Matthieu Thegrey Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 17 hours ago, Kekafuch said: I recently learned most Gotway riders and maybe Shermans turn the tiltback safety function off? Something that InMotion doesn’t allow users to turn off. Tilt back likely requires an ample amount amount of reserve power. Even on Gotway, tiltback has to set quite a bit slower than the top speeds. Yeah i have always turned titltback off on GW wheels as it's terribly unreliable. But when i hear the 80% beeps i am serious and i don't force (too much ). And for the Sherman, it's that simple: i have never even been able to make it beep by speed or even acceleration/deceleration, despite testing it quite roughly... the margin is so high that TB is just no more needed, as I will never get past 65/70 km/h so what's the point for a tiltback? None. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjam.nyc Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Planemo said: If Gotway did a voltage-dependant tiltback that worked as well as the 80% alarm I would be all over it. It annoys me that they haven't, instead forcing riders to rely on the potentially inaudible buzzer. As you say, other manufacturers have done it. I guess what is annoying to me about it.. is not the people who go into this knowing all well how it works.. But if you are coming from one of the other manufacturers and are just not in the know on how it functions.. you can find yourself in some trouble. I dont own a Gotway (yet) but even as a semi experienced rider i didnt fully realize how their tiltback worked until recently.. Not that i would be pushing the boundaries on a such a fast and powerful wheel.. but sometimes you just get caught. I think the idea of having a default voltage-dependant tiltback with the option to turn it off is a nice compromise.. And just to keep this on topic.. Inmotion while they didnt allow the option to turn things off.. they did allow experienced riders to up the speed on v11.. So it is nice to see them kind of toying with these ideas.. Being the v12 may be geared towards people looking for some more power.. Its possible they may open up some flexibility on this with the new wheel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie888 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Planemo said: If Gotway did a voltage-dependant tiltback that worked as well as the 80% alarm I would be all over it. It annoys me that they haven't, instead forcing riders to rely on the potentially inaudible buzzer. As you say, other manufacturers have done it. By no means am I inferring you're incorrect but some might also argue that the reason they ride GWs is because the control lies in the riders hands (err I mean feet). Besides GW, which other make/s have true 35mph (& up) wheels? Veteran Sherman is one but a case can be made that this is due to its GW heritage & mindset. Some might consider Inmotion V11 to be part of that club but the experienced enthusiasts here also know it isn't really a true 35mph wheel. Otherwise a claim can also be made that the Mten3 is a 25mph wheel. GW as of now has 5 currently available models in that category. Say what we want & IMO yes, GW does deserve some of the bashing it's currently receiving but that has nothing to do with its need for speed credo. Personally I do want GW to imitate IM but only in their product fit & finish. In other aspects, I enjoy GW's view of the world. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 25 minutes ago, Scottie888 said: By no means am I inferring you're incorrect but some might also argue that the reason they ride GWs is because the control lies in the riders hands Sure, I'm absolutely all for every rider setting up their wheel how they want. I run without 1st and 2nd alarms (and tiltback) myself. But I think we should at least have the option of turning off/on what we want. Bear in mind that the tiltback I am asking for won't jeopardise the speed of the wheel at all (to counter your GW speedheads angle), I just want it to work alongside the 80% beeps. I am not asking for any more speed, just another option for the 80% warning. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 (edited) On 3/1/2021 at 3:41 PM, Unventor said: So you are prepared to tide an EUC at 60mph? Give me an euc that can, with some headroom, I'd love to try! Im steadily working my way to 50mph atm.... Would it be a good business move to make a wheel that caters to my brand of insanity... probably not. I am beginning to think most euc riders aren't overly interested in pushing odds of success closer to 51/49, than they need to. You make your $$ by catering to the masses, not the niche'. I would like to see Inmo spend money on making me HAVE to buy a refined v11, than them making another non suspension. I think we have seen the limits in non suspension wheels at current tech. Unless inmo decides to step up quality and refinement, what is there left to do? Cmon inmo, surprise us with unheard of quality in the v11.2, or make a champ to the 18XL but use quality EVERYTHING. Still not much point to the latter, aside from proving that refinement and true quality is possible. Edited March 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrelwood Posted March 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 3, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Matthieu Thegrey said: Yeah i have always turned titltback off on GW wheels as it's terribly unreliable. Interesting. For me the tilt-back on the 84V MSX worked like a Swiss watch, both at 48km/h set by the GW app, as well as at 51 and 54 km/h