Ninebot One Z : Z6-Z8-Z10

[Lukasz]

Slightly less than 3000 $ but this is still beyond reasonable price - However we live in the competitive world!  Proof of concept with first reviews of Z10 will motivate other well known main competitors which already offer good 18" wheels to find 4" tire, take all their existing HW, design new "batman"  shell ... and prices will drop...

[Scatcat]

9 hours ago, Stanor said:

do you know how much they want to sell us the Z10 in France? Come on, laugh well  

 

I suspected it would be expensive, but this is just ridiculous...

[FreeRide]

Calm down people; wait for the s... to hit the fan, i mean rubber to hit the road.

[meepmeepmayer]

Keep in mind, the Frenchies sell the 2400Wh Monster for 3200€ instead of 2500€ (German = more reasonable EU price) which is 30% more. [Meanwhile, U.S. $2600 = 2100€ but without taxes so it's relatively close to the German price if you added taxes].

So, in analogy, 2400€ in France means 1900€ in rest of EU. Which isn't too unrealistic for a 1kWh Ninebot wheel (Tesla 1020 = 1700€  here, 16S 840 = 1550€).

[Jason McNeil]

On 30/01/2018 at 3:15 AM, Chriull said:

PS: ... Also i had the hope getting a wheel again without this high pitched whining sounds... @cranium was the Ninebot P silent or did it already have this high pitched sound like the KS/GW?

@Jason McNeil what was your experience sound wise? 

Watching the video clips, it's pretty quiet, has a lower frequency hum, I'll get the video edited & uploaded before the end of the week, promise...

On 29/01/2018 at 9:37 AM, KingSong69 said:

it does not Play in the same (power)league than the top 84 V models from the competition...

- It has (only) achieved a maximium of 1500Watt on a Dynamo test (while Top GW/KS go up to over 3000, even 4000 Watts on those test rigs)

- the lower voltage will bring stress to wires and battery

This is NOT the maximum output capability, I wrote in the report "was told that the firmware allows a max peak power of 200A to preserve the hardware from catastrophic failure", if true, this is a theoretical peak of over 10KW. I've visited the KS & GW facilities several times before, apart from a stationary motor testing unit at King Song, I could see no evidence that they do system (including battery pack) dyno testing, whereas Ninebot have a specialised rig with articulated artificial feet to simulate a Rider in lab conditions. There is no question in my mind that the Ninebot R&D facility are much more methodical on carrying out stress testing today.

The topic of today's state-of-the-art power outputs has been discussed at some length before, it's a badly kept secret that the nominal motor output ratings of these motors are not sustainable without irreversible damage at some point along the line. Parasitic heat buildup in the motor coils, switching circuits, wires requires significant active cooling to dissipate this energy. If you throw a 1600Wh Wheel on a Dyno with a continuous >1600W load, it is certain to fail in around 10 minutes (information from an industry insider). 

Why is there the continued claim about lower voltages stressing the cells? For a given cell count, the load-per-cell should be identical regardless of a 60v or 84v setup.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Jason McNeil

[Mono]

33 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Why is there the continued claim about lower voltages stressing the cells?

Probably because learning is a difficult process. When our pet theory goes out of the window it sometimes is even emotionally painful 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Mono

[meepmeepmayer]

35 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

it's a badly kept secret that the nominal motor output ratings of these motors are not sustainable without irreversible damage at some point along the line. Parasitic heat buildup in the motor coils, switching circuits, wires requires significant active cooling to dissipate this energy. If you throw a 1600Wh Wheel on a Dyno with a continuous >1600W load, it is certain to fail in around 10 minutes (information from an industry insider).

Meh

Good info, though!

[Cranium]

On 1/30/2018 at 3:15 AM, Chriull said:

PS: ... Also i had the hope getting a wheel again without this high pitched whining sounds... @cranium was the Ninebot P silent or did it already have this high pitched sound like the KS/GW?

The P was quite compared to my KS 16S.  We can't really derive anything from this for the Z though unless it is known to use the same the same algorithms. 

[FreeRide]

Remember when that popular tool company that came out with their high-voltage tools with lots of performance claims, a couple years back?  Then other well respected tool company just made beefier tools with better batteries/battery-packs at the same lower industry standard voltage (1/2 the high voltage tool).  When the testing started it was no contest the low-voltage tools with the higher amperage packs and motors worked better, faster, longer.  Engineering plays a big role.  When you need torque low voltage high current I think will win every time.  It may be more expensive to build, but unless there are physical reasons it cannot be made (and often they are), I think people thinking higher voltage is their path to greatness are just on a different path.  I won't say it is a worse path because for that one needs to understand the destination. 

[Mono]

1 hour ago, FreeRide said:

When you need torque low voltage high current I think will win every time.

There is no reason to believe this either, AFAICS  There is a wide range of voltages which should give pretty much equivalent results. There is certainly a voltage below of which the result is inferior probably for all sorts of engineering reasons.

[WARPed1701D]

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/39387/how-are-current-and-voltage-related-to-torque-and-speed-of-a-brushless-motor

An interesting discussion. It's on stackexchange so none of it can be considered undeniably correct or course.

Much revolves around the motor design but the lean of the conversation is higher voltage = faster  and higher current = more torque. 

I like the latter. 

[Cranium]

This image shows the relationship of torque and speed in a BLDC motor.  It's also good to see how the efficiency and power curves are affected.  For a given motor design, you have limits on how it will perform based on how much current the windings are rated, how many windings on each coil, as well as how powerful your magnets are.

 

I obtained this graph from here: http://www.electric-skateboard.builders/t/how-does-the-torque-curve-change-with-voltage/25760 but verified the information is accurate (but not as nice looking) with torque curves published by a BLDC (stepper motor) manufacturer. http://www.linmotors.com/BLDC-Motors/BLDC-NEMA23.aspx

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Cranium

[Scatcat]

17 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Watching the video clips, it's pretty quiet, has a lower frequency hum, I'll get the video edited & uploaded before the end of the week, promise...

