Another KS 16X cut off - don't ride KS16X at the higher speeds! (gross photo warning)

[Mike Sacristan]

25 minutes ago, photorph said:

I got intentionally did the dipping in the video, but my cutout was unintentional.  Just acceleration from 26 and at 27 ish it dipped and kept on dipping till I was on the floor ha.  

Haha yeah I get it. So the pedals got soft then and dipped forward? Quickly or slowly? Man that must have been disorienting as hell.
So it sounds like it basically ran out of power and could no longer hold itself upright.

Yesterday I was riding out in crazy winds and it was easy to confuse the harder gusts of winds with soft tilt-back. I realised then that I should back off a little.
Are you 100% sensitive to your soft tilt-back?

Sorry for all the questions and if some of them seem like they are repeating. I am merely asking to try to see if it was a random event that came out of the blue or if there is something that can be done as a rider to prevent this (besides setting max speed to 40-45kmh).

Thanks again for sharing!

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

I'm happy to be part of a community where no one's doing the Floss...) [Edit: that I know of]

I can admit that I tried it once. Felt stupid enough not to try it the second time...

 

17 hours ago, eUNIty said:

Doesnt the new batches of 18xl have the same 2200w motor as 16x? I wonder if theres any cutouts so far?

Not that I’ve heard of any, but it seems they have started to lower the top speed at 50% battery instead of 25% battery in the new firmware for the 2200W 18XL motor. Either they know/are afraid that the new motor has the same 16X issue, or they are just showing us the finger.

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by mrelwood

[photorph]

23 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Haha yeah I get it. So the pedals got soft then and dipped forward? Quickly or slowly? Man that must have been disorienting as hell.
So it sounds like it basically ran out of power and could no longer hold itself upright.

Yesterday I was riding out in crazy winds and it was easy to confuse the harder gusts of winds with soft tilt-back. I realised then that I should back off a little.
Are you 100% sensitive to your soft tilt-back?

Sorry for all the questions and if some of them seem like they are repeating. I am merely asking to try to see if it was a random event that came out of the blue or if there is something that can be done as a rider to prevent this (besides setting max speed to 40-45kmh).

Thanks again for sharing!

Pedals dipped forward slowly and then very quickly after that.  It seemed like it just ran out of power.  I did not have any soft tiltback, and my hard tiltback was set to 50 so I cut off about 4-5 kph before that.  I cannot attribute this to rider error, or at the very least I can say I would have never cut out on the MSX/Nikola riding the exact same way I was on the KS16x.  I do know this wheel has cut out on others before, more than just what is shown on the forum. 

It is true that people use their heart when buying because despite a whole thread of kingsong 16X issues spanning multiple pages, this is one of the best selling wheels in the country.

I still love this wheel, but there's some trust issues beyond certain speeds now.  I have a new control board for it, which apparently according to @redfoxdude does not resolve the lack of power/dipping issue/potential cut out issue.  Will I be brave enough to test that again?  Likely not. 

The question is are you testing it for a pedal dip appropriately at higher speeds?  Likely not because somewhere in your mind you know that there can potentially be a cut off and that will be preventing you from putting a bit of force in the ankle flick at higher speed (rightfully so).

[Mike Sacristan]

1 hour ago, photorph said:

Pedals dipped forward slowly and then very quickly after that.  It seemed like it just ran out of power.  I did not have any soft tiltback, and my hard tiltback was set to 50 so I cut off about 4-5 kph before that.  I cannot attribute this to rider error, or at the very least I can say I would have never cut out on the MSX/Nikola riding the exact same way I was on the KS16x.  I do know this wheel has cut out on others before, more than just what is shown on the forum. 

I have my "warping speed" at 50 as well. On that setting it will just hit whenever I ask the wheel for too much. So I can get hard tilt-back at 45 kmh. So you simply got no tilt-back and the wheel let you ride yourself to death á la Gotway but with a more severe power loss. This wheel has been a dangerous wheel since day one and a wheel I very rarely recommend to others unless they are okay with the risks... which imo are not worth it. A wheel should not fail at it's primary job = keeping upright. I trust my 16X but that is my 16X in particular as it has proven itself to me.

1 hour ago, photorph said:

It is true that people use their heart when buying because despite a whole thread of kingsong 16X issues spanning multiple pages, this is one of the best selling wheels in the country.

