Another KS 16X cut off - don't ride KS16X at the higher speeds! (gross photo warning)

[Unventor]

7 hours ago, alex5454 said:

I honestly don't care about the top speed of 50 km / h. I just don't want to have a cut off when I'm traveling if I put 40 km / h on KS 16x can I sleep peacefully ?

Well most cutouts are typical people pushing the limit of the wheel. For some top speed is all important. And despite not all a "big" people, the dynamic of been big is not helping to prevent cutouts. 

Now I have said this many times before. Topspeed do not need to be your only joy factor. It surly isn't for me. But I do think @mrelwood hit the nail on the head. KS had a choice either match GW or loose customers, since it on paper cannot match GWs competing model (Nikola, keep in mind many factors can pull customer to either model), KS decided to on paper to match GW. Each rider have different weight and way they use their wheel. I ride my wheels around 30-35kmh in general. My average speed is consistently 28-30kmh on my commuting rides. I am not a huge fan of push to a wheel to it's limits. I my book people complaining about throttling simply bought the wrong product.

So long story short, in order to stay in the market KS launched a wheel a bit too soon and oversold it capabilities instead of telling what it do really great. Compared Ninebot kept their Z10 at 45kmh limit so should KS have done too.,Imho. The two things that disapoint me the most are lag of weatherproofing in a high-priced 2019 model. Then add that they apparently have not thought enough about their control board layout, is simply byound me. So this make me say my KS16X is a love hate relationship. I love how it rides. But is only 80% safe to me despite I don't ride the limits.

After all it is all about trust in the wheel. I am looking forward to see what Inmotion have cooked up. If it is safe like a KS18XL and handles like a KS16X... And propper weather sealed. I don't need 50 or 60 kmh wheel. But that is just me. 

[Marty Backe]

On 12/26/2019 at 5:12 AM, photorph said:

In all my time of riding EUCs and riding 10+ different EUCs, I've never experienced a cut out or a fall at such high speed.  With the KS 16X I had a cut out at 27.8 mph, no beeps or tilt-back as I had those set to 29 mph and 30 mph respectively per the top speed listed by KS.  Post cut off voltage was 77v.  There really was no reason for a cut off here, I'm only 145 lbs and was riding at a sufficient battery (77v), temperature was around 50F, and I'm on the latest firmware 1.07.  Cut out happened when I attempted to accelerate from 27 to 29 with a gentle push.  

I'm 100% okay with the exception of this road rash on left side where my jacket lifted up, second day and it's running it's cycle of healing.  I'll be perfectly okay.  Many thanks to Alpinestar motorcycle jacket/Klim K fifty 2 moto jeans/knox gloves.  Just a flesh wound that will heal soon.  

<picture snipped>

 

Making this post as a PSA.  On the KS16X recommend setting 3rd alarm to 40-42 km/h and tilt-back to around 43-45 km/hr.  These are the max speeds kingsong should have advertised rather than trying to match the nikola.  I'm also wondering another thing, will it cut out at slower speeds on a steep hill climb...

There's another long thread on this here with someone who also cut out at a similar speed:

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/16436-ks16x-cutoffoverlean-29-30mph/

 

I will add that kingsong has new controllers that are a different design than the one I had on my second batch KS16X.  Will this mean that the you actually will have power reserves at 25+ mph to avoid a cut out??  That I cannot say, but I won't be the one to attempt to push it once above 25 mph even if I put in the new controller.  Or I might just sell the wheel, as I can't keep up with 100v gotway group rides.

 

Glad you're OK of course. I think I'm going to consider my 16X a 25mph or under wheel, and mostly under. Fortunately that matches most of my riding.

If people want speed (25+ mph) they should just buy Gotway.

BTW, maybe edit your post and put the picture in a Quote so then we only get to see it if we click to expand the quote. FYI.

[houseofjob]

On 12/26/2019 at 8:12 AM, photorph said:

Making this post as a PSA.  On the KS16X recommend setting 3rd alarm to 40-42 km/h and tilt-back to around 43-45 km/hr.  These are the max speeds kingsong should have advertised rather than trying to match the nikola.

