My 84-volt Nikola Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

[Marty Backe]

23 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

In my books even the V10F beats Nikola on this test. Here’s why: 

Number one task of the wheel is to protect the rider. 

Number two is to protect the wheel from damage. 

Only third most important is to take the rider to the most extreme hills. 

The V10F is kicks off the rider too easily but that is still the only correct behavior. 18L/XL does the same but not that easily. They will never cause a faceplant or get destroyed by testing their limits. It’s another issue how large their safety margins are. 

The Nikola didn’t only fail on the third task but failed BIG TIME on the two more important tasks. It caused a faceplant and got broken. It also didn’t report the temperature accurately. Marty was commenting that it’s a cool running wheel while some parts were overheated to the point of destruction.

Same goes for some other Gotways. Their performance could be an illusion because we don’t really know how close to their limit they have been and what the real temperatures were. Only way to know is to have a faceplant and a broken wheel. On some other wheels we can safely test where the safety margins are and they simply let you know that it’s time to stop. Having some protective behavior naturally also has to limit the performance. The manufacturers must set the margins large enough to cover all possible scenarios (same with speed limits). In my books this is the right way to do it. I understand why some people don’t want that, you get more performance but then there is always the risk of not knowing how close to a faceplant you are riding. 

In any case, while I applaud Marty for doing these tests (very entertaining), we should remember that a wheel isn’t bad just because it overheated on the overheat hill. Unless you really need to ride those kinds of hills (say, you live and work in San Francisco and your daily commute goes over the steepest roads) you will almost never encounter anything like that. The 84v Nikola will do fine and seems like a great wheel.

Just a couple small points to consider. I can't address Inmotion, but KingSong utilizes fuses which does protect the wheel, but I have personally seen faceplants from those fuses blowing.

Yes, I agree my test is not fully realistic (yet I do ride these or equivalent for entertainment sometimes, and I know others who do too), but I think they are important because they can identify weak design elements that can possibly come into play under more normal riding conditions.

You may be surprised how many people use their wheels in extreme conditions. That's why some of us buy them. We're not in 2016 still. We want wheels that can perform in rugged conditions and we now know that it's possible.

I expect any circa 2019 performance wheel to fully survive something like my tests. If it doesn't it's an inferior wheel.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Marty Backe

[meepmeepmayer]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I agree my test is not fully realistic

If you do it in real life, it is realistic.

Fully agree with the rest. Wheels must survive 99.99% percentile extreme cases, not the average rider or what some low-weight Chinese falsely believe that is.

[UniVehje]

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Just a couple small points to consider. I can't address Inmotion, but KingSong utilizes fuses which does protect the wheel, but I have personally seen faceplants from those fuses blowing.

Yes, I agree my test is not fully realistic (yet I do ride these or equivalent for entertainment sometimes, and I know others who do too), but I think they are important because they can identify weak design elements that can possibly come into play under more normal riding conditions.

You may be surprised how many people use their wheels in extreme conditions. That's why some of us buy them. We're not in 2016 still. We want wheels that can perform in rugged conditions and we now know that it's possible.

I fully expect any circa 2019 performance wheel to fully survive something like my tests. If it doesn't it's an inferior wheel.

Didn’t you take the 18XL on that hill and it kicked you off? That’s the behavior I’m talking about. I don’t know about older kingsongs, my comment was not about brands. 

And you are right about the extremes. I’m one of those people also who like to go to extremes and want to know that my wheel will perform well. That’s why I like that you do these tests. 

I don’t have any hills like that over here but I often ride on very difficult trails that can be demanding on the wheel. I think my point is that I’d like to go anywhere without having to think about whether the wheel can manage. One way to know is having seen you do it first but it’s also really nice to know that the wheel won’t let me ever go so far that it will fail and I have to carry it out of the woods while dripping blood from my face 

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Didn’t you take the 18XL on that hill and it kicked you off? That’s the behavior I’m talking about. I don’t know about older kingsongs, my comment was not about brands. 

And you are right about the extremes. I’m one of those people also who like to go to extremes and want to know that my wheel will perform well. That’s why I like that you do these tests. 