I still love this wheel, but there's some trust issues beyond certain speeds now.  I have a new control board for it, which apparently according to @redfoxdude does not resolve the lack of power/dipping issue/potential cut out issue.  Will I be brave enough to test that again?  Likely not. 

The question is are you testing it for a pedal dip appropriately at higher speeds?  Likely not because somewhere in your mind you know that there can potentially be a cut off and that will be preventing you from putting a bit of force in the ankle flick at higher speed (rightfully so).

Yeah and I wonder why. It's basically just another 84v 1554Wh wheel. They are all the same but different. The 16X is quite expensive and the only thing that makes up for it are abstract things like "feel".

I did get it to pedal dip the other day after writing here. At slightly above 45 kmh. I have put plenty of force into the pedals before at speeds above 45 kmh but the ankle flick required a very specific technique for me to pull off. I could probably get it consistently with more practice. I let Monika (my wife) ride it yesterday and she really enjoyed it. So she will be riding it for a while and I will be on the MSX again. She hit a top speed of 46.7kmh yesterday and hit 45kmh a few times. No problems and she felt safe and confident on the wheel. Her natural speed is more between 35 and 40 though. I just really really hope it never cuts out on her. 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

41 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I let Monika (my wife) ride it yesterday and she really enjoyed it. So she will be riding it for a while and I will be on the MSX again. She hit a top speed of 46.7kmh yesterday and hit 45kmh a few times. No problems and she felt safe and confident on the wheel. Her natural speed is more between 35 and 40 though. I just really really hope it never cuts out on her. 

Oh Mike, I hope your wife doesn't show up on the forums and read all this. 

[Mike Sacristan]

4 hours ago, buell47 said:

Oh Mike, I hope your wife doesn't show up on the forums and read all this. 

Haha. 

I have kept her up to dat regarding overleaning, cut-offs, etc and when we were riding yesterday I asked several times if the experienced soft tilt-back, alarms, etc.
But yeah... scary business when it's someone else ass on the line.

[travsformation]

2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

But yeah... scary business when it's someone else ass on the line.

And someone who can dictate that you'll be sleeping on the couch / in the dog's house for a few weeks if something goes wrong...

[Roger Smith]

I wonder how you guys still use this trash of a wheel after all those problems and the waterproofing being totally inexistant (total joke) especially knowing the price of this toy. Just send back this crap and let's make them loose money as they make people loose time and body parts. We shouldn't have to be there geeking to find a way of using an extremely expensive finished product safely. 

[photorph]

And the cutouts keep happening, when will kingsong lower the limit here.

[EvoKnvl]

 

2 hours ago, photorph said:

And the cutouts keep happening, when will kingsong lower the limit here.

 

Is that the guy who wasn't wearing any gear and has about a month of experience?  Could it just been him asking for more acceleration that it had at the top?

[Unventor]

Well I can't say I am supprised. Some people just have to live on the edge. I guess that is the price KS will pay for trying to follow people that should have bouht a gw wheel instead. 

To me it is like people forgot the basics of speed in real world and they think they can drive like in a game and get away with it.Now we have seen enough reports here for people to set the limit on the wheel without KS have to limit the wheel. Personally I set my warning at 35kmh and tiltback at 40kmh. Since I rarely go faster that 35kmh I never hit warnings. 

For the furtre I can only say if you plan on going to the limits and demand speed over anything else, just don't buy anything else that gw. Or you might need to rething what a crash will have of impact on your life both short and long term. 

I prefer to ride, I don't want to be in rehab for months. And I need to work so long term sickleave will not pay my bills. I ride full mc levl geared up despite I only ride at 30ish kmh adverage. Some might think this is silly. But When I had my accident at 25 kmh that dislocated my shoulder it proved to be the smart choice to me. 

[Aneta]

Didn't this person know that 16X cuts off at 30mph, seeing that they posted their incident on electricunicycle.org "something" (telegram? I don't know what's that app the screenshot is of)

[EvoKnvl]

9 hours ago, Aneta said:

Didn't this person know that 16X cuts off at 30mph, seeing that they posted their incident on electricunicycle.org "something" (telegram? I don't know what's that app the screenshot is of)

It was on facebook.

