KS18XL 2200W motor

[Chriull]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I don't know the details. The whine is produced by the motor coils vibrating in the PWM frequency of the motor control... well at least as far as I know. I always assumed they upped the frequency to something inaudible to get rid of the whine. But maybe it's a different mechanism like the modified wave forms or more glue.

 

45 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

My friend gooped the coils on his 16S with lacquer to get rid of the noise. Result? Zero difference. So, loose coil vibration has been debunked.

Exactly. Coil vibration was imho only with low quality coils vibrating in some ?switching mode supplies in gpu's/mb's? an issue where lacquering did help - with BLDC motors it's the torque ripple.

Edit: Every "torque ripple" - non continous torque from the motor makes the whole rim turn "non-continous" and produce by this vibrations = sound. Depending on the motor they can be with the commutation frequency, PWM frequency ?and some other influences?. The older GW and KS seem to have an PWM torque ripple...

4 hours ago, Aneta said:

I.e. sine-wave BLDC controllers make motors virtually silent, while square/trapeze make them more whiny.

There exist different motors - BLDC vs. PM(?A?)SM. Difference should be more or less the ?way the coils are wound? showing different Back EMF - PM BLDC generate trapezoid BEMF, PMSM sinusodial. Some papers are "strict" with this namings - some afair said naming is a bit vague...

However commutation has to be like the generated BEMF for the motor to run efficiently - googling for "BLDC torque ripple" gives many papers on how to reduce this (unwanted) torque ripple, since it decreases efficiency, is bad for the mechanics and produces noise.

Quote

The factory-made 18L/XL V2 (with the new motor) probably also have either a new controller, or new firmware specific to this motor. 

Would be interesting what was changed - if the old models/motors could be silenced with firmware (at least a bit) or if this silencing now happened just with a new motor type including the different fw for driving it.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Chriull

[LeLion74]

9 hours ago, Aneta said:

The factory-made 18L/XL V2 (with the new motor) probably also have either a new controller, or new firmware specific to this motor. Unless this motor's silence is caused by windings potted in compound...

Some informations about the new motor and controler here : https://ecodrift.ru/2019/10/23/novinka-na-sklade-ecodrift-kingsong-ks-18xl-v2-chto-izmenilos/

It's the second significative upgrade of the KS-18L/XL this year : https://ecodrift.ru/2019/07/22/kingsong-ks-18l-spisok-izmeneniy/

[Gaz Bon]

13 hours ago, Aneta said:

I'm not aware of any EUC manufacturers who make their own BLDC motors

This may be true but as to your previous statement just using some generic E bike wheel re-badged by KS was were my opinion differs.

[Meserias]

This whining sound could affect in time motor or electronics so we are prone to a deadly (!) cutout ?...
we should be really concerned about it ?

(I'm crazy probably and bit off...but...I like it !)

[Chriull]

43 minutes ago, Meserias said:

This whining sound could affect in time motor or electronics so we are prone to a deadly (!) cutout ?...
we should be really concerned about it ?

(I'm crazy probably and bit off...but...I like it !)

No. There is no danger or harm caused by the whine but "ringing ears"...

[Cuba Gonzalez]

14 hours ago, AtlasP said:

My buddy just got his brand new KS18XL with the new 2200W motor and not only does it look and feel amazing, but it's *completely silent*. Didn't the original 18XL motor have a noticeable whine like the smaller King Songs?

That's great news, I was hoping for a silent motor. Any other noticeable upgrades on the outside? Magnetic pedals maybe (like the new KS16X) or is it the same? Thanks!

[LeLion74]

1 hour ago, Cuba Gonzalez said:

I was hoping for a silent motor

I can confirm that the motor is really silent.

1 hour ago, Cuba Gonzalez said:

Any other noticeable upgrades on the outside

Seems not.

1 hour ago, Cuba Gonzalez said:

Magnetic pedals maybe

No, same pedals

[Blueblade]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

No. There is no danger or harm caused by the whine but "ringing ears"...

I don't know if its a high pitched whine, or just the device/rider appearing unusual, but lots of dogs seem to hate EUC's.  A neighbor dog that's been friendly to me several times before, charged at me when on my EUC, I stopped and jumped off as saw him approaching me, sounding and appearing like an attack was imminent.  He put his head towards the EUC in an aggressive manner (more interested in it than me), but did not bite or anything, maybe because it was stopped at that point.

