Oscillation and cut out problem with Gotway MSuper V3, ACM, maybe Monster shipped from May 2017 onwards

[MaxLinux]

On 6/19/2017 at 10:49 AM, KingSong69 said:

Sorry, if this sounds a bit sarcastic, but comeone: Doing such a Firmware tweak-saying nothing?, and while testing nobody drives over a bump??? Was there even a testing done?

It's hard to believe the degree of carelessness in Gotway's procedures. Maybe this latest round of problems will cause them to finally make some overdue changes.

[Dingfelder]

5 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Gotway sent us this 'Downloader' tool yesterday. The accompanying instructions are essentially:

1. Disconnect power & discharge the capacitors
2. Remove the BT module & connect the 'Downloader' to this interface
3. Choose the board's configuration ACM/MSuper/Monster, voltage & resistors—there are two types, a R001 & 0m50, this latter is the new board type & uses v9 of the firmware, R001 loads v8.
4. After the firmware is loaded, the Wheels needs to be calibrated & that's it!

I've got about 40 of these that need this operation. Catching an early morning flight tomorrow morning to get this started on this project. Predicting I'll be quite the Expert by the time I reach the 40th Wheel... Thanks Gotway 

 

 

So Jason, what remains of the problem that the failed update was originally intended to address?

And what's going to happen if it comes up?  

Since it looks like we still can't just update through an app, are we going to be going through this whole recall business a second time?

Is Gotway ready to stand behind the wheel from this point forward?

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

 

So Jason, what remains of the problem that the failed update was originally intended to address?

And what's going to happen if it comes up?  

Since it looks like we still can't just update through an app, are we going to be going through this whole recall business a second time?

Is Gotway ready to stand behind the wheel from this point forward?

My understanding from reading the previous threads is that Gotway was tweaking the firmware in an effort to reduce excessive current draw that could result in melted cabling. That problem has been there for a couple of years, and it's only a problem if you push the wheel extremely hard (steep hills) for extended periods of time.

I'm sure they realize now that no firmware change is going to help, and eventually they'll have to go with better cabling and maybe updated wheel axles.

So although melting cables is a problem it doesn't have the urgency or bad consequences of a firmware bug.

I really don't think you'll have anything to worry about (famous last words) 

Surely you know by now that Gotway is an information black hole. I think the only assurances you can expect is that your dealer will stand behind the wheel.

FWIW, after Jason flashes my wheel (hopefully Saturday?) I am going to armor up and repeat the scenario that threw me off a week in a half ago. Hopefully that will help to regain everyone's confidence (including mine) in their fix. I'm going to drink a couple of beers first to mentally prepare for this 

[SeattleAbarth]

Sooo.  You plan to get a little air and land on an incline slope.   Don't drink bruh...  just get one of those sumo air suits.

[em1barns]

6 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Gotway sent us this 'Downloader' tool yesterday. The accompanying instructions are essentially:

1. Disconnect power & discharge the capacitors
2. Remove the BT module & connect the 'Downloader' to this interface
3. Choose the board's configuration ACM/MSuper/Monster, voltage & resistors—there are two types, a R001 & 0m50, this latter is the new board type & uses v9 of the firmware, R001 loads v8.
4. After the firmware is loaded, the Wheels needs to be calibrated & that's it!

I've got about 40 of these that need this operation. Catching an early morning flight tomorrow morning to get this started on this project. Predicting I'll be quite the Expert by the time I reach the 40th Wheel... Thanks Gotway 

 

 

 

 

Would you know whether the 2 board types you describe both have a very hard mode now, or is it just the latest one? 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

FWIW, after Jason flashes my wheel (hopefully Saturday?) I am going to armor up and repeat the scenario that threw me off a week in a half ago. Hopefully that will help to regain everyone's confidence (including mine) in their fix. I'm going to drink a couple of beers first to mentally prepare for this 

Remember... Cameras from every angle! 

