My 84-volt Nikola Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

[Unventor]

@Nils yes you are partly right however....

For a dealer it is much easier if the manufacturer have accepted a fault as a quality issue and supply new parts or conduct service. 

However the legal responsibility is not from manufactory to buyer. It is between the dealer and the buyer. The dealer is liable for any manufacturing fault that the buyer can prove. This is how confumer laws work in most Western countries. In China I am not so sure. But as a buyer your right is from a legal point of view in the country from where you bought the product.

So it is the dealer that decide how huge an impact they can take and then they will try to get costs covered from their supply er whether it is distribution or manufactory. 

I am pretty sure that is also why in the @Jason McNeil pulled the plug on the Z10. 9B didn't accept their product had such high fault issues that the profit margin made it bad business and bad PR for the dealers. It is all too easy as a dealer to push aware responsibility if you are not a serious dealer. I work for a very big and very know it related company. And is it is a serious dealer they will cover some issues and at a later point clam this back once they have enough cases to prove a quality issue. It is in their risk and profit calculation. From what I have seen in the past year, I don't think people realise how much @Jason McNeil acturly do to keep his business going and in good reputation and how this push manufactors to make better products.

I have said this before, I wish we had an EU Jason, but unfortunately we don't. It is not that current EU dealers are necessarily bad, but they don't deal with as many brands in one shop and are not visual to same extent to this community. So end of the day any Nikola concerns should go to the dealer, their task is to make the case to GW on the glue gate as this is right now a case of PR and trust in my book. If a dealer contact GW with 50 units at risk it makes a much hard case to dismiss that, than on customer to customer basis. 

And that is why it is sooo important to support a local dealer, than saving maybe 10-15% buying from China. Getting local dealer in a region with attract more customers too in the long run. 

@US69 I know what we discuss here is about GW but the mechanic behind it would be similar for KS. Like we saw for 1st batch KS18L, would you agree to that?

That is also why I can only lift the hat on the decision from KS to postpone KS16X until it is right, despite it means I will not have it for my holidays. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Unventor
Compared GW vs KS decision comment added.

[Marty Backe]

12 minutes ago, Dzlchef said:

I wonder if I shouldn't try Overheat Hill once I safely have my replacement board in hand?   If mine makes it then you should feel confident that the replacement board should do the same.   Well, unless it then allows too much current to flow down the line...

If you're willing, we should do it together. Would make a great video. I actually feel confident because at this point it's pretty much the MSX board which did great on that hill.

[Nils]

34 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Make an overheat hill party and destroy the boards, so the numbers go up 

Great idea, just gear up and no worries!

[Nils]

21 minutes ago, Dzlchef said:

I wonder if I shouldn't try Overheat Hill once I safely have my replacement board in hand?   If mine makes it then you should feel confident that the replacement board should do the same.   Well, unless it then allows too much current to flow down the line...

Would be great, if nothing else then for the name of science! I still believe that my wheel would do fine up there, and while I obviously can't say anything about the state of your own board it seems like you're doing some serious riding with it now anyways. Would be interesting to see at any rate, and should the wheel fail you could check the state of things for your particular board afterward. (All this supposes you're properly protected of course)

[Michael Tucker]

@Marty Backe and @Dzlchef a joint ride up those same hills would be killer!!!!! Before and after photos of the board would be great. And monitoring temperatures and amps too. Although rider weight differences and ride style will diminish the scientific nature of this experiment a little. ONLY DO THIS FOR FUN, NO COMMUNITY PRESSURE. Even if the "old" board survives, I wouldn't ever trust it, especially if I knew better boards were available.

[Dzlchef]

35 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

If you're willing, we should do it together. Would make a great video. I actually feel confident because at this point it's pretty much the MSX board which did great on that hill.

Well, I don't like the idea of lugging the wheel down but I'm fairly confident that it'll make it so I'm game.  Does that mean you'll be riding yours with the newer board along with me?

