💪 EUC pull force test results - reviewers please do this!

[Freestyler]

1 hour ago, Vanyayak said:

Hey, so u telling, that upper phase current limit in mten4 bigger than in mcm5?

mten3 had the same 180a limit.

[Vanyayak]

4 hours ago, Freestyler said:

mten3 had the same 180a limit.

mten3? i thought mten3 peak current is 150A.
btw..
is it allready possible to flash tiltback firmware (also maybee with increased current) on mten4?
firmware version in euc-dash detected

Edited October 7, 2022 by Vanyayak

[Freestyler]

Nope, it was 180 all along for the mten3.

I have already ported and flashed the pwm tiltback to an mten4 user.

Not sure if raising the limit is a good idea on the stock cells. Wouldn't pushing more current than the cells could handle lead to a fire? At least that's what ewheels theory was for the LG cells.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Freestyler

[enaon]

45 minutes ago, Freestyler said:

Nope, it was 180 all along for the mten3.

pappas test on the first page shows it as 150, maybe the old ones with green board with smaller capacity were lower?

[Leskont]

On 10/9/2022 at 3:09 PM, Freestyler said:

Nope, it was 180 all along for the mten3.

I have already ported and flashed the pwm tiltback to an mten4 user.

Not sure if raising the limit is a good idea on the stock cells. Wouldn't pushing more current than the cells could handle lead to a fire? At least that's what ewheels theory was for the LG cells.

I know him personally)) It doesn't have a stock battery 

[RagingGrandpa]

Added more results:

V12: More like V11 in a different box.
V12HT: Ok that's better.
T4: Strong lil bugger! Slightly higher pull than MSX84, and the same freespin speed (48mph), nice.
S22: C'mon Kingsong...

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by RagingGrandpa

[supercurio]

As you measured Inmotion and the new King Song wheel, I think it's time to put the test results more in perspective and highlight the limits of the test.

Context

A few months back (still need to edit the video and record some further analysis) I measured the S22 and V12 HS.
When completing the pull force measurements for these two, it was apparent that the controller throttles the phase current pretty quickly when observing that there's a high torque demand but no tire rotation.

To be precise, it shows as when you pull on the bar, you can feel that the motor is fairly strong and then as it gets over-powered, pulling it becomes significantly easier. Something that does not happen when you test the 16X for instance, which resists strongly the same from ramping up the torque as you pull to keeping the same torque as you over-powered the motor and increase the pedal dipping angle.

V12 & V12 HT

Inmotion wheels record the phase current in their internal log so it might be possible to confirm my subjective assessment that there's stalled motor throttling.
So I suspect that the value for V12/V12 HT are invalid, representing only a percentage of what will be available when riding.

S22

On the S22, the result here at 118lbs is obviously invalid - should be marked as such with an explanation why or simply not entered.
Or if it's valid as "pull force" in the definition of this test, it's not a useful value, and somewhat misleading for anything related to riding.

When you conduct a pull force test with the S22, you can really feel that okay... fairly strong comparatively then it becomes pretty easy to pull further.
From riding one again (yay!) I would rate it in between Sherman and Sherman Max, from how hard it is to over-power during hard braking at slow speed. So around 180-185lbs give or take. It's closer to the Sherman Max than Sherman.

Edited November 4, 2022 by supercurio

[RagingGrandpa]

On 11/4/2022 at 7:41 PM, supercurio said:

I measured the S22 and V12 HS.
When completing the pull force measurements for these two, it was apparent that the controller throttles the phase current pretty quickly when observing that there's a high torque demand but no tire rotation.

Nice.
So, knowing the S22's protection behavior, what was the highest pull number you recorded?

[RagingGrandpa]

Ok, I got to beat on an S22 offroad a little more... climbing grass hills aggressively revealed a level of acceleration before overlean similar to S18. Certainly not as low as my 118lb static pull result would suggest.

I also discovered some guy on telegram  posted a 167lb static pull result.

So for now, I'll leave that more plausible 167lb result shown, including disclaimer.

[novazeus]

On 5/10/2022 at 12:52 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

Results:

(More models coming soon; logfiles available here)

Why is this interesting?

Pull force shows the maximum acceleration that an EUC can create from a standstill. 

I hope we can get EUC reviewers to measure prototype wheels in the future. 
@Marty Backe @Hsiang @evX_Mick @colton @Jack ex-KS @Afeez Kay @Jason McNeil @Alien Rides @GoGeorgeGo @ray rokni @Mike Sacristan @U-Stride @Cutiyo 

 

nice of u to do all this! i just received my s22 and i can confirm it has a outside diameter of 20".

my s18 should arrive shortly and i expect an 18" outside diameter for it. 

[RagingGrandpa]

Every model marked '18" class' in the table has a 14" rim  

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[Freestyler]

Ex30 280a

Seems like a leap in performance 

[mrelwood]

There was a video shared in the Telegram V13 group where the wheel dips badly at the very end of a very hard braking:

https://t.me/inmotionV13eng/6477

My theory of it is that the V13 too has a stricter current limiter when the wheel is stationary, and here we see the limiter pop up into action as the speed becomes zero.

 We don’t know which wheels have this limiter and which ones don’t, but I would disregard at least all Inmotion and KingSong results in this torque test chart.

[RagingGrandpa]

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

disregard at least all Inmotion and KingSong results

The results are real! 

What other objective measurement would you propose, to determine overlean limits?

[Chriull]

14 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

The results are real! 

What other objective measurement would you propose, to determine overlean limits?

As these results are at standstill they could be showing some special firmware protection.

To verify this one would need max torque measurements at different speeds to get the "normal" low/medium firmware motor current limit and then the transition to the "normal" overlean torque limit.

[mrelwood]

10 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

The results are real!

Sure they are. But only at standstill. When the wheel has speed more than 3mph, the results and the order of the list will be totally different. I personally don’t ride much at standstill.

10 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

What other objective measurement would you propose, to determine overlean limits?

That’s a tough one. Unless someone builds an exquisite treadmill attachment where the same test can be made at speed, I really don’t know. Maybe just be ok with subjective experiences and reviews, like we have been before the pull test was implemented? Just like no-one has implemented mechanics to measure the exact differences in mainboard or motor power efficiency, but we still get a sufficient amount data from subjective reviews and comparisons to determine rough differences in range results.

 The problem is that this list gives a completely wrong idea about the performance of about half of the contenders. Yet it affects people’s buying decisions. It’s simply bad advice.

Edited February 4, 2023 by mrelwood

[FunTech4Real]

3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

10 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

 

That’s a tough one. Unless someone builds an exquisite treadmill attachment where the same test can be made at speed, I really don’t know. Maybe just be ok with subjective experiences and reviews, like we have been before the pull test was implemented? Just like no-one has implemented mechanics to measure the exact differences in mainboard or motor power efficiency, but we still get a sufficient amount data from subjective reviews and comparisons to determine rough differences in range results.

 The problem is that this list gives a completely wrong idea about the performance of about half of the contenders. Yet it affects people’s buying decisions. It’s simply bad advice

Inmotion has built such a machine that they showed off in their V13 testing video. Its basically a dyno test for EUCs. Someone needs to build one of these and test the wheels for us.... I bet the Russians can do it!

[Josiah]

Edited February 4, 2023 by Josiah

[Chriull]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

That’s a tough one. Unless someone builds an exquisite treadmill attachment where the same test can be made at speed, I really don’t know

@EcoDriftdid in 2016 some dynamometer tests. His links are unfortunately gone - or just the forum changed to some other name?

Some germans did some measurements/tests, too.

Have not seen someone publishing tests with actual wheels.

Wonder if they'll survive a full run with max torque...

[Bizra6ot]

There was also the guy from Eucservice/MSS line, the video is a loop but at the end of it there is a graph on the screen
 

 

[RagingGrandpa]

On 2/4/2023 at 6:06 AM, Bizra6ot said:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lpyHSzmUFRc

70Nm? 
That's just 62 pounds pull-force for a 20" tire diameter... some information is missing. 

[Bizra6ot]

Surely, also it increases with the speed instead of decreasing is it 70Nm at ~5xKph 500Rpm? I have no details I had asked questions to the guy from mss on IG when he had posted this and never got an answer

[drader]

I am having a hard time believing this test. I have a T2 with 2.5" tire, an 84v Nikola with real 12-3.00 tire, and a T4 also with a real 12-3.00 tire. Of the three the T2 has the most explosive off-the-line starting torque, and it's not even close. So fun to zip around due to how it rips 0-10mph. The 84v Nikola is pretty good. There isn't a hill I can't climb. It used to be more similar to the T2, but I modded it to use a super fat tire, and that dulled the off-the-line response a bit. The T4 is a big fat disappointment. Starting torque is nowhere near the other two. It excels in the mid range, but as an offroad wheel where you are stopping or slowing way down to do some trials it sucks. There is a hill I can climb with the Nikola that I cannot climb with the T4... not because of power, but because it requires more lean to get the same motivation, and then you run out of grip and/or confidence.

[RagingGrandpa]

12 hours ago, drader said:

There is a hill I can climb with the Nikola that I cannot climb with the T4...
not because of power, but because it requires more lean to get the same motivation, and then you run out of grip and/or confidence.

Exactly. 

Pull force reveals the overlean force at zero speed, which is just one attribute of an EUC's design.
Pull force tells us the ultimate limit at a standstill; but doesn't say anything about ride feel or ease of acceleration.

The numbers are real! But they're not the whole story, of course. 
Pull force is quite interesting to me personally, since I use EUC's to push over severe obstacles offroad and encounter stall limits frequently. 

[DjPanJan]

Mten4 

Sherman S

S22 pro