My 84-volt Nikola Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

[Harold Farrenkopf]

2 minutes ago, wheelr said:

So what is that substance coming out from around the screws? Some sort of screw insulator, thread locker?

RTV to prevent the screws from getting loose. 

[wheelr]

2 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

RTV to prevent the screws from getting loose. 

Thanks. I would think this type of application would be better served by spring clips, given the vibration EUCs are subjected to.

Edited June 28, 2019 by wheelr

[esaj]

9 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

RTV to prevent the screws from getting loose. 

Thanks for this, I've actually wondered what the stuff actually is (room-temperature vulcanizing silicone). Now I know what to place in my next order:

https://www.tme.eu/fi/en/details/as1740_90/encapsulating-materials/acc-silicones/as1740/#

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by esaj

[Marty Backe]

9 minutes ago, wheelr said:

Thanks. I would think this type of application would be better served by spring clips, given the vibration EUCs are subjected to.

Gotway uses this stuff all over the place. All of the control board screws and control board connectors. I wish they would switch to proper connectors like what KingSong uses on their boards.

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, esaj said:

Good luck with the new board! Hope they got it "right" this time...

What has always caught my eye very first seeing the boards, the KS boards are packed with components, and in comparison, the Gotway boards seem relatively "empty". I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing (either way), simple can be beautiful and completely working, and conservative approach makes less trouble over the product lifetime (there's a lot of outside factors the designers cannot affect, so "playing it safe" is not necessarily a bad idea).

Gotway seems to be pushing the components much closer to their limits, whereas KS is more conservative (probably a lot of those "extra" components have to do with ensuring staying in normal operating ranges and monitoring the "health" of the entire system, they don't have that many extra features or such, of course there's the BT-audio and whatnot requiring more low voltage power supplies and whatnot). Maybe it's like KS trips over their own cleverness (like the strain gauge -issues with the KS18L lift sensor), whereas GW tries to push the limits too far (at times) and ends up with actually boards frying (well, at least in the past, not so much nowadays, this may very well be just an assembly issue and the TO-220 -board would work just fine if it weren't for those)... GW has a lot of boards with dual mosfets (12 x TO-220's), whereas KS went with 6 x TO-247 even for the KS16S (which is "only" 1200W nominal), but is nowadays considered a "lower powered" wheel. Haven't seen any more recent numbers, but at least the S used to hold the highest reliability record ("only" around 1% and change warranty issues, whereas some models from other manufacturers could have >10%). No idea on the newer models though, KS stepped into the high-power region a lot later vs. Gotway, who have pushed the envelope pretty much from the get-go.

Also, the mention of not having an "EU Jason" reminded me... Jason started out in the UK, before moving to Florida. I'm pretty sure the company name was different back then, don't remember what it was though. Not a bad move, there's a much larger customer base in the US, and with the brexit looming, things are about to get hairy for UK dealers.

There are big differences between the western and eastern (Chinese) culture, it's much more common for the people in China to expect some product to last much shorter time than what we've accustomed to here. They just buy a new one when the old one breaks. Taking short cuts in design and production to save relatively small amounts of money has been somewhat common practice... I've "advertised" it before, but I suggest people should read "Poorly Made in China" by Paul Midler, it does give an insightful view into how things work there (or used to, it was published 10 years ago) in an entertaining way.

There's no doubt that the KingSong boards look nicer and they do appear to have a lot more going on. But we would need to see the circuit diagrams.

One functional difference that comes to mind is that the charger input goes through the KingSong control board whereas on Gotway the charger input goes directly to the batteries. So there must be some charging related electronics on the KingSong boards that's missing from Gotway.

[esaj]

8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

There's no doubt that the KingSong boards look nicer and they do appear to have a lot more going on. But we would need to see the circuit diagrams.

One functional difference that comes to mind is that the charger input goes through the KingSong control board whereas on Gotway the charger input goes directly to the batteries. So there must be some charging related electronics on the KingSong boards that's missing from Gotway.

There is, for certain, although I don't know the extent of it. @cgi lately actually got bitten by this, he got a new KS14D board to replace the one that broke (not sure what happened to it), the board was new revision and... turns out they've either changed the connector polarity or somebody has screwed up big time on assembly; the connector coming from the charge port is reversed and fried the charger, also the board now informs the app that the wheel is being charged, even with no charger attached (probably coupled with the firmware being "smart" and preventing motor drive during charging). Details here:

So it's not necessarily always good to have "too much smarts" in systems. Granted, they can also do "good things" like monitoring the system health and detecting wear down/issues beforehand, and in this case it's either a really weird design choice (changing connector polarity between revisions of the same board, hello?) or an assembly fault (connector placed the wrong way around on the board, the mating connector has a shape/clip that prevents it from being inserted the wrong way around, but if the connector on the board is already reversed...)