[yuweng]

One seller is already selling replacement board i guess they must have got the info from this thread 

Spoiler

Shop link

 

 

[Nils]

56 minutes ago, Unventor said:

@Nils yes you are partly right however....

For a dealer it is much easier if the manufacturer have accepted a fault as a quality issue and supply new parts or conduct service. 

However the legal responsibility is not from manufactory to buyer. It is between the dealer and the buyer. The dealer is liable for any manufacturing fault that the buyer can prove. This is how confumer laws work in most Western countries. In China I am not so sure. But as a buyer your right is from a legal point of view in the country from where you bought the product.

So it is the dealer that decide how huge an impact they can take and then they will try to get costs covered from their supply er whether it is distribution or manufactory. 

I am pretty sure that is also why in the @Jason McNeil pulled the plug on the Z10. 9B didn't accept their product had such high fault issues that the profit margin made it bad business and bad PR for the dealers. It is all too easy as a dealer to push aware responsibility if you are not a serious dealer. I work for a very big and very know it related company. And is it is a serious dealer they will cover some issues and at a later point clam this back once they have enough cases to prove a quality issue. It is in their risk and profit calculation. From what I have seen in the past year, I don't think people realise how much @Jason McNeil acturly do to keep his business going and in good reputation and how this push manufactors to make better products.

I have said this before, I wish we had an EU Jason, but unfortunately we don't. It is not that current EU dealers are necessarily bad, but they don't deal with as many brands in one shop and are not visual to same extent to this community. So end of the day any Nikola concerns should go to the dealer, their task is to make the case to GW on the glue gate as this is right now a case of PR and trust in my book. If a dealer contact GW with 50 units at risk it makes a much hard case to dismiss that, than on customer to customer basis. 

And that is why it is sooo important to support a local dealer, than saving maybe 10-15% buying from China. Getting local dealer in a region with attract more customers too in the long run. 

@US69 I know what we discuss here is about GW but the mechanic behind it would be similar for KS. Like we saw for 1st batch KS18L, would you agree to that?

That is also why I can only lift the hat on the decision from KS to postpone KS16X until it is right, despite it means I will not have it for my holidays. 

Good points, but there are a lots of variables and factors here I'd say. To begin with I can only concur with your wishes that we had a EU Jason - but as far as I'm aware we don't. If you're in the US, then either buy from this very good proven dealer or choose the price cut and deal with any fall-out, perhaps pretty much on yourself. For us others, it seems to be a choice of buying from some hopefully-not-to-bad dealer or choosing the price cut and dealing with any fall-out, perhaps pretty much yourself. Paying the eWheels premium for eWheel service is one thing, and I encourage anyone applicable to do that as you'd get your money's worth back in case of troubles and Jason is really clued in and knows what's what, but paying the same premium to some random dealer in the EU without getting the same level of service is just too little to tip the scales for me. My point here really is there aren't any good options really as far as I'm aware.

Apart from that, how big is the market really? How many sellers can choose to front money in the hope of claiming it back from the manufacturer later through reimbursement or better deals in the future? eWheels, having built up a business over many years and covering a larger area, probably can but your local dealer in the EU? Probably not.

I don't disparage your legal arguments regarding consumer rights, but unless the seller is in the same country it seems this would end up being very cumbersome. Successfully arguing your case at a court of some some kind seems a hard-won victory with a seller outside of your country, and even more so for a Chinese seller.

With regards to PR, we're now living in a globally connected world for better or worse, and I have to assume Gotway (in this case) knows this. They know the amount of wheels shipped out with this potential defect and unless they've lived in a cave for the last 10 or 20 years or so they should be aware of the damage done to their brand. They're likely measuring lost revenue vs brand damage and basing their decisions on that. Their estimation and opinion is of course a subjective one and may not be same as ours (I'd just say "damage control!" and offer replacement boards, but I don't have the exact numbers or know what kind of they backlash they seen in other regions).

Just to end with anything I'd suggest that the market for EUCs in western countries just isn't large enough that one should expect the same mechanisms to apply with regards to retail.