Edited June 29, 2017 by The Fat Unicyclist

[Rehab1]

7 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Piece of cake, we'll have the process down to 5 min a Wheel  

I hear Johnny Depp Edward Scissorhands is available to help. 

 

[Dingfelder]

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

My understanding from reading the previous threads is that Gotway was tweaking the firmware in an effort to reduce excessive current draw that could result in melted cabling. That problem has been there for a couple of years, and it's only a problem if you push the wheel extremely hard (steep hills) for extended periods of time.

I'm sure they realize now that no firmware change is going to help, and eventually they'll have to go with better cabling and maybe updated wheel axles.

So although melting cables is a problem it doesn't have the urgency or bad consequences of a firmware bug.

I really don't think you'll have anything to worry about (famous last words) 

Surely you know by now that Gotway is an information black hole. I think the only assurances you can expect is that your dealer will stand behind the wheel.

FWIW, after Jason flashes my wheel (hopefully Saturday?) I am going to armor up and repeat the scenario that threw me off a week in a half ago. Hopefully that will help to regain everyone's confidence (including mine) in their fix. I'm going to drink a couple of beers first to mentally prepare for this 

My understanding was that they were just rolling back the firmware to an earlier version, that firmware being one the engineers already deemed inadequate to cope with the demands that the extra power of this new generation of MSuper would place upon it.  Doing so would not be solving a problem, but substituting one problem for another.

Steep hills are exactly my concern, and one of the main reasons I decided to choose only from among the most powerful (and priciest) wheels on the market, and this wheel in particular.  I will ride on steep hills literally every single day if I ride the wheel at all.  If the wheel is no longer fit for the use I bought it for, I want to see that communicated in plain language without delay.

I do think Gotway should extend the warranty on this generation of the MSuper.  And do everything conceivable to make sure that if related problems crop up with this affected generation of MSuper V3's, it won't be a double-burn of the same buyers or increase buyer costs.  They should do right by their distributors too.  I don't want to get burned, and I don't want Jason to get burned either.

I definitely don't think we should be in any rush to let Gotway off the hook.  They should come out with a statement about this matter that reassures buyers and distributors that they will make things right come hell or high water.

And if it can't be made right with this generation of wheels, it's important to know that too.  Right away.  It's one thing if a product needs fixing and another if it can't be fixed.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Dingfelder

[meepmeepmayer]

@Dingfelder

• Go up the hill and watch what current it produces. Worst case, you have to stop every 3-4 minutes for 2 minutes or so.
• Watch some msuper V3 hill videos and realize this is probably still overcautious. There have been 2 cases of this with ACMs on steep hills, that's it. I don't think a msuper V3 even ever had melted cables. The empiric facts speak for themselves.
• Wear helmet and kneed pads and wrist pads

Please don't let this possible issue sour you on EUC riding (especially constant current watching, don't do it!). <10% incline (10% is already a lot!) should be fine anyways. Start slow and mellow and gain trust in the wheel while slowly ramping it up, steeper hills, longer uninterrupted incline rides. Unless you're really overdoing it, nothing will happen anyways.

I know it's not perfect, but this is Gotway so this is all we get

Edited June 29, 2017 by meepmeepmayer

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@Dingfelder

• Go up the hill and watch what current it produces. Worst case, you have to stop every 3-4 minutes for 2 minutes or so.
• Watch some msuper V3 hill videos and realize this is probably still overcautious. There have been 2 cases of this with ACMs on steep hills, that's it. I don't think a msuper V3 even ever had melted cables. The empiric facts speak for themselves.
• Wear helmet and kneed pads and wrist pads

Please don't let this possible issue sour you on EUC riding (especially constant current watching, don't do it!). <10% incline (10% is already a lot!) should be fine anyways. Start slow and mellow and gain trust in the wheel while slowly ramping it up, steeper hills, longer uninterrupted incline rides. Unless you're really overdoing it, nothing will happen anyways.