Edited June 29, 2019 by esaj

[MaxLinux]

On 6/26/2019 at 7:38 PM, Marty Backe said:

Given the size and weight of the 16S I think I would have carried it.

I remember a long time ago a French guy (he posted a series of videos of his cross-country EUC journeys, does anyone remember who I mean?) was on a group ride, and I'm still amazed as I recall this, one guy's EUC broke down, and it turned out the guy I'm referring to was riding a MSuper V3 with a MSuper V2 strapped to his back! He gave it to the guy whose EUC broke down! Does anyone remember seeing that? 

[meepmeepmayer]

That was the legendary Ugo Bibron. Unfortunately no new videos from him lately.

[gotmotion2016]

You just a small stap before me meep

Got the same person in mind.

But can’t find this video.

Edited June 29, 2019 by gotmotion2016

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, MaxLinux said:

I remember a long time ago a French guy (he posted a series of videos of his cross-country EUC journeys, does anyone remember who I mean?) was on a group ride, and I'm still amazed as I recall this, one guy's EUC broke down, and it turned out the guy I'm referring to was riding a MSuper V3 with a MSuper V2 strapped to his back! He gave it to the guy whose EUC broke down! Does anyone remember seeing that? 

 

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That was the legendary Ugo Bibron. Unfortunately no new videos from him lately.

That's so funny, Riding with a spare MSuper on your back. Those V2s weren't exactly small 

[MaxLinux]

7 hours ago, esaj said:

I suggest people should read "Poorly Made in China" by Paul Midler

Thank you for this tip. This book looks very interesting! I intend to read it after completing my current book, Strange Angel https://tinyurl.com/y38qspzd

[MaxLinux]

6 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That was the legendary Ugo Bibron.

Yes, thank you! I see @gotmotion2016 tried unsuccessfully to find the video I mentioned. It is hard to find because (if I recall correctly) it was not one of his. It was posted (if I recall correctly) by someone from the group ride that Ugo happened to be part of. I would love to see that part again with the MSuper V2 on his back if I could ever find that video again! Maybe eventually someone who knows the video will see this and respond with a link. If I find it, I'll post a link.

[MaxLinux]

16 minutes ago, MaxLinux said:

Yes, thank you! I see @gotmotion2016 tried unsuccessfully to find the video I mentioned. It is hard to find because (if I recall correctly) it was not one of his. It was posted (if I recall correctly) by someone from the group ride that Ugo happened to be part of. I would love to see that part again with the MSuper V2 on his back if I could ever find that video again! Maybe eventually someone who knows the video will see this and respond with a link. If I find it, I'll post a link.

Thanks to the search feature in this forum, I found it! Look at 5:13

I think very few people can ride an MSuper with another Msuper in the bag!

@Hansolo wrote: 5:13: a battery problem on the KS16B of Pascal91 so Ugo takes his MS3 out his bag and lends his MS2 to Pascal91

 

I wrote: 

 

Edited June 29, 2019 by MaxLinux

[Dzlchef]

11 hours ago, Han Vo said:

Is @Jason McNeil sending out to all of us that got the first batch

Great question!  Hoping that @Jason McNeil is just using @Marty Backe to pressure test the new board before sending to the rest of us worried early Nikola adopters.  Except, I see that they are for sale again on his website so he’s probably already switched boards on the new purchases. 

[houseofjob]

On 6/28/2019 at 5:42 PM, esaj said:

Jason started out in the UK, before moving to Florida. I'm pretty sure the company name was different back then, don't remember what it was though.

WheelGo

[cgi]

On 6/29/2019 at 3:16 AM, esaj said:

There is, for certain, although I don't know the extent of it. @cgi lately actually got bitten by this, he got a new KS14D board to replace the one that broke (not sure what happened to it), the board was new revision and... turns out they've either changed the connector polarity or somebody has screwed up big time on assembly; the connector coming from the charge port is reversed and fried the charger, also the board now informs the app that the wheel is being charged, even with no charger attached (probably coupled with the firmware being "smart" and preventing motor drive during charging).