Ever since, I am very apprehensive around dogs.

[Cuba Gonzalez]

49 minutes ago, Blueblade said:

I don't know if its a high pitched whine, or just the device/rider appearing unusual, but lots of dogs seem to hate EUC's.  

I'm pretty sure its the noise. I usually ride on a path through a wooded area and heard dogs start barking even though (or I think they don't) see me. In other cases I've come up behind a dog walker and the dog instantly turns around and starts going nuts...poor owners. Whatever it is, all dogs I've encountered act the same, go a little crazy. It's like a dog whistle. Maybe they are jealous and want an EUC for themselves   Let's see if the more silent wheel sets them off.

[meepmeepmayer]

I believe the sound has nothing to do with dog behavior.

My ACM has a whine and dogs are usually completely surprised by the thing if I overtake from behind. I used to think dogs have superb hearing and hear you before you even see them. Now I know better.

I guess some dogs just want to play or have some hunting reflex when they see you riding a EUC. Not sure if the sound plays a role at all. More the unexpected/unknown shape and movement, maybe?

[Asphalt]

5 hours ago, LeLion74 said:

Some informations about the new motor and controler here : https://ecodrift.ru/2019/10/23/novinka-na-sklade-ecodrift-kingsong-ks-18xl-v2-chto-izmenilos/

It's the second significative upgrade of the KS-18L/XL this year : https://ecodrift.ru/2019/07/22/kingsong-ks-18l-spisok-izmeneniy/

It's great that King Song are continuously improving their wheels, however the new motor and controller makes me question how they will handle firmware updates. Multiple firmwares targeting different hardware configurations? Or one firmware for all 18XL variants?

It'd be great if the new motor and controller allowed a top speed of 55 kph (34 mph).

I think the only other update I'd like to see is moving to a 3-inch wide tire. Perhaps on the KS-18XXL?

 

[Blueblade]

2 hours ago, Cuba Gonzalez said:

I'm pretty sure its the noise. I usually ride on a path through a wooded area and heard dogs start barking even though (or I think they don't) see me. In other cases I've come up behind a dog walker and the dog instantly turns around and starts going nuts...poor owners. Whatever it is, all dogs I've encountered act the same, go a little crazy. It's like a dog whistle. Maybe they are jealous and want an EUC for themselves   Let's see if the more silent wheel sets them off.

I should mention I ride a v8, without too much of a noticeable (to humans) sound- I do wonder if the quieter ones operate at a frequency above what humans hear, to be pleasing to us, but really annoying to dogs, like a dog whistle as you mention.

Some dogs seem much more tolerant of it, but I have seen many on a leash that REALLY dont like it, and as you mention seem to hear it before see it.

Some humans are also really annoyed by the KS whine where as many don't seem to mind it too much.

[Cuba Gonzalez]

1 hour ago, Asphalt said:

It's great that King Song are continuously improving their wheels, however the new motor and controller makes me question how they will handle firmware updates. Multiple firmwares targeting different hardware configurations? Or one firmware for all 18XL variants?

 

 

Great question.

[LeLion74]

1 hour ago, Cuba Gonzalez said:

3 hours ago, Asphalt said:

It's great that King Song are continuously improving their wheels, however the new motor and controller makes me question how they will handle firmware updates. Multiple firmwares targeting different hardware configurations? Or one firmware for all 18XL variants?

 

 

Great question.

Mine have firmware version 1.0, so it seems to be a new motor, new controler, and new firmware version...

 

[LeLion74]

Taken 2 weeks ago, still no update found  

Edited November 8, 2019 by LeLion74
Image

[Asphalt]

It looks like the model number is KS-18LH, so they must have different firmware to accommodate the new hardware.

 @Jason McNeil if you upgrade the motor of an KS-18XL v1, which firmware do you use?

Will you have to upgrade the control board as well?

[Rywokast]

9 hours ago, Blueblade said:

I don't know if its a high pitched whine, or just the device/rider appearing unusual, but lots of dogs seem to hate EUC's.  A neighbor dog that's been friendly to me several times before, charged at me when on my EUC, I stopped and jumped off as saw him approaching me, sounding and appearing like an attack was imminent.  He put his head towards the EUC in an aggressive manner (more interested in it than me), but did not bite or anything, maybe because it was stopped at that point.