I know it's not perfect, but this is Gotway so this is all we get

Agreed. And @Dingfelder, please determine the slope of the hills that you will be riding. The issue with melting cables comes into play with very steep, long hills. I have rarely encountered such hills in all the mountain riding that I do.

Keep in mind that although there have been melted cables reported, it's actually a rare occurrence.

I'm certainly not trying to let Gotway off the hook, but am trying to set realistic expectations based on previous Gotway behavior.

[Dingfelder]

Thanks meep and Marty.  

I'm not soured on EUC riding, but do believe my ride should be a safe and reliable one.

If melting wires are rare, I hope that means rare enough that I won't see it.  I really don't want a six-month wheel or a broken face, and I can't afford to throw away $2k USD on a significant gamble.

I don't know how to figure out the slope of the road that leads to my house.  Google maps always tries to figure out the way by going in a more or less straight line through the woods rather than by following our road, even though the road has been here for at least 20 years.  Any ideas?

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Dingfelder

[Marty Backe]

12 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

Thanks meep and Marty.  

I'm not soured on EUC riding, but do believe my ride should be a safe and reliable one.

If melting wires are rare, I hope that means rare enough that I won't see it.  I really don't want a six-month wheel or a broken face.

I don't know how to figure out the slope of the road that leads to my house.  Google maps always tries to figure out the way by going in a more or less straight line through the woods rather than by following our road, even though the road has been here for at least 20 years.  Any ideas?

 

Very easy if you have Google Earth installed. Open Google Earth and zoom into the road that leads to your house. Create a path:

• Click on the Add Path icon on the top toolbar.
• Click a bunch of points that trace the road
• Name the path in the dialog and click OK
• You can now view the Elevation Profile of your path via the Edit menu
• The elevation profile will show you the slope information along the road.

The slope that burned my ACM was 25% - 30%

Hope this helps.

  Marty

Edited June 29, 2017 by Marty Backe

[steve454]

12 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

I don't know how to figure out the slope of the road that leads to my house.  Google maps always tries to figure out the way by going in a more or less straight line through the woods rather than by following our road, even though the road has been here for at least 20 years.  Any ideas?

@Marty Backe's way with google earth is the better way, but with a smart phone you can install free incline measuring apps and lay the phone down on different places of the road.  

[LanghamP]

How does one tell which wheel is the better hill-climber without falling off?

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, LanghamP said:

How does one tell which wheel is the better hill-climber without falling off?

The bottom line is if someone is so fearful of the wheel failing while climbing hills, because of melted cables, etc., they should not buy a Gotway wheel. I'm serious. Sacrificing peace of mind is not worth it. KingSong makes great products that appear to have no cable issues.

Under the conditions which are going to cause the wheel to fail you will be traveling very slow. The odds of getting hurt are very low.

Riding EUCs should be considered a contact sport. You are riding on a single wheel with no redundancies. People are fooling themselves if they expect great safety. This is why I wear safety gear.

[US69]

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The bottom line is if someone is so fearful of the wheel failing while climbing hills, because of melted cables, etc., they should not buy a Gotway wheel. I'm serious. Sacrificing peace of mind is not worth it. KingSong makes great products that appear to have no cable issues.

Under the conditions which are going to cause the wheel to fail you will be traveling very slow. The odds of getting hurt are very low.

Riding EUCs should be considered a contact sport. You are riding on a single wheel with no redundancies. People are fooling themselves if they expect great safety. This is why I wear safety gear.

Exactly! while on "contact sports" you are self responsible for what happens, while on the wheel you must trust in its reliability....

i love driving fast, with quick a accelerations, running up the hills, but i can only do that on a wheel which i have full confidence in.

My Msuper now makes some "gnarc" gnoises on heavy load changes.....i guess the nut has becoming a bit loose, i have to check, thats sure....

Everytime i hear those noises, i get a grumbling sense.....

its time that my new wheels arrives :-)

[meepmeepmayer]

46 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The bottom line is if someone is so fearful of the wheel failing while climbing hills, because of melted cables, etc., they should not buy a Gotway wheel. I'm serious. Sacrificing peace of mind is not worth it. KingSong makes great products that appear to have no cable issues.