Glad things weren't worse there, ..... but........

 

Oh how memories seem to be very short here.

Most now don't seem to remember that the 16X was originally pegged to be a 45kph / 28mph max wheel, until forums like these clamored for KS to raise it to 31mph.

Seems there was a reason for the cap looking back in hindsight 🧐

 

 

[RockyTop]

1 minute ago, houseofjob said:

Oh how memories seem to be very short here.

Most now don't seem to remember that the 16X was originally pegged to be a 45kph / 28mph max wheel, until forums like these clamored for KS to raise it to 31mph.

Seems there was a reason for the cap looking back in hindsight 🧐

 

Sure. Yeah,  I just didn't expect then to up the speed settings without increasing the wheel's capabilities.  Although they did up the motor to 2200 watt. 

[houseofjob]

4 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Sure. Yeah,  I just didn't expect then to up the speed settings without increasing the wheel's capabilities.  Although they did up the motor to 2200 watt. 

Then you haven't experienced the habits and behaviors of the EUC business enough (not one bit surprised here),

.... oh, and that "2200 watt" IMHO is just marketing, if they can't fully realize that potential with their firmware and engineering.

Edited December 28, 2019 by houseofjob

[photorph]

19 hours ago, alex5454 said:

I honestly don't care about the top speed of 50 km / h. I just don't want to have a cut off when I'm traveling if I put 40 km / h on KS 16x can I sleep peacefully ?

Easily, at 40 or below 100% ok.

 

14 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Sorry to hear about your crash @photorph and happy to see you made it out with "just a scrape".

If it's of any interest I have my 3rd alarm at 45 kmh and tilt-back at 50kmh.
I rarely hit hard tilt-back but I am usually gently on soft tilt-back.
As my ride progresses and the battery goes down soft tilt-back comes at a lower speed.

The alarm is set to 45 just so that I am aware to not do any crazy leaning at that speed.
Sometimes when I am riding on soft tilt-back and I push the pedals to hard I get the 88% alarm (4 quick beeps).
Maybe once or twice I have pushed so hard that I got 4 quick beeps and hard tilt-back but I was asking for it.

Were there any inclines or potholes involved in this accident?
I feel that my 16X (1st batch FW 1.07) has always been very good at presenting soft tilt back and thus making it reasonably difficult for me to push it further.
My riding weight now that it's winter is 155 lbs (70kg).
Yesterday I went for a 36km ride and spent the 18km back home pretty much beeping until I hit soft tilt-back at 44kmh. I only slowed down for parts that were too dark, as I wouldn't want to stumble forward on soft tilt-back because of an unseen obstacle or irregularity in the road.
When I got home the 16X was at 71V which later recovered to 72V. Temperature was -1C.

3680km on the wheel. Experient mode and 25 PSI.

Have you had any other problems with the wheel?

No pot holes involved, perfectly flat smooth road.  No other issues with the wheel except that I’m able to dip pedals at higher speeds.  But pretty certain same is case with you if you are brave enough to try.  Flick your ankle quickly on ks16x at 45 or above and it will dip, flick it on the MSX and it will stay level.

[Mike Sacristan]

59 minutes ago, photorph said:

No pot holes involved, perfectly flat smooth road.  No other issues with the wheel except that I’m able to dip pedals at higher speeds.  But pretty certain same is case with you if you are brave enough to try.  Flick your ankle quickly on ks16x at 45 or above and it will dip, flick it on the MSX and it will stay level.

Then that sounds even more suspicious. I doubt I would ride mine if I could ankle flick it. I ride with zero protection (unless all my winter clothes count) and would not risk it.

I've tried flicking a ton of times at high battery, high speed, low battery, top speed, soft tilt-back, etc. No results other than an alarm at low voltage and once I got a hard tilt-back. I have pressed hard enough on soft tilt-back to get the 88% alarm at 51 kmh which to me sounds like a good reason to stop pressing. I have climbed a short 22 degree incline at 0% battery.

