170419428 5/15/17 170512027 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170419421 5/15/17 170512026 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170419472 5/15/17 170512023 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170306279 5/15/17 170512024 Msuper3s+ B 1600 QJ170419479 5/15/17 170513016 Msuper3s+ Blue 1600 QJ170419438 5/15/17 170513022 Msuper3s+ Blue 1600 QJ170419388 5/15/17 170513020 Msuper3s+ Blue 1600 QJ170306280 5/15/17 170513021 Msuper3s+ Blue 1600 QJ170419409 5/15/17 170513018 Msuper3s+ Blue 1600 QJ161022158 5/15/17 170513017 Msuper3s+ Blue 1600 QJ170419414 5/15/17 170513013 Msuper3s+ Blue 1600 QJ161022136 5/15/17 170513019 Msuper3s+ Blue 1600 QJ170419430 5/15/17 170513015 Msuper3s+ Blue 1600 QJ170419445 5/15/17 170513014 Msuper3s+ Blue 1600 QJ170419440 Edited June 27, 2017 by WaveCut 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 40 minutes ago, WaveCut said: Dates of production starts from 20 April 2017. Do we know that wheels from before this date are good (because the firmware update didn't exist yet then)? Do you have more information on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaveCut Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Do we know that wheels from before this date are good (because the firmware update didn't exist yet then)? Do you have more information on this? I'll try to find out details of campaign and will update this thread then. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Thank you! I'm trying to get a "you're safe before this date" kind of information to narrow down which wheels are maybe affected and which are definitely not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 6 hours ago, WaveCut said: I'll try to find out details of campaign and will update this thread then. @WaveCut if you can forward, tell gotway to figure out how to identify good and bad firmware. And then gotway somehow should be able to notify all the registered wheels via their app. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jason McNeil Posted June 28, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Gotway sent us this 'Downloader' tool yesterday. The accompanying instructions are essentially: Disconnect power & discharge the capacitors Remove the BT module & connect the 'Downloader' to this interface Choose the board's configuration ACM/MSuper/Monster, voltage & resistors—there are two types, a R001 & 0m50, this latter is the new board type & uses v9 of the firmware, R001 loads v8. After the firmware is loaded, the Wheels needs to be calibrated & that's it! I've got about 40 of these that need this operation. Catching an early morning flight tomorrow morning to get this started on this project. Predicting I'll be quite the Expert by the time I reach the 40th Wheel... Thanks Gotway Edited June 28, 2017 by Jason McNeil 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jason McNeil Posted June 28, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 28, 2017 Chatting with @Vincent Bourdeau about the impact in France, seems that the French GW Distributor already had the Downloader tool, so the situation there was mostly contained. Obviously it's an embarrassing episode for GW, but the worst of it was the lack of transparency & openness during the debacle. The information was bound to come out, why not be frank about it? When it comes to bad news about faults/defects, there's a general tendency towards wishful thinking, even when the evidence is so palpable that it smacks you in the face. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Yea they really thought they could replace boards of people when they crash and that's it... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marty Backe Posted June 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said: Gotway sent us this 'Downloader' tool yesterday. The accompanying instructions are essentially: Disconnect power & discharge the capacitors Remove the BT module & connect the 'Downloader' to this interface Choose the board's configuration ACM/MSuper/Monster, voltage & resistors—there are two types, a R001 & 0m50, this latter is the new board type & uses v9 of the firmware, R001 loads v8. After the firmware is loaded, the Wheels needs to be calibrated & that's it! I've got about 40 of these that need this operation. Catching an early morning flight tomorrow morning to get this started on this project. Predicting I'll be quite the Expert by the time I reach the 40th Wheel... Thanks Gotway Wow, what a pain. It was bad enough that you have to open each wheel, but to remove the Bluetooth module too? With all the silicon (or whatever that gunk is) applied across the module to hold it in place that's going to be a very time consuming operation. I really feel for you Jason. I have my new armored wrist guards arriving in the next day so I'll be able to test my 'new' wheel with more confidence after you fix it 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 I'll help you!! @Jason McNeil, so i can be semi expert for free!? was there a hidden gotway programming that can up the performance? Maybe enough to conquer the park in chino hills? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: Wow, what a pain. I have my new armored wrist guards arriving in the next day so I'll be able to test my 'new' wheel with more confidence after you fix it Piece of cake, we'll have the process down to 5 min a Wheel 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marty Backe Posted June 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 29, 2017 1 minute ago, Jason McNeil said: Piece of cake, we'll have the process down to 5 min a Wheel I'm bringing my stopwatch... Hey, on a totally unrelated note, I bumped into two new riders today, in the 'wild'. I was riding on the beach trail near Hermosa Beach with my KS14C and I came across a young couple wheeling on the trail. They were pretty new to everything. Brian and Kim were their names. We talked for awhile and hopefully they will join the forum (knew nothing about it) and some of our local group rides. She was riding one of the two wheeled Inmotion wheels that they bought from you (I gave them your card, when I discovered they already knew you). See, it's spreading more and more 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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