Ever since, I am very apprehensive around dogs.

its a high pitched whine.. my young ears can hear it coming from every one of my eucs and a lot of electronic devices too.. though KS is the only one i can hear WHILE RIDING lol.. if i can hear it, surely its deafening to dogs

[LeLion74]

On the new engine it is still written 2000W. But this one seems to have more torque. In any case, it is really silent.

Edited November 8, 2019 by LeLion74
Image

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, LeLion74 said:

On the new engine it is still written 2000W. But this one seems to have more torque. In any case, it is really silent.

Fyi - your link is not to be seen. The link says something with ?googleusercontent? - links to google ?drive? or whatever are unfortionately not easy to share online (at least here)

 

[AtlasP]

Oh, one other thing which I haven't seen mentioned yet--my buddy's aforementioned new KS18XL has the same tire brand and identical tread as my Nik+ 100v. (Obviously not the same tire as the width is different, but everything else seems to be the same except the width.) I don't think this was the case with older 18XL's and if so this looks to be a positive change?

[Asphalt]

@AtlasP can your buddy with the new KS-18XL v2 / KS-18XLH identify when speed throttling occurs?

I'm curious if King Song has pushed it up to 50% battery like the KS-16X to accommodate the additional power requirements of the new motor, or if it's still 25% battery like the KS-18XL v1?

[LeLion74]

9 hours ago, Chriull said:

Fyi - your link is not to be seen. The link says something with ?googleusercontent? - links to google ?drive? or whatever are unfortionately not easy to share online (at least here)

Thanks, changed !

[brockj]

On 11/6/2019 at 4:39 PM, Rywokast said:

not that i have even been able to get the app to open for the last month anyways lmao.. 

@Rywokast I had this issue with android 10 on my Pixel. Downloading the app directly from kingsong.com helped get it to open (although it still crashes regularly like before )

[Rywokast]

15 minutes ago, brockj said:

@Rywokast I had this issue with android 10 on my Pixel. Downloading the app directly from kingsong.com helped get it to open (although it still crashes regularly like before )

ok ill try that mines from the play store.. ever since it last updated refuses to open EVER on any device lol.. pos, ill try from the site thanks

[mrelwood]

On 11/7/2019 at 6:32 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

I believe the sound has nothing to do with dog behavior.

A dog owner told me that dogs react as if they’re trying to save the rider from being taken by this evil thingy. I was told they react the same way to skateboards and even wheelchairs. The dogs don’t comprehend us Travelling Without Moving a limb. Maybe we should try wooshing our hands more?

 

On 11/7/2019 at 6:32 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

My ACM has a whine and dogs are usually completely surprised

 

On 11/7/2019 at 8:48 PM, Blueblade said:

v8, without too much of a noticeable (to humans) sound

 

21 hours ago, Rywokast said:

its a high pitched whine.. my young ears can hear it coming from every one of my eucs and a lot of electronic devices too..

 

21 hours ago, Rywokast said:

if i can hear it, surely its deafening to dogs

Like colours, all sounds are a combination of different wavelengths, different pitches. A ”perfect” red doesn’t really exist (in nature). Same goes for sound, all sounds include components of numerous other frequencies as well. I measured the 16S whine back in the day, and if I recall correctly, the most annoying part was a 5.5KHz spike, yet 8KHz and somewhere around 15KHz were nearly as loud or even louder. Human hearing is quite sensitive at 5.5K, so that’s the one that bugs us. 8K, (the letter ”S”) while not heard as loudly, only tends to diminish at around 60-70 yrs of age. But 15K (the ”old TV” whine) is difficult for all adults to hear unless specificly focusing.

I seem to recall dogs hearing up to 30-35KHz. I didn’t measure that high though, there might be something interesting looming beyond the human scope...

 

9 hours ago, AtlasP said:

Oh, one other thing which I haven't seen mentioned yet--my buddy's aforementioned new KS18XL has the same tire brand and identical tread as my Nik+ 100V

Yes! I mentioned about this when my brother received his new 18XL a few months ago. I wonder if my bro actually got the V2?! I think the new tire CST C-1488 turns a bit easier in a tight spot. And we already confirmed that it grips hugely better than the previous, a notoriously slippery CY H-5102. Anyway, the CST rides great!