Ninebot One Z : Z6-Z8-Z10

[Mono]

15 minutes ago, BA-B8 said:

I think once they go with airless tires or solid foam core inner tubes we won't have to worry about flats anymore

True, but that is not likely going to happen any time soon or even ever in our life time. It hasn't happened for the last 100+ years.

On the general perspective though this is my point. Redundancy is just one way to make a device reliable, replacing unreliable technology with more reliable technology is usually the more effective way.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Mono

[Mono]

16 minutes ago, BA-B8 said:

I think once they go with airless tires or solid foam core inner tubes we won't have to worry about flats anymore

\

This looks like a dirt trap nightmare.

[BA-B8]

12 minutes ago, Mono said:

True, but that is not likely going to happen any time soon or even ever in our life time. It hasn't happened for the last 100+ years.

 

That really depends on how quickly airless tires catch on in China if at all but never say never.  Just because something never happened before doesn't mean it can't happen later, and cleaning dirt out of an airless tire is a no brainer compared to changing out an inner tube.

[duaner]

> That really depends on how quickly airless tires catch on ...

There are substantial disadvantages to airless tires.  https://www.livestrong.com/article/222689-airless-bicycle-tires-review/

[BA-B8]

14 minutes ago, duaner said:

> That really depends on how quickly airless tires catch on ...

There are substantial disadvantages to airless tires.  https://www.livestrong.com/article/222689-airless-bicycle-tires-review/

As with anything there are trade offs.  I think they're heavier and the ride is probably more jarring too I think kinda like runflat tires for cars I guess, but with material and design advances they will get better over time.  Airless tires are already being used widely in bike sharing programs in China.  

 

[Mono]

1 hour ago, BA-B8 said:

Airless tires are already being used widely in bike sharing programs in China. 

Not only in China, actually. Airless tires have been used forever for certain types of inexpensive bicycles and other devices. Yet they have always been second choice in terms of performance when carrying people on wheels. I haven't seen any current technological developments that would give reasons to believe that this changes any time soon. I don't say it's impossible, I am just saying it improbable.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Mono

[Cranium]

11 hours ago, Mono said:

And I am really curious how you would make the tyre redundant. After all, flats have been the by far most common point of "wheel"-failure in my experience, which I also would expect to be the case for any reasonably build non-redundant EUC.

I don't consider a flat tire a wheel failure.  It is a wheel inconvenience that will make you end your ride early.  When I've had a flat I felt it go flat and stopped.  Once I patched it, I'm up and running again at a cost of < $1.  I also keep a spare tube on hand for when a patch won't work.  But since I don't have this happen very often, I don't even carry a patch & tool kit with me.  On my road bike rides, I'm always carrying a patch kit with CO2 cartridges to get me back on the road because my road bike rides are typically > 20 miles.  On long EUC rides I would probably take my repair kit as well.

A failure in the sense that is being talked about would be something that causes the wheel to stop balancing.  There is zero chance of coming to a safe stop on the wheel when this happens.  The best you can hope for is that you were going slow enough at the time and can run it off or can tuck and roll.  These failures would be from the battery (with the BMS), the control board (which houses the MOSFETS, gyro, accelerometer, ) and the motor (which houses the Hall Effect Sensors). 

Redundancy of the batteries has already been more and more common; however, I don't know that a BMS wouldn't cut off a wheel on overcurrent if it all of a sudden had to carry the full load due to the other battery pack's BMS failing.   Anyone know about this?

Redundancy of the motor with the hall effect sensors would be fairly simple to implement but also provide just a little gain in reliability.  But all gains are good.

Redundancy of the control board will provide the most benefit for increased safety and would also be the most complicated and costly to implement since it would also require additional motor changes.  You can read about how Segway achieves it here: http://www.segway.ch/en/infos/technologie.php.  But the result is that a failure of a control board will not result in a crash but would allow the wheel to come to a safe stop.

If Ninebot implements complete redundancy, I'm on board immediately.  If Ninebot does a complete redesign of their electronics, I'll consider them after a long period of time with others being the guinea pigs and if they offer an advantage over other brands.  Anything else and I would not buy or recommend a Ninebot due to the high failures I've personally experienced.

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Cranium said:

I don't consider a flat tire a wheel failure.

Irrespectively of how you call it, it is a serious safety concern when riding an EUC. And it is the most frequent safety hazard which is neither caused by the rider nor by a third party (hence wheel related) if you ride a wheel that is not haunted by obvious safety design weaknesses (yes, they exist).

Though the main point I wanted to make: redundancy is a buzzword and often a stupidly ineffective or inefficient way to improve safety, exceptions granted.

1 hour ago, Cranium said:

Redundancy of the motor with the hall effect sensors would be fairly simple to implement but also provide just a little gain in reliability.  But all gains are good.