I would see ankle flicking as indicative that something is wrong with the wheel.
I have even hit potholes at max speed and though the wheel did slightly yield forwards within the range of the soft mode that I was then riding on FW 1.05 it did not dip.
Since that incident I have stayed on the hard mode though.

I guess your wheel is cursed now. Maybe you can get your hands on another 16X and see if that can be flicked.
Or see if a 1.05 board might resolve the problem.

Again sorry to hear about all this hassle with the 16X. Riding a wheel is supposed to be a no headache experience and this sounds like a nightmare.

[photorph]

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I've tried flicking a ton of times at high battery, high speed, low battery, top speed, soft tilt-back, etc. No results other than an alarm at low voltage and once I got a hard tilt-back. I have pressed hard enough on soft tilt-back to get the 88% alarm at 51 kmh which to me sounds like a good reason to stop pressing. I have climbed a short 22 degree incline at 0% battery.
 

Do you have the newest control board?  Or were you not able to dip the pedals even when you had your first batch control board?

[mrelwood]

 

16 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I would see ankle flicking as indicative that something is wrong with the wheel.

I would’ve thought that the control board version 1.5 would’ve fixed the ankle flinkability, since a few have commented on it giving a firmer ride and no more flicks happening. But I think a few also reported that the 1.5 didn’t fix the ankle-flickability. @Mike Sacristan, isn’t your stable 16X made too early to be a 1.5?

Anyway, there were several videos and comments earlier on confirming the ankle flicks, so the flickability/faceplantability is definitely a widespread issue, not just a few faulty units. I do wish we’d find out for good wether the ”stable” 16X’s are inherently more stable at top speed, could it actually be up to the great variances in people’s riding behaviour.

[Mike Sacristan]

4 hours ago, photorph said:

Do you have the newest control board?  Or were you not able to dip the pedals even when you had your first batch control board?

Mine is first batch so it is highly unlikely. No modifications done. Everything is original as it came except for a battery connector that burned up.

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

I would’ve thought that the control board version 1.5 would’ve fixed the ankle flinkability, since a few have commented on it giving a firmer ride and no more flicks happening. But I think a few also reported that the 1.5 didn’t fix the ankle-flickability. @Mike Sacristan, isn’t your stable 16X made too early to be a 1.5?

Anyway, there were several videos and comments earlier on confirming the ankle flicks, so the flickability/faceplantability is definitely a widespread issue, not just a few faulty units. I do wish we’d find out for good wether the ”stable” 16X’s are inherently more stable at top speed, could it actually be up to the great variances in people’s riding behaviour.

Correct. Some people with 1.05 board seem to still be able to flick. Crazy stuff.

Yes mine is definitely too early.

KS16X2B190628G002

Perhaps from the pre ankle-flick era.

[meepmeepmayer]

This @EcoDrift article implies that the board limits the power delivery in one way or the other, and this is responsible for the ankle flicking/instable behavior of the 16X at high speeds. A 45kph 16XS modification with the 18XL type board doesn't have these problems. I wonder why they don't just fix this.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fecodrift.ru%2F2019%2F12%2F17%2Frazbiraemsya-v-moshhnosti-dvigatelej-na-primere-kingsong-ks-16x-16xs%2F

[redfoxdude]

My cutoff was indeed with a v1.5 board. Jason sent it to me in hopes it would resolve the pedal flick issue, but it did not, I am sad to say. The previous board was a v1.4, and honestly, it wasn't any more difficult to do the ankle flick on the v1.5. The only changes that I could make out were potentially improved EMI to reduce or eliminate the Bluetooth EMI problem from earlier boards.

[eUNIty]

Sorry to hear about hour accident. I couldnt ride my 16x over 25mph when I had it (ended up trading it for another wheel) It was too sketchy riding at higher speed because it was bouncy when I ride over road imperfections and wobbly after the bounce due to higher pedal height. And braking was harder because the side pads were slippery and didnt have much grip. And knowing from all the cutouts I didnt want to push the wheel close to its limits.