I don’t have any hills like that over here but I often ride on very difficult trails that can be demanding on the wheel. I think my point is that I’d like to go anywhere without having to think about whether the wheel can manage. One way to know is having seen you do it first but it’s also really nice to know that the wheel won’t let me ever go so far that it will fail and I have to carry it out of the woods while dripping blood from my face 

I know you weren't talking about brands. I was just pointing out that any wheel can still cause a faceplant in similar conditions to my hill but you were implying that should never happen. Either the wheel will just quit (Z10), blow MOSFETs (Gotway), or blow fuses (Kingsong and I believe Inmotion). In all case you are going down.

Otherwise we are basically in agreement.

[Hatchet]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I expect any circa 2019 performance wheel to fully survive something like my tests. If it doesn't it's an inferior wheel.

Damn straight Marty.

[MaxLinux]

3 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Marty was commenting that it’s a cool running wheel

Gotway discovered the easiest way to have a cool running wheel: place the temperature probe in a nice cool area. Keep the temperature probe away from the MOSFETs!

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I know you weren't talking about brands. I was just pointing out that any wheel can still cause a faceplant in similar conditions to my hill but you were implying that should never happen. Either the wheel will just quit (Z10), blow MOSFETs (Gotway), or blow fuses (Kingsong and I believe Inmotion). In all case you are going down.

Otherwise we are basically in agreement.

I’m pretty sure that @UniVehje’s point was that despite the fuses being used in the 18XL, you didn’t go down when it overheated at overheat hill.

I haven’t read very meticulously about 18XL experiences, but has anyone actually blown a fuse during a ride?

Edited June 22, 2019 by mrelwood

[Phil McLaughlin]

As the guy who placed the first order for an 84V Nikola from @Jason McNeil and was riding one from the first batch, I was concerned when @Marty Backe reported the burnout of his control board. After seeing the pictures I parked the wheel until I could find the time to tear it down and inspect the control board (good to have other wheels to ride ). A long career in electronics design and manufacturing made me suspect that this was an assembly "innovation" not a one-off quality slip. Before disassembly my Nikola was riding flawlessly showing no signs of a problem. (By the way this wheel is WONDERFUL!) I had only put about 90 miles on the wheel before parking it. My rides were local rides on paved roads with rolling hills and max speeds of about 26 mph (42 kph). So... not much stress on this wheel. I have attached a picture of my control board that shows glue residue on the MOSFETs but no apparent thermal damage to the board or MOSFETs. As previously commented in this thread the presence of a substance that is a very efficient thermal INSULATOR on the MOSFET heat transfer surface is a big problem. I will be rebuilding the wheel on Monday after correcting the defect and bringing the thermal management up to what I consider an acceptable level. I will post a video of the rebuild for anyone interested in a DIY solution.

So far when anyone has looked they found glue. Just another data point...

[Marty Backe]

34 minutes ago, Phil McLaughlin said:

As the guy who placed the first order for an 84V Nikola from @Jason McNeil and was riding one from the first batch, I was concerned when @Marty Backe reported the burnout of his control board. After seeing the pictures I parked the wheel until I could find the time to tear it down and inspect the control board (good to have other wheels to ride ). A long career in electronics design and manufacturing made me suspect that this was an assembly "innovation" not a one-off quality slip. Before disassembly my Nikola was riding flawlessly showing no signs of a problem. (By the way this wheel is WONDERFUL!) I had only put about 90 miles on the wheel before parking it. My rides were local rides on paved roads with rolling hills and max speeds of about 26 mph (42 kph). So... not much stress on this wheel. I have attached a picture of my control board that shows glue residue on the MOSFETs but no apparent thermal damage to the board or MOSFETs. As previously commented in this thread the presence of a substance that is a very efficient thermal INSULATOR on the MOSFET heat transfer surface is a big problem. I will be rebuilding the wheel on Monday after correcting the defect and bringing the thermal management up to what I consider an acceptable level. I will post a video of the rebuild for anyone interested in a DIY solution.

So far when anyone has looked they found glue. Just another data point...

Wow, fantastic. I think you just nailed the coffin shut on the Nikola. This is a generic production problem for sure.

Maybe wish I could have done this to mine if I had known, but then again nobody spending Nikola money should have to do this.