[Unventor]

@Nils and others that have seen my post here at forum know were well that I favour KS over GW, I am not making any secret of this. And yes I live in Sweden just like you, so @Jason McNeil isn't an option for me as a dealer unfortunately.

GW may very well make good wheels, but my point to why I prefer KS anyday is the fact they realised the value of good customer relationship and installed a social rep. That itself is key to gage how big an issue will have of PR value. In that regard I can only thank @US69 for that that task, as it is anything but easy to bridge culture and customer / company relationship.

I do hope that GW will value their customers and take the cost of this lesson the Nikola bought them, now and in future. 

Main reason I strongly value competition and diversity of choices it brings. 

[Nils]

2 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

@Marty Backe and @Dzlchef a joint ride up those same hills would be killer!!!!! Before and after photos of the board would be great. And monitoring temperatures and amps too. Although rider weight differences and ride style will diminish the scientific nature of this experiment a little. ONLY DO THIS FOR FUN, NO COMMUNITY PRESSURE. Even if the "old" board survives, I wouldn't ever trust it, especially if I knew better boards were available.

No - community pressure! Jokes aside though, it's not been shown so far that the current board design is actually lacking. I'll just say upfront, as I've said before, that it really would have been the smart move for Gotway to continue with the larger more capable MOSFETs, if nothing else then for the fact that design is one thing and assembly another. In short, it provides a margin for assembly errors where the MOSFETs can still dissipate enough heat for a given ride even given incorrect assembly. That's theory meeting the imperfections and lacking QA of the real world though, and while I really want every manufacturer to err on the side of caution, I'm still interested in what a correctly assembled version of the current design can bare.

Besides, in a sense a wheel is what a wheel does - you could get a new board with glue on it that will fail while an old board properly assembled will carry you home.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Nils

[Nils]

29 minutes ago, Unventor said:

@Nils and others that have seen my post here at forum know were well that I favour KS over GW, I am not making any secret of this. And yes I live in Sweden just like you, so @Jason McNeil isn't an option for me as a dealer unfortunately.

 GW may very well make good wheels, but my point to why I prefer KS anyday is the fact they realised the value of good customer relationship and installed a social rep. That itself is key to gage how big an issue will have of PR value. In that regard I can only thank @US69 for that that task, as it is anything but easy to bridge culture and customer / company relationship.

I do hope that GW will value their customers and take the cost of this lesson the Nikola bought them, now and in future. 

Main reason I strongly value competition and diversity of choices it brings. 

Very much agree, and I try to give @US69 a virtual pad on the back whenever I can. He's doing good work, and KS by extension show that they as a manufacturer care. I can only hope for other manufacturers to take note of this example.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Dzlchef said:

Well, I don't like the idea of lugging the wheel down but I'm fairly confident that it'll make it so I'm game.  Does that mean you'll be riding yours with the newer board along with me?

Of course. I thought we would do this after both of our wheels get the new control board.

2 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

@Marty Backe and @Dzlchef a joint ride up those same hills would be killer!!!!! Before and after photos of the board would be great. And monitoring temperatures and amps too. Although rider weight differences and ride style will diminish the scientific nature of this experiment a little. ONLY DO THIS FOR FUN, NO COMMUNITY PRESSURE. Even if the "old" board survives, I wouldn't ever trust it, especially if I knew better boards were available.

The photos part won't be happening. Way too much work disassembling the wheel for photos. Nope, just a simple test like I always to: ride up the hill and observe the temperatures.

[Nils]

8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Of course. I thought we would do this after both of our wheels get the new control board.

A good notion, but I'd personally be very interested in a properly assembled TO-220 board wheel going up there. You know, science and all that

[Dzlchef]

37 minutes ago, Nils said:

A good notion, but I'd personally be very interested in a properly assembled TO-220 board wheel going up there. You know, science and all that

You never know when a renegade might give it a go 

[Nils]

8 minutes ago, Dzlchef said:

You never know when a renegade might give it a go 

By "renegade" I assume you meant a "knight in shining armour"? Well, perhaps I shouldn't  put too much of a spin on this, but if if you do decide to give it a go I'd be very interested (and do carry protections of course if so - my intellectual curiosity only carries so far..).

[Dzlchef]

55 minutes ago, Nils said:

By "renegade" I assume you meant a "knight in shining armour"? Well, perhaps I shouldn't  put too much of a spin on this, but if if you do decide to give it a go I'd be very interested (and do carry protections of course if so - my intellectual curiosity only carries so far..).

I'm kinda interested in knowing myself.   I've been wearing full gear every time I step on the Nikola due to some trust issues at the moment. 

 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Dzlchef said:

You never know when a renegade might give it a go 

I suppose if you already have a new board in hand as a backup, it would be good test. But I tell, if it fails you're going to burn up a few thousand extra calories getting that broken wheel down the hill 

[Dzlchef]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I suppose if you already have a new board in hand as a backup, it would be good test. But I tell, if it fails you're going to burn up a few thousand extra calories getting that broken wheel down the hill 

That's really the only thing holding me back.   I'm comfortable falling if the board blows but the thought of carrying that beast down, ugh!   

You missed me riding the Nikola while trolling the KS16S after Warren's accident.   It's bloody hard to do without wrecking, going down steep winding curves and the wheel taking on a mind of it's own!

[Marty Backe]

19 minutes ago, Dzlchef said:

That's really the only thing holding me back.   I'm comfortable falling if the board blows but the thought of carrying that beast down, ugh!   

You missed me riding the Nikola while trolling the KS16S after Warren's accident.   It's bloody hard to do without wrecking, going down steep winding curves and the wheel taking on a mind of it's own!

In reality you would kind of trolley it down like I did. But I would provide you with plenty of camaraderie so surely that would offset your difficulties   In all seriousness, I suspect that your wheel is good.

Trolleying another wheel while riding does sound like a spectacle. Given the size and weight of the 16S I think I would have carried it.

[MaxLinux]

On 6/23/2019 at 10:35 AM, Marty Backe said:

It took me about 60-seconds to think of this. Why the Chinese can't is beyond me.

If you're so ignorant you think hot glue won't spoil the heat transfer, you've already found your answer. No need to make a jig to AVOID using hot glue!

[MaxLinux]

On 6/23/2019 at 11:01 AM, Simone Malicius said:

I knew why your name was a sign of guarantee! sorry for this ot but you have to know how important is what you do in the way you do it! 

When the EUC Hall of Fame is built, a statue of @Jason McNeil will be at the front entrance.

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

5 hours ago, Dzlchef said:

I'm kinda interested in knowing myself.   I've been wearing full gear every time I step on the Nikola due to some trust issues at the moment. 

 

I am gearing up to the max when I’m riding my nikola but I’m still riding it at least 20 miles a day and it’s going famously.     I’m really happy we are going to get properly made control board replacements.. yet another huge example of how much having reputable dealer (ewheels). Is worth.    I will continue riding,  semi cautiously  until I get my replacement.  I really don’t think I’ll have any issues. My nikola glides up any hill with no problem whatsoever. I love it. And once we get the better boards it’ll be perfect.   Thanks again Jason and ewheels for being so good to us as customers and taking care of us. You’re the man !!! 

[Kens]

5 hours ago, Dzlchef said:

That's really the only thing holding me back.   I'm comfortable falling if the board blows but the thought of carrying that beast down, ugh!   

You missed me riding the Nikola while trolling the KS16S after Warren's accident.   It's bloody hard to do without wrecking, going down steep winding curves and the wheel taking on a mind of it's own!

Don't worry Igotchubro!!! 

Spoiler

 

 

[mrelwood]

22 minutes ago, Kens said:

Don't worry Igotchubro!!! 

  Hide contents

 

 

My back started to hurt while watching this... Ouch!

[Rywokast]

42 minutes ago, Kens said:

Don't worry Igotchubro!!! 

  Hide contents

 

 

pushing a ks16 around like a baby 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Rywokast