[Azze80]

14 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

I would’ve thought that the control board version 1.5 would’ve fixed the ankle flinkability, since a few have commented on it giving a firmer ride and no more flicks happening. But I think a few also reported that the 1.5 didn’t fix the ankle-flickability. @Mike Sacristan, isn’t your stable 16X made too early to be a 1.5?

Anyway, there were several videos and comments earlier on confirming the ankle flicks, so the flickability/faceplantability is definitely a widespread issue, not just a few faulty units. I do wish we’d find out for good wether the ”stable” 16X’s are inherently more stable at top speed, could it actually be up to the great variances in people’s riding behaviour.

Wow, long time since I wrote something in here but people around commented on this cut out and I had to read about it.

Well for science, I would gladly lend out my wheel to my friend @Mike Sacristan if you’d like a comparison and mike would be up for it. It’s also the first batch. Even first in Sweden, lol

I have stayed mostly under 43km/h... when riding. Average is probably 35-40.

No issue at all. Started with soft mode the first month or two but have changed to soft since then. 
Absolutely love everything about it but got a bit concerned when reading about this.

I doubt though that a wheel will start behaving strange suddenly if you already have a long total range on it and have tried the different conditions and speeds with it. 
Still running v1.05 fw .

 

Mike , call me if you want to try it out (or whatsup text)cause I will not be watching this everyday .

 

Also sorry for the accident, hope you recover fast. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Azze80

[Mike Sacristan]

Alrighty I just went out for a ride to do some testing and I take it back... I could make the 16X dip.
The technique was very specific and requires a certain timing. It isn't strength related but timing related.

I was about 76v which tends to give me soft tilt-back at 45 kmh.
Riding weight 70kg. +1C snow and slush.
I was going down a long gentle slope.

I tried pushing the soft tilt-back but couldn't press through.
Jerked the wheel back and forth between my legs and still no result.
Tried pushing quickly and forcefully with no result.
Pushed my heels down and then very quickly pushed with the balls of my feet and there I got the pedal dip.
So it was a very fast floaty snappy motion.
I was doing a bit over 45 kmh because of the decline.

I rode a bit further but voltage was now so low that soft tilt-back hit before 45 kmh.
I tried flicking on soft tilt-back but I got an 88% alarm.
Kept riding down to 71V with the wheel throttling more and more and could not replicate pedal dips with ankle flicks.

@photorph do you purposefully have to do the same similar technique or do you get pedal dipping above 45 kmh "by accident"?

The ankle flick is so specific to the technique it seems more like a timing bug in firmware more than a power related one.

[travsformation]

On 12/28/2019 at 5:49 PM, mrelwood said:

ankle flickability

[RoadRunner]

Shit, the ankle flick is back. 

[travsformation]

9 hours ago, RoadRunner said:

Shit, the ankle flick is back. 

It's the EUC version of the Harlem Shake

(although I must admit, ankle flicking or not, I'm happy to be part of a community where no one's doing the Floss...) [Edit: that I know of]

Edited December 30, 2019 by travsformation

[Seba]

On 12/28/2019 at 5:11 AM, houseofjob said:

.... oh, and that "2200 watt" IMHO is just marketing, if they can't fully realize that potential with their firmware and engineering.

+1. This is just 200 W of difference. And we see that KS-18XL with "only" 2000 W performs no worse that mighty 2200 W KS-16X in terms of speed... Anyone heard about KS-18XL cutouts? Increased power is mostly a marketing thing. Just take a look at Ninebot Z-series. Z6, Z8 and Z10 differ in output power but this is all about software limitation - motor and controller are the same in all three EUCs. And there is no difference in battery load capability between Z8 and Z10 - they share the same configuration, the only difference is in capacity.