[DjPanJan]

Here Denis Hagov speak about fresh February 2020 Cut out/Overlean his friend timestamp 16:30

 

[NYCandyMan]

So today I finally got to push the ks16x to see what it can do, 1st of all I am 270lbs, so not light on the wheel, I am not expecting to get any distance on it as I know about 30 to 40 miles will be my limit compared to the z10, 16x flies! I have no trouble getting to 31.5mph wish it could go faster, I am guessing I have the latest update as of 4.25.2020, I did 8 miles of ups and downs with maybe 2 stops, ate up 30%of battery, which was good, I still had 5 miles to go and another 13 to 14 to come back, it was smooth all the way, had no trouble speeding up or slowing down, was very comfortable, I am still having trouble making short turns with it, but noticed that i can make nice long turns with it, z10 can turn on a dime, it was short and wide 4", this one is taller and narrow 3" wheel, after the ride, I still had 30% battery left over and I covered about 28 to 29 miles, the problem I did have was after 31mph it would tilt back and began to beep, I kept pushing it, but I wonder if anyone has found a way to remove those alarms or to change alarm to a higher speed?

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, NYCandyMan said:

So today I finally got to push the ks16x to see what it can do, 1st of all I am 270lbs, so not light on the wheel, I am not expecting to get any distance on it as I know about 30 to 40 miles will be my limit compared to the z10, 16x flies! I have no trouble getting to 31.5mph wish it could go faster, I am guessing I have the latest update as of 4.25.2020, I did 8 miles of ups and downs with maybe 2 stops, ate up 30%of battery, which was good, I still had 5 miles to go and another 13 to 14 to come back, it was smooth all the way, had no trouble speeding up or slowing down, was very comfortable, I am still having trouble making short turns with it, but noticed that i can make nice long turns with it, z10 can turn on a dime, it was short and wide 4", this one is taller and narrow 3" wheel, after the ride, I still had 30% battery left over and I covered about 28 to 29 miles, the problem I did have was after 31mph it would tilt back and began to beep, I kept pushing it, but I wonder if anyone has found a way to remove those alarms or to change alarm to a higher speed?

Why do you think those alarms are there? 

[.....]

1 hour ago, NYCandyMan said:

the problem I did have was after 31mph it would tilt back and began to beep, I kept pushing it, but I wonder if anyone has found a way to remove those alarms or to change alarm to a higher speed?

You're asking for trouble. You are doing EXACTLY what they are trying to stop you from doing(at 270lbs nonetheless). If these alarms weren't in place, your post would more than likely be an 'incident report' instead. Respect the beep! If you want more, sadly, you have to go bigger or wait for battery tech to improve. Im not trying to be a d**k, but your question seems a little dangerous, and I'm not a worry type of guy. I wish mine went further and faster, but they don't. Your question DOES give me confidence that KS is easily protecting me from myself at a mere 135lbs on my 18L.

Edited April 26, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[DjPanJan]

7 hours ago, NYCandyMan said:

So today I finally got to push the ks16x to see what it can do, 1st of all I am 270lbs, so not light on the wheel, I am not expecting to get any distance on it as I know about 30 to 40 miles will be my limit compared to the z10, 16x flies! I have no trouble getting to 31.5mph wish it could go faster, I am guessing I have the latest update as of 4.25.2020, I did 8 miles of ups and downs with maybe 2 stops, ate up 30%of battery, which was good, I still had 5 miles to go and another 13 to 14 to come back, it was smooth all the way, had no trouble speeding up or slowing down, was very comfortable, I am still having trouble making short turns with it, but noticed that i can make nice long turns with it, z10 can turn on a dime, it was short and wide 4", this one is taller and narrow 3" wheel, after the ride, I still had 30% battery left over and I covered about 28 to 29 miles, the problem I did have was after 31mph it would tilt back and began to beep, I kept pushing it, but I wonder if anyone has found a way to remove those alarms or to change alarm to a higher speed?

Im on you weight side. My max speed = tiltback is 43Km/h please decelerate 40 km/h

30% battery for me is max speed 28km/h set by Eucworld alarms.

You play with fire. For more speed inflate you tire more 40 Psi minimal because weight. If you reach you limits and you are inmortall buy gotway MSX / MSP.

In my mind KS16X is 45km/h EUC focused on agility and aceleration/torque. Speed is gotway EUC.