set by DB. The tilt-back has a long and gentle ramp up, but it always worked as expected. Quote But when i hear the 80% beeps i am serious and i don't force (too much ). When I didn’t hear any beeps, I didn’t know if they played or not. They are played inside a sealed box and directed to the side of the wheel. A little wind and there is zero chance of hearing them. THAT’S what I call terribly unreliable... Quote I will never get past 65/70 km/h so what's the point for a tiltback? None. Speed blindness. That’s what I used it for. We all do get familiar with speed, and more is needed to give the same thrill. But the braking distance doesn’t follow our blindness. Edited March 3, 2021 by mrelwood 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, mrelwood said: Speed blindness. That’s what I used it for. We all do get familiar with speed, and more is needed to give the same thrill. But the braking distance doesn’t follow our blindness. The struggle is VERY real! Even more so when riding along faster vehicles it seems. My 18L has a wonderful tiltback and I very much appreciate it being there. The sherm is similar, as its a VERY important feature in my book. Hard to hear beeps in 45mph winds with helmet on. Worth the repost, should be a sticky in the safety section!!!!! Edited March 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Bjerke Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 V12 will compete with Veteran Sherman? Im not so sure, first and foremost the buyers for Sherman have prob already purchased it and why should they buy more wheels if they are happy with the "tank"? Also V12 will have a 16" tire making it differenct from the big tire wheels. For Sherman fans the V12 might be wheel #2 maybe for off roading? I might be daft but is the V12 gonna be a new type of suspension wheel? I certainly hope so. I love the flying feel and the gentleness of it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoGeorgeGo Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 7 hours ago, Finn Bjerke said: V12 will compete with Veteran Sherman? Im not so sure, first and foremost the buyers for Sherman have prob already purchased it and why should they buy more wheels if they are happy with the "tank"? Also V12 will have a 16" tire making it differenct from the big tire wheels. For Sherman fans the V12 might be wheel #2 maybe for off roading? I might be daft but is the V12 gonna be a new type of suspension wheel? I certainly hope so. I love the flying feel and the gentleness of it . Ive been waiting for a long range wheel, i personally am not in a rush to buy a conpanies first ever wheel. Plus the Sherman has a hard time starting and stopping for my taste. Im looking at the EXN now that the v12 is rumored to have only an 1800wh battery. Im hopeful the rumor is wrong though, if its a 2700wh 100v battery wheel it will be the sherman competitor ive been waiting for. No suspension on the v12 either supposedly, but hey we are all waiting for an official announcement still Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthieu Thegrey Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 (edited) On 3/3/2021 at 3:41 AM, mrelwood said: Interesting. For me the tilt-back on the 84V MSX worked like a Swiss watch, both at 48km/h set by the GW app, as well as at 51 and 54 km/h set by DB. The tilt-back has a long and gentle ramp up, but it always worked as expected. I find KS Tiltback much better implemented. On my MSX, if i set TB to 35km/H, i will never feel the TB. I will just have the feeling to struggle to accelerate, and it's very tiring, because it starts changing the inclination of the wheel much before 35 km/H. And the worst thing is it's not even obvious that i push tooo strong on the wheel... Is that wind? Am I on a bad mood? Too confusing... If i set it even to 48 km/h, in a risky situation, when per example i need to quickly accelerate, i won't be able to confortably do it. For such a powerful wheel, that TB feature is just a huge drawback in comfort. And that beep is so loud, i could not miss it.... Another thing is, when I go back to home (I live in the uphills) on very low battery whith the msx, i will get those beeps and tiltback as soon as i begin to climb. And sometimes, i get the final tiltback, and am forced to walk. And that is the real feature, and i get it despite i have disabled tiltback so what else ?? In the same situation with my 18L, the wheel will just climb, and if i put too much force, i will get a real, obvious TB to says me "okay calm down". And it won't beep permanently, awakening all the neighborhood. Much better IMHO. Edited March 5, 2021 by Matthieu Thegrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Bjerke Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 6 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said: No suspension on the v12 either supposedly, but hey we are all waiting for an official announcement still They keep us in suspense...... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 3 hours ago, Matthieu Thegrey said: On my MSX, if i set TB to 35km/H, i will never feel the TB. I will just have the feeling to struggle to accelerate Ah, I really like this very feature! If I struggle to accelerate near the max speed, it doesn’t matter to me if it’s the wind, bad mood, or something else. It stops me from wanting to go faster, while KS tb just annoys me by reminding me about me not being in control. Not a feature I’d call unreliable though. 