[Aneta]

17 minutes ago, Seba said:

+1. This is just 200 W of difference. And we see that KS-18XL with "only" 2000 W performs no worse that mighty 2200 W KS-16X in terms of speed... Anyone heard about KS-18XL cutouts? Increased power is mostly a marketing thing. Just take a look at Ninebot Z-series. Z6, Z8 and Z10 differ in output power but this is all about software limitation - motor and controller are the same in all three EUCs. And there is no difference in battery load capability between Z8 and Z10 - they share the same configuration, the only difference is in capacity.

The magnet width did increase by 10%, though, from 27 to 30mm. So, for given phase current, the torque should increase by 10%, which means 10% increase in mechanical power at the same speed.

[alex5454]

do you think after 1.0.7 kingsong is working on a new firmware? is there room for improvement? reduce the cutoffs. I have set tilt back to 40km / H on KS16X (I hope to sleep peacefully). 

Edited December 30, 2019 by alex5454

[travsformation]

6 hours ago, Seba said:

And we see that KS-18XL with "only" 2000 W performs no worse that mighty 2200 W KS-16X in terms of speed... Anyone heard about KS-18XL cutouts?

It seems (I have no hard data to back this assumption) that the 16X cutouts are all related to torque delivery, which I'd always assumed was firmware-related. But based on what @Aneta says:

5 hours ago, Aneta said:

The magnet width did increase by 10%, though, from 27 to 30mm. So, for given phase current, the torque should increase by 10%, which means 10% increase in mechanical power at the same speed.

Same battery capacity but 10% increase in (mechanical) torque/power...could explain a few things. Is the 16X's board enough of an improvement to handle the difference? Where do you guys reckon the issues stem from: battery, board or firmware? Or too hasty a release and bad balance of all of the aforementioned?

And more importantly...it's utter BS that we're playing "guess the cause of the flaw" on a forum and receiving ZERO info from the manufacturer...

[eUNIty]

Doesnt the new batches of 18xl have the same 2200w motor as 16x? I wonder if theres any cutouts so far?

[Seba]

9 hours ago, Aneta said:

The magnet width did increase by 10%, though, from 27 to 30mm. So, for given phase current, the torque should increase by 10%, which means 10% increase in mechanical power at the same speed.

Increase in magnet width while keeping the current constant will decrease magnetic flux. Torque will remain the same. But with larger magnet we could use coils wound with thicker wire. This would allow us to use higher currents resulting in higher torque. Kv however won't change, so motor performance near its top speed will remain basically the same. And this is the problem KS-16X users have - lack of torque at high speeds. What is more, increasing the size of the motor usually translates into increase of coils inductance. This in turn decrease performance as the speed increases.

But all this is only theory. Without detailed knowledge of KS-16X build and operation details (controller circuit diagram, software algorithm details, motor build details etc.) we can only speculate. I think KS knows best what to do and they are working on fixing this. I hope it won't require any hardware changes to already sold KS-16X.

[photorph]

On 12/29/2019 at 7:40 AM, Mike Sacristan said:

@photorph do you purposefully have to do the same similar technique or do you get pedal dipping above 45 kmh "by accident"?

The ankle flick is so specific to the technique it seems more like a timing bug in firmware more than a power related one.

I got intentionally did the dipping in the video, but my cutout was unintentional.  Just acceleration from 26 and at 27 ish it dipped and kept on dipping till I was on the floor ha.  

 

10 hours ago, alex5454 said:

do you think after 1.0.7 kingsong is working on a new firmware? is there room for improvement? reduce the cutoffs. I have set tilt back to 40km / H on KS16X (I hope to sleep peacefully). 

At this limit, you will be 100% okay.  40 km/h is no problem.  

 

1 hour ago, Seba said:

But all this is only theory. Without detailed knowledge of KS-16X build and operation details (controller circuit diagram, software algorithm details, motor build details etc.) we can only speculate. I think KS knows best what to do and they are working on fixing this. I hope it won't require any hardware changes to already sold KS-16X.

KS 16X has already had a few hardware changes like a change in design in the control board, and I have a feeling their may be more.