Thanks for the post. I hope you've sent this to Jason.

P.s. I look forward to the video, although it won't help me 

Edited June 22, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Phil McLaughlin]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Wow, fantastic. I think you just nailed the coffin shut on the Nikola. This is a generic production problem for sure.

Maybe wish I could have done this to mine if I had known, but then again nobody spending Nikola money should have to do this.

Thanks for the post. I hope you've sent this to Jason.

The thanks goes to you for potentially sparing me and others a trip down the road on our faces! Yes I have been keeping Jason in the loop on my rebuild. In truth it is sooo hard to get a product right until a few thousand units get out the door. I am more disappointed then angry. I guess I am a fellow Stoic.

[scotchtape]

A+ what a wild ride.

So glad I bought MSX instead having to wait for these newer wheels.

 

[Marty Backe]

7 minutes ago, Phil McLaughlin said:

The thanks goes to you for potentially sparing me and others a trip down the road on our faces! Yes I have been keeping Jason in the loop on my rebuild. In truth it is sooo hard to get a product right until a few thousand units get out the door. I am more disappointed then angry. I guess I am a fellow Stoic.

[Yunicycle]

 "nobody spending Nikola money should have to do this"

Agree with this statement 100%.   Gotway should have to make it right for their Nikola customers.  No one after spending 2k should have to modify their boards to feel safe riding them.  Ridiculous!!!!

[MaxLinux]

23 minutes ago, Yunicycle said:

No one after spending 2k should have to modify their boards to feel safe

The most amazing aspect of this Nikola fiasco is the apparent COMPLETE lack of RUDIMENTARY BASIC understanding of the purpose and function of MOSFET heat transfer by Gotway and/or the outsourced company building this board!

[Nils]

3 hours ago, Phil McLaughlin said:

As the guy who placed the first order for an 84V Nikola from @Jason McNeil and was riding one from the first batch, I was concerned when @Marty Backe reported the burnout of his control board. After seeing the pictures I parked the wheel until I could find the time to tear it down and inspect the control board (good to have other wheels to ride ). A long career in electronics design and manufacturing made me suspect that this was an assembly "innovation" not a one-off quality slip. Before disassembly my Nikola was riding flawlessly showing no signs of a problem. (By the way this wheel is WONDERFUL!) I had only put about 90 miles on the wheel before parking it. My rides were local rides on paved roads with rolling hills and max speeds of about 26 mph (42 kph). So... not much stress on this wheel. I have attached a picture of my control board that shows glue residue on the MOSFETs but no apparent thermal damage to the board or MOSFETs. As previously commented in this thread the presence of a substance that is a very efficient thermal INSULATOR on the MOSFET heat transfer surface is a big problem. I will be rebuilding the wheel on Monday after correcting the defect and bringing the thermal management up to what I consider an acceptable level. I will post a video of the rebuild for anyone interested in a DIY solution.

So far when anyone has looked they found glue. Just another data point...

Oh man, not a one-off then..  Thanks for looking at this and updating us, and I'd be very interested to see a video of your rework! While I don't believe I'll do this myself, it would be very interesting at any rate. Did you happen to shoot any video of your disassembly and inspection? A shame that this should be so hard to inspect without destroying the board, perhaps some tool like @Harold Farrenkopf suggested could work.

So, how widespread are we to assume that this is then? Sub-set of batches? First batch? All 84V batches? 100V batches as well? Gotway need to provide some kind of official response here. Also, as Marty noted it might be possible that same thing is happening with other Gotway wheels, and that it's just the bigger MOSFETs saving them.

Argh, another year, another wheel, another problem, I'm having a bad streak it seems. Those waiting for the KS16X should be lucky I didn't go with that, if I had it would probably be discovered that they built it out of some new cost-saving material that turned out to spontaneously combust when rubbing it wrong. 

"Mo wheels mo problems"

[Michael Tucker]

This type of problem should be of no surprise as its from a first batch. Every first batch run of every model has problems. The glue was simply used because they were in a hurry to rush their new 16 incher to market before KingSong, many elements of the Nicola seem rushed. The glue is not really the issue anyways, the small MOSFETs are the issue. The glue can simply be skipped for future batches, but those small MOSFETs are there in the design of the 84V.

Future buyers may not be able to see if glue was used, but they can see the small MOSFETs. Who will trust them now...will it blow after 100 miles, 500miles, 1000 miles?!!! Small MOSFETs are a KNOWN problem and again right out of the gate we see a faceplant captured on camera. Marty's hill test only accelerated the burning up of the small MOSFETs before they would have blown later anyways, glue or no glue.

Small MOSFETs should be reserved for casual riding only, and with glue as a new possible risk, who would buy/ride a first batch 84V Nicola? Gotway Daredevils of course!!!

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

This type of problem should be of no surprise as its from a first batch. Every first batch run of every model has problems. The glue was simply used because they were in a hurry to rush their new 16 incher to market before KingSong, many elements of the Nicola seem rushed. The glue is not really the issue anyways, the small MOSFETs are the issue. The glue can simply be skipped for future batches, but those small MOSFETs are there in the design of the 84V.

Future buyers may not be able to see if glue was used, but they can see the small MOSFETs. Who will trust them now...will it blow after 100 miles, 500miles, 1000 miles?!!! Small MOSFETs are a KNOWN problem and again right out of the gate we see a faceplant captured on camera. Marty's hill test only accelerated the burning up of the small MOSFETs before they would have blown later anyways, glue or no glue.

Small MOSFETs should be reserved for casual riding only, and with glue as a new possible risk, who would buy/ride a first batch 84V Nicola? Gotway Daredevils of course!!!

So Is there a chance they will come out with a replacement board with better design and the larger MOSFETS ?  soon ???  I just got my nikola back tonight    rode it for about an hour. I didn't get off work until midnight.. but it felt great... way  better than before. I think my board was wonky from the getgo. but it feels even better now.  so I'm gonna ride it. but ill use it for my commuting for now   now HARD riding till i hear more about how safe it is.  Im terrified of a cutout in traffic at thirty mph   that would suck.. for a second or two..... 

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

6 hours ago, Phil McLaughlin said:

As the guy who placed the first order for an 84V Nikola from @Jason McNeil and was riding one from the first batch, I was concerned when @Marty Backe reported the burnout of his control board. After seeing the pictures I parked the wheel until I could find the time to tear it down and inspect the control board (good to have other wheels to ride ). A long career in electronics design and manufacturing made me suspect that this was an assembly "innovation" not a one-off quality slip. Before disassembly my Nikola was riding flawlessly showing no signs of a problem. (By the way this wheel is WONDERFUL!) I had only put about 90 miles on the wheel before parking it. My rides were local rides on paved roads with rolling hills and max speeds of about 26 mph (42 kph). So... not much stress on this wheel. I have attached a picture of my control board that shows glue residue on the MOSFETs but no apparent thermal damage to the board or MOSFETs. As previously commented in this thread the presence of a substance that is a very efficient thermal INSULATOR on the MOSFET heat transfer surface is a big problem. I will be rebuilding the wheel on Monday after correcting the defect and bringing the thermal management up to what I consider an acceptable level. I will post a video of the rebuild for anyone interested in a DIY solution.

So far when anyone has looked they found glue. Just another data point...

Cant wait for the video.. doubt i"d have the Tech knowledge to pull it off but ... maybe :)

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

This type of problem should be of no surprise as its from a first batch. Every first batch run of every model has problems. The glue was simply used because they were in a hurry to rush their new 16 incher to market before KingSong, many elements of the Nicola seem rushed. The glue is not really the issue anyways, the small MOSFETs are the issue. The glue can simply be skipped for future batches, but those small MOSFETs are there in the design of the 84V.

Future buyers may not be able to see if glue was used, but they can see the small MOSFETs. Who will trust them now...will it blow after 100 miles, 500miles, 1000 miles?!!! Small MOSFETs are a KNOWN problem and again right out of the gate we see a faceplant captured on camera. Marty's hill test only accelerated the burning up of the small MOSFETs before they would have blown later anyways, glue or no glue.

Small MOSFETs should be reserved for casual riding only, and with glue as a new possible risk, who would buy/ride a first batch 84V Nicola? Gotway Daredevils of course!!!

I just have to say.. the ONLY reason i was okay with buying a first run GOTWAY was because their last two wheels (mcm5 and MsuperX) had NO failures reported .. so i figured it was safe  .  maybe i heard wrong but   thats what i thought  so yeah,   A little disappointed.

Edited June 22, 2019 by Lucas Alexander Oliver
spelling

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

She’s nestled safely back in at home with the rest of her pack... can’t wait to put some miles on nikola. Thank you @Jason McNeil and the crew at ewheels for getting her back so quickly...  she was only gone  nine days  

Edited June 22, 2019 by Lucas Alexander Oliver
Spelling

[Rehab1]

The more I read this thread the angrier I get.

Aside from @Jason McNeil working feverishly on finding a resolution for Nikola’s main board failure has there been any official GW representation on this forum addressing the issue? NO

Has GW issued any official written statement regarding the defective mainboard? NO!

Other than Jason has GW offered any form compensation to it’s customers such as free repairs or parts or shipping? NO!

If you compare the handling of this situation to how Inmotion handled their waterproofing vulnerability issues last year the result is night and day. 

Can you even imagine GW issuing an official  statement like the one IM issued last year?

 

Further IM not only kept their customer’s up to date on the required necessary repairs but also followed through with their promise to pay the shipping costs for the V10F’s return to a repair facility. (redacted email)

 

 

Inmotion reps also kept me in the loop during my wheel’s repair process which took 10 days. 

 

 

This level of professionalism and customer service should be a norm for all EUC manufacturers.  Unfortunately that not the case. 

I sincerely hope that Jason does not end up bearing the burden and expense repairing his customer’s Nikolas due to a failure of GW’s maladroit technicians.

Edited June 22, 2019 by Rehab1

[Unventor]

3 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

This level of professionalism and customer service should be a norm for all EUC manufacturers.  Unfortunately that not the case. 

I sincerely hope that Jason does not end up bearing the burden and expense repairing the Nikola because of GW’s maladroit technicians failure to assemble the main board properly. 

I do agree that manufacturers should look a bit further ahead and nurse their brand and products more. Especially since these are not around the corner shop or services. 

As for Jason I think it depends on 2 things, under what agreement products are traded, and how goor or tens the relationship is.

You saw what happened with 9B, some could easily happen with GW too for a period at least. 

Or it could go like Ian from speedy feet, not buy 1st batch products. 

[Harold Farrenkopf]

8 hours ago, Phil McLaughlin said:

As the guy who placed the first order for an 84V Nikola from @Jason McNeil and was riding one from the first batch, I was concerned when @Marty Backe reported the burnout of his control board. After seeing the pictures I parked the wheel until I could find the time to tear it down and inspect the control board (good to have other wheels to ride ). A long career in electronics design and manufacturing made me suspect that this was an assembly "innovation" not a one-off quality slip. Before disassembly my Nikola was riding flawlessly showing no signs of a problem. (By the way this wheel is WONDERFUL!) I had only put about 90 miles on the wheel before parking it. My rides were local rides on paved roads with rolling hills and max speeds of about 26 mph (42 kph). So... not much stress on this wheel. I have attached a picture of my control board that shows glue residue on the MOSFETs but no apparent thermal damage to the board or MOSFETs. As previously commented in this thread the presence of a substance that is a very efficient thermal INSULATOR on the MOSFET heat transfer surface is a big problem. I will be rebuilding the wheel on Monday after correcting the defect and bringing the thermal management up to what I consider an acceptable level. I will post a video of the rebuild for anyone interested in a DIY solution.

So far when anyone has looked they found glue. Just another data point...

I assume you know about the potential time bomb of correcting this and riding it with this board?  Those 6 mosfets have likely been stressed by operating hot and could fail easier than normal. 

[stephen]

3 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Or it could go like Ian from speedy feet, not buy 1st batch products

Speedyfeet already has the nikola in stock ,i don't think he'll like this for his sales

[meepmeepmayer]

29 minutes ago, stephen said:

Speedyfeet already has the nikola in stock ,i don't think he'll like this for his sales

I sent him a quick warning yesterday. Not sure if he got it, I didn't get the usual auto-reply email.