 

[Mike Sacristan]

7 hours ago, NYCandyMan said:

So today I finally got to push the ks16x to see what it can do, 1st of all I am 270lbs, so not light on the wheel, I am not expecting to get any distance on it as I know about 30 to 40 miles will be my limit compared to the z10, 16x flies! I have no trouble getting to 31.5mph wish it could go faster, I am guessing I have the latest update as of 4.25.2020, I did 8 miles of ups and downs with maybe 2 stops, ate up 30%of battery, which was good, I still had 5 miles to go and another 13 to 14 to come back, it was smooth all the way, had no trouble speeding up or slowing down, was very comfortable, I am still having trouble making short turns with it, but noticed that i can make nice long turns with it, z10 can turn on a dime, it was short and wide 4", this one is taller and narrow 3" wheel, after the ride, I still had 30% battery left over and I covered about 28 to 29 miles, the problem I did have was after 31mph it would tilt back and began to beep, I kept pushing it, but I wonder if anyone has found a way to remove those alarms or to change alarm to a higher speed?

Glad to hear you are enjoying the 16X. At 28mph and above it is performing close to the max of it's ability. At this point we should ask it for less instead of asking it for more.

It is totally fine to gently push it to max speed and soft tilt-back. Just remember that no means NO. There are no ifs and buts here. The 16X can be pushed but it can't be pushed forever... especially not buy a heavy guy like you. Even I am wary of pushing aggressively beyond 28mph and I weigh almost half as much as you do.

The consequence of pushing it too hard will be a quick 4 beep alarm, followed but a hard tilt-back.
Or alternately:
It doing all of those things at the same time, getting overpowered and cutting power to the motor.

With zippy wheels comes zippy responsibility.

[WI_Hedgehog]

It's been kind of funny to read through the whole cutout thread and then see a guy want to lempt fate, like he didn't read any of the KS cutout reports over the last year he's been a member. Well, at least the warning is at the forefront...

So, to his question, is there any way to bypass the KS speed limiter? On this wheel it would be a bad idea, but on the Chaos 18 Excel* maybe it's a good idea?

For years people wondered if the miniPRO speed limiter could be bypassed, and finally it has been via Bluetooth firmware upgrade. What is the mechanism that limits King Song? 

*KS-18XL 

[Chriull]

12 minutes ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

So, to his question, is there any way to bypass the KS speed limiter?

Technically KS has no speed limiter - it only tilts back at a certain maximum (and to some extent) setable speed.

If one really want (and is "acrobatic" enough) one can "ride the tiltback" and go to higher speeds! ...until one overleans hitting the systems physical limits...

14 minutes ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

What is the mechanism that limits King Song? 

The tiltback programmed in firmware.

So like with the miniPro by some modded firmware this could be removed - but i never heard of any mod existing...

[Mike Sacristan]

Has anyone tried to raise the limit beyond 50 kmh with Soft Tuner? I slid it all the way to 60. The app disconnected from the wheel.
Maybe I should try a more conservative number...

[svenomous]

If I try to set the speed too high in SoftTuner on my 18XL running 2.02, the setting seems to apply and the wheel beeps as if it accepted it, but if I return to the same screen the slider has reset to 45kmh.  Actually, I think the 18XL is supposed to allow up to 50kmh, so I'm not sure why 45, but in any case the app behavior for me is not that it disconnects or does anything weird, but it also doesn't tell me that I entered a value beyond the allowable range, it just silently rejects it.

[Mike Sacristan]

6 minutes ago, svenomous said:

If I try to set the speed too high in SoftTuner on my 18XL running 2.02, the setting seems to apply and the wheel beeps as if it accepted it, but if I return to the same screen the slider has reset to 45kmh.  Actually, I think the 18XL is supposed to allow up to 50kmh, so I'm not sure why 45, but in any case the app behavior for me is not that it disconnects or does anything weird, but it also doesn't tell me that I entered a value beyond the allowable range, it just silently rejects it.

Thanks for letting me know.

Correct the 18XL allows 50 kmh. I guess it defaulting to 45 is punishment for being greedy haha.
I was both hopeful and scared at the same time when I moved the slider to 60 kmh. 

[svenomous]

Quick follow-up, as my own post prompted me to go to the garage and check what's up with the speed setting.  I found that if (using the SoftTuner app) I try to set the speed to 60 (top of slider), the setting is completely ignored and remains at what it was previously, with no error message.  The only way to know that the setting was ignored is to immediately return to the speed settings page and see the values.  So what happened to make me think that 45 was the max is that I had it set to 45 and tried to scrub the slider up to 60, and then I saw it was at 45 and assumed that 45 was the max, but not so, so excuse my slight misinformation in my previous post.  If I set 50 on my 18XL, it works.  If I set 51 or anything higher, it gets ignored and the previous setting remains.  So, the setting works as it should, except for there being no feedback when an invalid value is provided.