Under the conditions which are going to cause the wheel to fail you will be traveling very slow. The odds of getting hurt are very low.

Riding EUCs should be considered a contact sport. You are riding on a single wheel with no redundancies. People are fooling themselves if they expect great safety. This is why I wear safety gear.

You could print this out and I would sign it.

3 ways to have peace of mind:

• slowly get to the limits of the wheel without breaking it (experience)
• wear safety gear: wrist, kneed guards; helmet (safeguarding)
• buy Kingsong and see if they really can't be broken (sidestepping)

 

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

How does one tell which wheel is the better hill-climber without falling off?

I think you can't.

As the manufacturers (or at least GW) don't test this and don't seem to have predictable electric designs that would make testing dispensable, only ultimate way is to ride up hills with the wheels until they break or stop you, then you know for certain.

You know, the breaking point tests the manufacturers should be doing instead of their customers (or at least Gotway, not sure how much KS wheels have been stress tested by riders)

[who_the]

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

• Watch some msuper V3 hill videos and realize this is probably still overcautious. There have been 2 cases of this with ACMs on steep hills, that's it. I don't think a msuper V3 even ever had melted cables. The empiric facts speak for themselves.

I wish that were true. My MSuper V3-1300/84V (Feb. 2017) melted its cables and connectors during a group ride hill climb in May. My wheel did not cut out or fail, but the damaged solder bubbled up badly, and the connectors required replacement and repair by my reseller.

[meepmeepmayer]

So you were only a tiny bit away from cut out? Did you stop because you smelled something?

The cables were damaged too but did not have to be replaced? How that?

[Rehab1]

18 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

FWIW, after Jason flashes my wheel (hopefully Saturday?) I am going to armor up and repeat the scenario that threw me off a week in a half ago. Hopefully that will help to regain everyone's confidence (including mine) in their fix. I'm going to drink a couple of beers first to mentally prepare for this 

Marty, just a thought. If you attempt this you should have someone else film the event! That way you can fully concentrate on just riding the wheel and both of your upper extremities will be free and not impeded by holding onto the selfstick. Please be careful!

Edited June 29, 2017 by Rehab1

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

Marty, just a thought. If you attempt this you should have someone else film the event! That way you can fully concentrate on just riding the wheel and both of your upper extremities will be free and not be impeded holding onto the selfstick. 

I appreciate that suggestion. I wouldn't want to ask my wife to film this and I don't have anyone else around this Saturday. Plus I think the perspective from down low is great. BTW, my expectations are obviously (or maybe it's not obvious to everyone ) that the wheel will perform beautifully and I will continue on down the sidewalk and enjoy a nice little ride.

[Rehab1]

22 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I appreciate that suggestion. I wouldn't want to ask my wife to film this and I don't have anyone else around this Saturday. Plus I think the perspective from down low is great. BTW, my expectations are obviously (or maybe it's not obvious to everyone ) that the wheel will perform beautifully and I will continue on down the sidewalk and enjoy a nice little ride.

Ok... how about placing a camera in the bushes so I can see your face!

Edited June 30, 2017 by Rehab1

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I appreciate that suggestion. I wouldn't want to ask my wife to film this and I don't have anyone else around this Saturday. Plus I think the perspective from down low is great. BTW, my expectations are obviously (or maybe it's not obvious to everyone ) that the wheel will perform beautifully and I will continue on down the sidewalk and enjoy a nice little ride.

Maybe a certain newly single and left behind with a slower wheel female might volunteer to help film you as her BF recovers in the hospital.    Didja get some digits?    Hope that's vague enough... 

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Marty Backe]

9 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Maybe a certain newly single and left behind with a slower wheel female might volunteer to help film you as her BF recovers in the hospital.    Didja get some digits?    Hope that's vague enough... 

 

That is too funny. Leave it to you to tie two disparate threads together