This is NOT the maximum output capability, I wrote in the report "was told that the firmware allows a max peak power of 200A to preserve the hardware from catastrophic failure", if true, this is a theoretical peak of over 10KW. I've visited the KS & GW facilities several times before, apart from a stationary motor testing unit at King Song, I could see no evidence that they do system (including battery pack) dyno testing, whereas Ninebot have a specialised rig with articulated artificial feet to simulate a Rider in lab conditions. There is no question in my mind that the Ninebot R&D facility are much more methodical on carrying out stress testing today.

The topic of today's state-of-the-art power outputs has been discussed at some length before, it's a badly kept secret that the nominal motor output ratings of these motors are not sustainable without irreversible damage at some point along the line. Parasitic heat buildup in the motor coils, switching circuits, wires requires significant active cooling to dissipate this energy. If you throw a 1600Wh Wheel on a Dyno with a continuous >1600W load, it is certain to fail in around 10 minutes (information from an industry insider). 

Why is there the continued claim about lower voltages stressing the cells? For a given cell count, the load-per-cell should be identical regardless of a 60v or 84v setup.

I don't recognise the claim that lower voltages would stress the cells harder. I must have been blind to miss that, but it is totally illogical as a statement. As far as the cells go, the amperage per cell is the only interesting number.

The stresses I'm worried about are wiring and circuits. Overall the tendency in EUCs is too thin wires - and the higher the current, the bigger the problem with thin wires.

If we'd have 8AWG as the standard, and boards to match, the amperage problem wouldn't be a problem at all. Well except for the inherent voltage/torque at speed problem, but I guess even that is something that is dependent of the design...

I really hope Ninebot has done their homework thoroughly, and that the risks of failure are as low as possible.

[Jason McNeil]

Here's the promised video. I bought along a Drone, it made it 10' in the air, then immediately received a warning that all of Beijing, 6,490 sq miles is a no fly zone, so much for that plan! This from the country that gave us DJI. 

 

[Lukasz]

Thank You Jason! 

I have decided to buy this wheel, so, now I am left with many days of waiting for Ninebot to release it and organize EU avaliablity...  I keep fingers crossed that Europe will not stay forgotten. 

Looking forward for more news about the telescopic handle - this the key functionality for me. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Lukasz

[Mono]

On 1/31/2018 at 9:09 PM, WARPed1701D said:

Much revolves around the motor design but the lean of the conversation is higher voltage = faster  and higher current = more torque. 

Though helloworld922 writes "For the same motor, ideally if you apply double the voltage you'll double the no-load speed, double the torque, and quadruple the power.", which is of course perfectly valid. Now our motors are usually operated with a given voltage and the point remains that one can have two motors with exactly the same speed vs torque and power characteristics operated with entirely different baseline voltages, or as Olin Lathrop writes: "Electric motors can be designed over a fairly wide range of voltage and current for the same speed and torque out."

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Here's the promised video. I bought along a Drone, it made it 10' in the air, then immediately received a warning that all of Beijing, 6,490 sq miles is a no fly zone, so much for that plan! This from the country that gave us DJI. 

 

Are those Allen Edmonds Carlyle shoes?

[steve454]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Here's the promised video. I bought along a Drone, it made it 10' in the air, then immediately received a warning that all of Beijing, 6,490 sq miles is a no fly zone, so much for that plan! This from the country that gave us DJI. 

 

Thanks for not disrespecting China.  That looks great!

[Kael]

12 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Here's the promised video. I bought along a Drone, it made it 10' in the air, then immediately received a warning that all of Beijing, 6,490 sq miles is a no fly zone, so much for that plan! This from the country that gave us DJI. 

 

Great video, thanks! Although I was not expecting that accent.

[nute]

 .... me either. Great video, thanks for the info Jason!!

[Rehab1]

On 2/2/2018 at 6:16 PM, Jason McNeil said:

Here's the promised video. I bought along a Drone, it made it 10' in the air, then immediately received a warning that all of Beijing, 6,490 sq miles is a no fly zone, so much for that plan! This from the country that gave us DJI. 

 

Once my friends at NASA have completed forensic work and stitched together some of their classified Beijing satellite imagery we just might have an aerial shot of you riding around.   Given @Hunka Hunka Burning Love‘s resources he might have actual footage through a downlink from his personal satellite  HHBL 1.

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Rehab1

[Scatcat]

On 2018-02-03 at 12:16 AM, Jason McNeil said:

Here's the promised video. I bought along a Drone, it made it 10' in the air, then immediately received a warning that all of Beijing, 6,490 sq miles is a no fly zone, so much for that plan! This from the country that gave us DJI. 

 

I didn't get the least excited watching this... That is not drool spilling down the corner of my mouth... I am not checking my bank account and wondering if we maybe maybe should skip the vacation abroad this summer...

Not at all sir, I am not interested... 

[Cranium]

1 hour ago, Scatcat said:

Not at all sir, I am not interested... 

I'm sure there are specific reasons for this.  I have mine as well and elaborated on mine earlier.  What is this wheel missing that would have interested you?

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, Cranium said:

I'm sure there are specific reasons for this.  I have mine as well and elaborated on mine earlier.  What is this wheel missing that would have interested you?

I think maybe you missed his Emoji ...

[Cranium]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I think maybe you missed his Emoji ...

I guess I did.    For me, between the Ninebot One Z and the KS 18L, I'd choose the latter if I had to choose today.  The Ninebot is better looking but KS has the history of being more reliable.  And I've never heard of any stories of KS abandoning their customers.