3 hours ago, Matthieu Thegrey said: and it's very tiring, because it starts changing the inclination of the wheel much before 35 km/H. It always starts 3km/h below the set speed. Again, always reliably. KS starts 2km/h before. Or at least some version of the fw did on the 16S, but it did change at some point, which I might call unreliable. 3 hours ago, Matthieu Thegrey said: Another thing is, when I go back to home (I live in the uphills) on very low battery whith the msx, i will get those beeps and tiltback as soon as i begin to climb. And sometimes, i get the final tiltback, and am forced to walk. And that is the real feature, and i get it despite i have disabled tiltback so what else ?? All wheels tilt back when they are running out of battery, and they stay tilted back when the battery is too low for you to ride. It’s not related to the user set top speed tilt-back. If the wheels wouldn’t tilt back on low battery, they would fall forward and drop the rider soon after due to lack of sufficient power for balancing. I’m sure you wouldn’t prefer that. 3 hours ago, Matthieu Thegrey said: In the same situation with my 18L, the wheel will just climb Then it wasn’t the same situation was it, because the 18L had enough battery left for the hill, while the MSX didn’t? 3 hours ago, Matthieu Thegrey said: And it won't beep permanently, awakening all the neighborhood. I also hate the constant low battery beeps on the MSX. But they are not related to tilt-back. I understand why you don’t like the GW tilt-back. But none of things you mention make it unreliable in my books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gon2fast Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 InMotion - Pictures? Actual Stats? Size of wheel (16" or 18")? Anything... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 3 minutes ago, gon2fast said: InMotion - Pictures? Actual Stats? Size of wheel (16" or 18")? Anything... Hsiang made an offhand comment about Inmotion not wanting to release any details because they are worried Kingsong will try to one up them. It makes since but they should have not even announced the V12 yet if that was the case. Kingsong is working on a new wheel too but they didn't bother confirming it yet months before they are ready to show anything (Though I suppose it's not to late for them to make the same mistake too) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kekafuch Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, gon2fast said: InMotion - Pictures? Actual Stats? Size of wheel (16" or 18")? Anything... Apple is rumoured to have an event in March. I found some tech companies like DJI have chosen to release info and products during the same week as an Apple event for whatever reason. if the V12 is a 2021 wheel, nows the time to have info out. I hope it’s modular as in built in 1500packs and optional add on pack to 2250wh. suspension optional and bolt on friendly. Edited March 7, 2021 by Kekafuch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post FinRider Posted March 7, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Kekafuch said: Apple is rumoured to have an event in March. I found some tech companies like DJI have chosen to release info and products during the same week as an Apple event for whatever reason. if the V12 is a 2021 wheel, nows the time to have info out. I hope it’s modular as in built in 1500packs and optional add on pack to 2250wh. suspension optional and bolt on friendly. This is always a tricky situation. I deal with the exact same thing for work. If we "announce" a new product, then it immediately hurts the sales of the current models we have in the market. And we rely on sales from the current models to finance the development of the new model... You do not want to be outdone by the competition, but you also do not want to hurt your own sales yet you do want to stop the sales of your competitors products. The best strategy in my opinion is the announce the new model, with specs and everything, when you already have a solid prototype and where the specs/engineering of the product will not change anymore. You also need to have a solid understanding of when you can start taking orders and deliveries can start. 1st gen suspension wheels last year were a gamechanger for the industry and I sincerely hope that the manufacturers can learn from the experience and create a better mousetrap for us to spend our hard earned money on. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drader Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 If I was in charge of this at Inmotion I would take the motor, headlight, battery pack and controller from the V11 and build a 16 X 3.5" non-suspension wheel, with a Sherman-like roll cage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gon2fast Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 A smarter motor/controller configuration would be nice. I would love to be able to have torque and speed mode on a wheel versus having to buy multiple wheels (HS/HT). Pipe dream at best, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Silver Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, gon2fast said: I would love to be able to have torque and speed mode on a wheel versus having to buy multiple wheels (HS/HT) That's controlled by physical things it's not something that is controlled by software. You could add a gear box or something to change the ratio of mechanical advantage but they don't even put gearboxes on electric cars (normally it has been done before) for a reason so I don't think that would go well on a unicycle. Edited March 8, 2021 by Silver 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mhpr262 Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 4 hours ago, Silver said: they don't even put gearboxes on electric cars (normally it has been done before) for a reason A gearbox adds a massive amount of weight, complexity, volume required, cost and friction losses. It is almost always cheaper to just put in a bigger motor. A bigger motor may weigh a little bit more but unlike an internal combustion engine you dont get a fuel/energy consumption penalty with an electric motor, quite the opposite. Electric motors love working "throttled" because they achieve their best efficiency at just a fraction of the rated or maximum output. It is exactly the opposite with IC engines. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhpr262 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 6 hours ago, drader said: If I was in charge of this at Inmotion I would take the motor, headlight, battery pack and controller from the V11 and build a 16 X 3.5" non-suspension wheel, with a Sherman-like roll cage. That roll cage weighs six frigging kilograms. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 57 minutes ago, mhpr262 said: That roll cage weighs six frigging kilograms. This can't be right. 6kg for a steel tube? But on the topic of weight: the new motors are the culprit. They're all so heavy. I wonder if this can be improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FullTilt Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 58 minutes ago, mhpr262 said: A bigger motor may weigh a little bit more but unlike an internal combustion engine you dont get a fuel/energy consumption penalty with an electric motor, quite the opposite. Electric motors love working "throttled" because they achieve their best efficiency at just a fraction of the rated or maximum output. It is exactly the opposite with IC engines. That makes sense. I wonder however if the 2200W V11 motor would be sufficient and Inmotion would just need to make the wheel 100V and tweak the software limits to achieve better performance. The 100V Nikola has just a 2000W motor (vs. 2500W Sherman or 2600W RS) and already gets up over 40mph. If so, for the V12, I can see them keeping the same motor, the same wheel size, lose the suspension for weight savings, but tweak the software to fully utilize a bigger > 1845Wh 100V battery. A more powerful motor (and maybe addition battery capacity) might be needed if they wish to challenge current speed/torque/range records though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhpr262 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: This can't be right. 6kg for a steel tube? But on the topic of weight: the new motors are the culprit. They're all so heavy. I wonder if this can be improved. There recently was a thread on the r/unicycle subreddit where a guy showed his heavily used Sherman with the roll cage removed. Somebody asked about the roll cage and why it was missing and the owner answered that he did it in order to make the wheel lighter and that the difference was 6kg. And regarding the motor, I am very certain they can be improved. Motors can be built without an iron core, just the copper windings. They are much lighter and more efficient too. The German manufacturer of brushless high end R/C motors Kontronik offers a number of such motors. The downside is that the electronic speed/power controller must be a lot more sophisticated. And manufacturers like Magnax offer brand new radial flux motors, which in theory ought to be pretty much perfect for our purposes due to their "natural" pancake shape. Unfortunately nobody has built such a motor in an outrunner configutation yet, which is what we would need for our wheels but it would be easily feasible. Source: I asked that precise question in the comments under a youtube video from Magnax and a representative of the manufaturer answered me. He also told me there were no plans on their side to build such a motor with an outrunner topology for now but he diid say it would possible (easily, I inferred).l 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post UniVehje Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, mhpr262 said: There recently was a thread on the r/unicycle subreddit where a guy showed his heavily used Sherman with the roll cage removed. Somebody asked about the roll cage and why it was missing and the owner answered that he did it in order to make the wheel lighter and that the difference was 6kg. I'm not doubting the story. But could there be something lost in conversions? 6 lbs or 2.72 kg sounds perfectly believable. 6 kg (13.2 lbs) is a lot even for steel. 2 hours ago, FullTilt said: I wonder however if the 2200W V11 motor would be sufficient and Inmotion would just need to make the wheel 100V and tweak the software limits to achieve better performance. The 100V Nikola has just a 2000W motor (vs. 2500W Sherman or 2600W RS) and already gets up over 40mph. I wouldn't read too much into the watt number. It just means how much it can sustain longer periods without overheating. Peak power is always much more. You can increase the rated wattage just by taking an existing motor and improving ventilation on it. The performance is not really about wattage in modern wheels. The same motor with higher voltage can have higher RPM and is thus faster. The motors can be wound differently or have different size magnets but wattage number tells very little. I guess manufacturers compete on that number for spec sheets and because IC engines can be compared by it. Also, high speeds don't actually require a lot of power. Acceleration and climbing do. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts