KS18XL 2200W motor

[Rywokast]

3 hours ago, Patton250 said:

My guess is the people that are having problems didn’t download the firmware from the soft tuner app. Or if they did they didn’t pick the 18HL firmware. I could be wrong as I’m wrong quite often and if you don’t believe me then ask my wife. Lol. But that would be my guess.

i got the 18LH firmware, multiple times lol

[Asphalt]

I'm pretty sure @Rywokast knows what he's doing 

My theory is that this comes down to some sort of hardware-firmware incompatibility. The way Kingsong and Gotway do incremental upgrades between batches of the same model, makes it a mess trying to sort out why things aren't working properly. For example, in the 18XL v1 there were:

• pedal color and size upgrades
• inner shell material and structural upgrades
• trolley handle rack attachment upgrades
• trolley handle sensor upgrades
• headlight upgrades
• control board upgrade to v1.3

I hope we can collect some data on the successfulness of people upgrading their 18XL from the various control boards versions:

• v1.0
• v1.1
• v1.2
• v1.3

 

[Rywokast]

9 minutes ago, Asphalt said:

I'm pretty sure @Rywokast knows what he's doing 

My theory is that this comes down to some sort of hardware-firmware incompatibility. The way Kingsong and Gotway do incremental upgrades between batches of the same model, makes it a mess trying to sort out why things aren't working properly. For example, in the 18XL v1 there were:

• pedal color and size upgrades
• inner shell material and structural upgrades
• trolley handle rack attachment upgrades
• trolley handle sensor upgrades
• headlight upgrades
• control board upgrade to v1.3

I hope we can collect some data on the successfulness of people upgrading their 18XL from the various control boards versions:

• v1.0
• v1.1
• v1.2
• v1.3

 

thanks, yea its not just black and white who knows what they could have changed during minor iterations, the situation is much worse with gotway who cant do firmware upgrades and admit to not even knowing wtf is going on because there are so many different iterations, it seems problems can arise from something as simple as shifting hardware around or changing it slightly.. unfortunately it seems there is nowhere near enough internal testing done by ANY euc manufacturer as they are all always doing iterative upgrades or changes.. it seems to be a bit of a crapshoot unfortunately and no one ever learns from their mistakes.. the 16X seems to be plagued by more things than the 18 ever was

 

[Jason McNeil]

6 hours ago, Asphalt said:

The control board version should be printed on the control board.

I just hope that the new firmware is compatible with all versions of the control board.

According to KS source, both variants of the KS board are compatible with the CX/2200W motor, the material factor is the LH firmware. 

 

[Patton250]

6 hours ago, Asphalt said:

I'm pretty sure @Rywokast knows what he's doing 

My theory is that this comes down to some sort of hardware-firmware incompatibility. The way Kingsong and Gotway do incremental upgrades between batches of the same model, makes it a mess trying to sort out why things aren't working properly. For example, in the 18XL v1 there were:

• pedal color and size upgrades
• inner shell material and structural upgrades
• trolley handle rack attachment upgrades
• trolley handle sensor upgrades
• headlight upgrades
• control board upgrade to v1.3

I hope we can collect some data on the successfulness of people upgrading their 18XL from the various control boards versions:

• v1.0
• v1.1
• v1.2
• v1.3

 

Just out of curiosity so I don’t ever make the mistake again what exactly did I say that made you think I said he doesn’t know what he’s doing?

[Asphalt]

11 hours ago, Patton250 said:

My guess is the people that are having problems didn’t download the firmware from the soft tuner app. Or if they did they didn’t pick the 18HL firmware. I could be wrong as I’m wrong quite often and if you don’t believe me then ask my wife. Lol. But that would be my guess.

@Patton250 Just a reference to the above statement, since Rywokast was one of the people having problems.

He's helped me out many times and his experience with wheels runs deep, so I give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to installing the proper 18LH firmware.

[Patton250]

23 minutes ago, Asphalt said:

@Patton250 Just a reference to the above statement, since Rywokast was one of the people having problems.

He's helped me out many times and his experience with wheels runs deep, so I give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to installing the proper 18LH firmware.

I apologize but I think you didn’t understand my question. You made it sound as though I said he didn’t know what he was doing and then you stepped in to save his honor in a way. :-). I was looking for an explanation as to my exact wording that triggered your thought process having to do with him specifically.  I suppose at this point it doesn’t matter. That’s not what I originally intended to relay so I’m sorry you misunderstood me.

[Flying W]

@Patton250, if your leaking air is slow try some slime (or slime like product) to fix it. I've pulled some things out of my tires and pumped em back up (like in @Marty Backe's video on fixing a tire with slime) and it worked. 

It wont fix valve stem cuts or slashes but small holes work just fine. 

I've also pinched tubes before when changing tires and it isnt cool having to take it apart a second time 

[Meserias]

there any way to see control board version number without opening the wheel ... ?

[Rywokast]

9 hours ago, Meserias said:

there any way to see control board version number without opening the wheel ... ?

nope

[The Fat Unicyclist]

16 hours ago, Meserias said:

there any way to see control board version number without opening the wheel ... ?

What @Rywokast said... Nope!

But we have a rough idea of when the factory switched them out, so if you can share your serial number then we can come up with one of the following;

1. Your date is too early, so you will most likely have a v1.2 (which i believe was the board in the first production batch).
2. Your date is way later, so should be a v1.3.
3. You are dated right in the change window, so need to find yourself a screwdriver...

[brockj]

I just completed the motor upgrade to my "V1" wheel and flashed the KS 18LH v1.00 firmware onto it.

I rode around my neighborhood for a bit and ran some errands. I live in an urban area with very few smooth or flat streets, so I didn't push the speed too much, no higher than 25mph (~40km/h).

So far it has been all upsides:

- Better acceleration (20% sounds about right)

- A little more torque (even though its not as nimble as a 3" wheel, I feel more nimble at slower speeds)

- The characteristic 18xl whine is gone. Not surprisingly, the motor sounds a bit like my friend's 16X (that I borrowed for a day-- take my memory with a grain of salt).

For reference, my control board is v1.3.

[Patton250]

8 hours ago, brockj said:

I just completed the motor upgrade to my "V1" wheel and flashed the KS 18LH v1.00 firmware onto it.

I rode around my neighborhood for a bit and ran some errands. I live in an urban area with very few smooth or flat streets, so I didn't push the speed too much, no higher than 25mph (~40km/h).

So far it has been all upsides:

- Better acceleration (20% sounds about right)

- A little more torque (even though its not as nimble as a 3" wheel, I feel more nimble at slower speeds)

- The characteristic 18xl whine is gone. Not surprisingly, the motor sounds a bit like my friend's 16X (that I borrowed for a day-- take my memory with a grain of salt).

For reference, my control board is v1.3.

Thanks for that report. I was beginning to think some here thought that I might be on some sort of methamphetamines or something for saying the same thing about my 18XL motor change. LOL

[andress]

@Rywokast Just out of curiosity did you try to run the old motor with the new firmware?

[Rywokast]

6 hours ago, andress said:

@Rywokast Just out of curiosity did you try to run the old motor with the new firmware?

I did not, I wouldn't think that it would be compatible.. but now that you say it I wonder what would happen haha

[Jonesq]

The motor upgrade is def worth it. I had Ewheels do mine since I also had some additional repairs I needed to do anyways and I was given a very reasonable price for labor. 

My 18XL feels like a brand new wheel! The quieter motor made a bigger difference than I would've expected. It's so quiet! I didn't realize how nice it was to not hear that whine until I no longer had to listen to it.

I think I'd agree with the others about the torque increase. 20% seems fair. It feels quicker and smoother.

I didn't have any issues with weird pedal dip either. I went for a 20 mi ride and rode it pretty hard and never had a single issue. 

I would recommend this upgrade, especially at the current price.

[brockj]

4 hours ago, Jonesq said:

It's so quiet! I didn't realize how nice it was to not hear that whine until I no longer had to listen to it.

Weirdly I kind of miss the old whine. It was kind of cute 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

3 hours ago, brockj said:

Weirdly I kind of miss the old whine. It was kind of cute 

I know... Right?

I use the pitch of the whine (and the "cadence" of a slightly off-centre tyre) to judge my speed.   

[RoadRunner]

4 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

I know... Right?

I use the pitch of the whine (and the "cadence" of a slightly off-centre tyre) to judge my speed.   

Thats exactly what i do.

[Asphalt]

It took me 4.5-hours to upgrade the motor - the first time I've ever opened up the wheel. Much sweat and many tears later, I have a working wheel!

I upgraded from a first-gen 18XL (black inner case, old ball-sack fender) running firmware 18L v1.11.

I've never tried firmware 18L v1.13, so I'm not sure how much of my impressions are based off the new hardware or firmware.

The upgrade included the 2200W motor and firmware 18LH v1.00

Motor Noise

• I still hear motor whine, but it's not as high-pitch.
• When still, the wheel is a little bit quieter, but far from silent.
• At high speed you can still hear motor whine, but it's not as piercing.

Acceleration

• Low-end torque has improved.
• The wheel feels softer but snappier.
• Tested in Experient mode.
• When you start to accelerate there is initially a little bit more cushion/delayed response, but then the wheel quickly accelerates - definitely faster than the 2000W motor running 18L v1.11.
• Doing pendulums was easier.
• I had less fatigue after doing a 40 km ride. Ended up riding an extra 10 km beyond my usual route because I was feeling so good.
• Accelerating from 0 kph to ~40 kph required less effort.
• Accelerating from ~40 kph to 50 kph felt like it required more effort.

Top Speed

• It felt like hitting top speed required more effort.
• The Kingsong app reported a top speed of 51 kph (avg 32 kph)
• Strava (which usually over-estimates top speed) reported 48 kph (avg 26 kph)
• With firmware 18L v1.11 I was able to hit and hold 50 kph with about 10% less effort. I'm assuming this is due to Kingsong being conservative with firmware 18LH v1.00. With a more powerful motor, but fixed top speed, it's reassuring to think that there is an increased margin of safety. That said, it would be a pleasant surprise if Kingsong bumped up the top speed by 1 or 2 kph - even if just for psychological or marketing benefits.

Alarms

• Firmware 18LH v1.00 has changed the speed alarm from a gentleman saying "Please decelerate", to beeps - which I prefer, but I'm not sure what the beeps mean (King song, please provide a reference chart)
• Alarm settings:
• Alarm 1 = 0
• Alarm 2 = 0 
• Alarm 3 = 49 kph
• Tiltback = 50 kph
• When pushing for top speed I heard a 5-beep alarm, I'm assuming this was Alarm 3.
• As the battery got down to around 50% I was getting 3-beep alarms and 1-beep alarms. I'm not sure what these meant because they were at around 40-45 kph.
• Ambient temperature 6-degrees Celsius.

Braking

• This was the most pleasant surprise. Braking is stronger. You can brake harder before encountering wobble. Definitely inspires more confidence when riding fast.

Carving

• Carving was much more fun, which may have been due to a few factors:
• New tire being extra grippy
• New firmware adding a touch of softness
• Stronger motor providing improved acceleration out of carves

Vibrations

• At low speed, the transition between magnets can be felt as a micro bump or vibration. This is more pronounced with the 2200W motor. This could be due to wider magnets, messier coils, or firmware changes.
• At high speed there were no abnormal vibrations.

Recommendations

• Wheel manufacturers, please make your wheels easier to access and maintain.
• For securing the shell, instead of screws, please consider some sort of sliding latch mechanism like the way desktop computer panels are secured.
• Sell the motor upgrade with pre-installed pedal hangers
• Sliding the shell over the pedal hangers was a harrowing experience, with motor wires getting caught on the edge of the shell. There has to be a better way that doesn't expose the motor wires to damage.
• Provide a chart explaining what the beep alarms mean.
• Calibrate speed and distance reporting from your app - it currently overestimates both by 10-20%
• Improve acceleration from 40 to 50 kph.
• Increase top speed to 52 kph.
• When allowing for firmware updates, include instructions on how to do it properly. We should not have to scour YouTube to find out that the wheel needs to be laid on it's side before installing firmware updates.

Overall I am quite happy with the upgrade. My two main gripes with the 18XL have been addressed: acceleration and braking wobbles.

I feel that the 18XL now compares quite well to the 16X. Although the 18XL v2 doesn't accelerate quite as quickly as the 16X, the acceleration is now good. Combined with greater stability at high speed and easier maneuverability (less gyro feel) with the thinner tire, the 18XL makes a great cruiser and all-round wheel.

This upgrade makes my 18XL, not just a weekend wheel, but now a viable commuter able to deal with the acceleration and braking required in an urban setting; able to out-accelerate cars when needed and brake with confidence around unpredictable pedestrians and bikes.

[FlyboyEUC]

Alright, my goal is to install the new motor and a new control board this week. Are there any specialty tools I'll need? I have all the allen wrenches and screwdrivers necessary. Like will I need that white glue stuff? Also, for those who have already swapped out the motor or control board, do you have any tips or words of wisdom? Any help will be appreciated. @Marty Backe @The Fat Unicyclist @Asphalt @brockj

[Asphalt]

It took me about 4.5 hours from starting disassembly to riding again, so make sure you give yourself a good block of time. (It was the first time I'd taken apart the wheel)

I found using automotive trim removal tools helpful for getting the LED cover plates and padding off without damage.

Keep the screws organized. Even though they're the same gauge, the have different lengths between the LED screws and the screws under the padding.

A long allen wrench was helpful for getting leverage when unscrewing the pedal hangers - mine had been red Loctite applied in the factory. It's a good idea to reapply red Loctite on those screws when re-assembling.

The worst part is trying to install the shell back onto the motors - the motor wires can get chewed up pretty good where the pedal hangers slot over the shell. I'd recommend getting a second person to help you. Have some electrical tape handy if you need to do any repairs.

The correct silicone caulk is discussed in this thread:

It took a while, but I scraped off all the white caulk off the pedal hangers before reinstalling.

When mounting the pedal hangers back onto the axle, it's easy to mount it wrong.
You want to mount it on the green part, above the milled flat part.
I accidentally mounted it on the blue part, which caused the pedal hangers to not sit flat. 
Apparently there's a ring (the red part) that you have to remove from the old motor and reinstall on the new motor. This ring is supposed to prevent you from mounting on the blue part.
I didn't notice this ring on my old motor - so far I haven't had any issues, but time will tell. I'm really not looking forward to opening up the wheel again.

Good luck!

[Marty Backe]

8 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

Alright, my goal is to install the new motor and a new control board this week. Are there any specialty tools I'll need? I have all the allen wrenches and screwdrivers necessary. Like will I need that white glue stuff? Also, for those who have already swapped out the motor or control board, do you have any tips or words of wisdom? Any help will be appreciated. @Marty Backe @The Fat Unicyclist @Asphalt @brockj

It shouldn't take much longer than replacing an inner tube (which I've done on my 18XL). Maybe 2-hours. Most of the hard work will actually be installing the tube/tire on the wheel. Everything else is just snipping cable ties, etc. KingSong doesn't use the "white glue stuff" like Gotway does 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

12 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

Alright, my goal is to install the new motor and a new control board this week. Are there any specialty tools I'll need? I have all the allen wrenches and screwdrivers necessary. Like will I need that white glue stuff? Also, for those who have already swapped out the motor or control board, do you have any tips or words of wisdom? Any help will be appreciated. @Marty Backe @The Fat Unicyclist @Asphalt @brockj

@Asphalt and @Marty Backe have pretty much covered it all... But since you asked;

• I would plan for nearer 4 hours than 2, just because you will be double checking everything as you go.
• Once you have fitted the tube / tyre to the new motor, make sure it is seated well and spins without any "offset" - and beat it into place if you need to.
• The upholstery tools that @Asphalt mentioned are very worthwhile - they are softer than your wheel, so won't damage it like a screw-driver might. I use them religiously, something like theses - https://www.harborfreight.com/trim-and-molding-tool-set-5-pc-64126.html 

If you want to see the tools being used and how to know when a tyre is correctly positioned, I cover both of those in the video below...  It is for a tyre change on a 14S, but there are a lot of similarities in the dismantling (particularly for the side LED)  and the concept for positioning a tyre is generic too...

 

[Daniel Clopton]

I sent my wheel in to be repaired and they updated the firmware to the new 18LH version. It works much better now. Today though I did another motor change on a second 18XL and I can't find any information on how to update to the new firmware. I have both the standard Kingsong app as well as the Kingsong Debug app. Neither one gives me a new firmware option. Where do I find this mysterious new firmware?