Yes indeed. From probing the board with a meter, the charger connector is basically just connected to the batteries, but there's some additional tap off that for the wheel to determine if the wheel is being charged or not. That's why my charger failed so explosively, because the full battery current was dumped back into it reverse polarity.

[Marty Backe]

So it appears that there's movement on the Gotway front. There's a direct post from Gotway on Facebook that indicates new control boards will be provided to all 1st generation Nikola owners. The only proviso seems to be if you bought direct from China (Aliexpress, etc.) you're on your own for getting direct support. There's the usual language barrier, but I think they're just saying you'll get warranty service (potential to have your dealer do the fix) but the other purchasers will have to do the work themselves. The boards will still be free.

Looks like we've come full circle in only a bit more than 2-weeks. Not bad 

EDIT: I should have originally said that everyone will get a new board except for @Phil McLaughlin since his has superior heat shedding than any of us will ever have 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Rywokast]

15 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

So it appears that there's movement on the Gotway front. There's a direct post from Gotway on Facebook that indicates new control boards will be provided to all 1st generation Nikola owners. The only proviso seems to be if you bought direct from China (Aliexpress, etc.) you're on your own for getting direct support. There's the usual language barrier, but I think they're just saying you'll get warranty service (potential to have your dealer do the fix) but the other purchasers will have to do the work themselves. The boards will still be free.

Looks like we've come full circle in only a bit more than 2-weeks. Not bad 

just saw that too.. finally they publicly acknowledge their mistake.. hopefully it will be rectified swiftly now and somehow every nikola owner will hear about it, before they figure it out themselves the hard way... and yea, man they really need to have a translator 

[mrelwood]

Owning up to the isse, that is great news! Not much more Gotway could do themselves.

If anyone communicates with their Aliexpress distributor about the issue, perhaps it would be worth urging them to notify all their Nikola customers, as this is a serious and dangerous issue.

[Nils]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

So it appears that there's movement on the Gotway front. There's a direct post from Gotway on Facebook that indicates new control boards will be provided to all 1st generation Nikola owners. The only proviso seems to be if you bought direct from China (Aliexpress, etc.) you're on your own for getting direct support. There's the usual language barrier, but I think they're just saying you'll get warranty service (potential to have your dealer do the fix) but the other purchasers will have to do the work themselves. The boards will still be free.

Looks like we've come full circle in only a bit more than 2-weeks. Not bad 

Yep, definitely the right call, and great to see this response from Gotway. And yes, the way I read it any buyers from Ali for instance should get their replacement boards from their seller and will have to change them themselves (as should be expected). This is somewhat clarified by Kebye in a subsequent comment (quoted below), although it doesn't explicitly say that these will be free of charge, but that's my current expectation. Will see how it plays out with my seller.

Quote

Most county have dealers . If have no local dealer .they have to change mainboard by themselves . And ask a mainboard from their sellers .

 

[Han Vo]

@Marty Backe hopefully the new board wont beep like a bullhorn when you turn it on  😁

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Han Vo said:

@Marty Backe hopefully the new board wont beep like a bullhorn when you turn it on  😁

Ah, a true optimist you are 

[Rywokast]

10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Ah, a true optimist you are 

i plan to, when i open my nikola.. disconnect the speakers for that reason alone.. eff that doo doo doo doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo every time i power it on in front of 50 people outside the shop, or at 4 am waking up everyone around me lol

Edited July 2, 2019 by Rywokast

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

So @Marty Backe  will you please do as detailed a video as possible on how to change the board on the Nikola?   I do not want to have to pay to send it in or be away from it for more than a week.    I am scared to mess my wheel up though. So it would be a huge favor if you’d show me as best as you can how to do this without messing my perfect wheel up. Lol.    I hope this works out for you.  Thanks. 

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

So @Marty Backe  will you please do as detailed a video as possible on how to change the board on the Nikola?   I do not want to have to pay to send it in or be away from it for more than a week.    I am scared to mess my wheel up though. So it would be a huge favor if you’d show me as best as you can how to do this without messing my perfect wheel up. Lol.    I hope this works out for you.  Thanks. 

I'm sorry, but this may not be possible. I removed the old board and didn't film much of that process and wasn't planning on filming the installation since it would be odd without the removal part. I'm pretty sure there's at least one Nikola tear-down video already on YouTube. Actually all Gotway wheels are pretty much the same regarding the control board removal. I know I have some of those videos on my channel, and there are lots of others too.

The most important part is to disconnect the battery connector first and then turn on the wheel to discharge the capacitors. Then it's just a matter of labeling and disconnecting all of the connectors.