Not all gains are good, because there is usually a cost associated to gains and there is only a finite amount of money (and time) that can be spent. Spending the time and money most effectively is the obvious objective.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Mono

[Cranium]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

Irrespectively of how you call it, it is a serious safety concern when riding an EUC. And it is the most frequent safety hazard which is neither caused by the rider nor by a third party (hence wheel related) if you ride a wheel that is not haunted by obvious safety design weaknesses (yes, they exist).

Though the main point I wanted to make: redundancy is a buzzword and often a stupidly ineffective or inefficient way to improve safety, exceptions granted.

Not all gains are good, because there is usually a cost associated to gains and there is only a finite amount of money (and time) that can be spent. Spending the time and money most effectively is the obvious objective.

I don't recall seeing threads in here about people being seriously injured form a flat tire.  Please educate me on this serious issue that I have been unaware of for the past couple of years.  I have just seen wrecks and injuries due to rider error or due to the wheel shutting down from electrical failures.

ALL gains are good in safety with EUCs.  If it costs more money then as a consumer, at least you have a choice you can make.  Pay less for less safety and hope for the best or pay more for a higher level of safety.  That is a choice that isn't available in the EUC market right now.  We are currently just trying to pick the most reliable of the bunch and hope that there aren't any failures and if they are that we don't get hurt too badly.  Or for some of the more adventurous here, the choice is to buy faster wheels even when it may not have a very good track record and hope for the best.

[Mono]

7 hours ago, Cranium said:

ALL gains are good in safety with EUCs.  If it costs more money then as a consumer, at least you have a choice you can make. 

That may be true in virtual reality, but not in real life. Producers have to make choices based on their limited amount of time and money and the predicted demand. Any choice for a certain safety feature will be a choice against another safety features, always, inevitably. Welcome in the real world.

7 hours ago, Cranium said:

We are currently just trying to pick the most reliable of the bunch and hope that there aren't any failures

AFAICS most of "us" (not you and I) pick the most performant ones and hope for the best, even against all obvious evidence.

7 hours ago, Cranium said:

I don't recall seeing threads in here about people being seriously injured form a flat tire.  Please educate me on this serious issue

I tried to, comparing tyre failures with wheel failures which are not due to obvious design weaknesses or rider ignorance or error. It's true, I can't recall any report of serious injuries from any of these two. Of course in case of serious injuries identifying the true reasons is always a delicate issue and rarely an entirely rational discussion.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Mono

[Marty Backe]

Received a short note from Jason who is visiting Ninebot in Beijing. He got to ride the Z series and says that it's going to live up to expectations. So that's exciting.

And reading between the lines, looks like we'll (us in the United States) be able to buy them from EWheels. Exciting.

[WARPed1701D]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Received a short note from Jason who is visiting Ninebot in Beijing. He got to ride the Z series and says that it's going to live up to expectations. So that's exciting.

And reading between the lines, looks like we'll (us in the United States) be able to buy them from EWheels. Exciting.

This is awesome news. I was really expecting the Z would disappoint given the hype it had garnered. Jason's approval (and hopeful supply line) means a great deal. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by WARPed1701D

[Cranium]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Received a short note from Jason who is visiting Ninebot in Beijing. He got to ride the Z series and says that it's going to live up to expectations. So that's exciting.

And reading between the lines, looks like we'll (us in the United States) be able to buy them from EWheels. Exciting.

I wonder what the 'expectations' are?  We'll have to wait to get details once he's back.  

[Marty Backe]

45 minutes ago, Cranium said:

I wonder what the 'expectations' are?  We'll have to wait to get details once he's back.  

I think what he meant were all the expectations that have already been expressed in this thread and elsewhere.

[Lukasz]

Looking forward to hear more info - especially about the handle... Also if You have contact with Jason, (or if Ninebot guys read this forum) maybe You can suggest that we look forward for BT communication to allow the use of WheelLog app.  

Edited January 22, 2018 by Lukasz

[Rehab1]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

And reading between the lines, looks like we'll (us in the United States) be able to buy them from EWheels. Exciting.

Exciting! Can’t wait! @Jason McNeil hide a few Zs in your bags before you return. I’ve already spoken to customs and your clear to go. 

[mezzanine]

Jason's quick note is why I was frustrated when that Russian seller went to China and didn't describe the ride quality in his review video.  All I've needed to know these last months was answered in that one line. 

It's going to be hard to watch the reviews come in and have to hold off for the next year. 

[electricpen]

I might be tempted to get a Z10 so I can round out my wheel stable. I already have a kingsong and gotway wheel, I am missing a ninebot to round out my collection. I would then have one from each of the current major modern manufacturers.

[jojo33]

Do not be too excited about the ONE Z
Because there is a major problem
The tire
For Seway Ninebot Mini & Mini PRO, the tires are tubeless, but they are not good quality
I have a Mini and the Mini PLUS since November, I have 700 km of road, and it is already flat, yet the tires of the Mini PLUS seem to be stronger
but no,
Do you know how Mini tires are repaired? We buy a repair kit like for cars, but in fact, it does not work, the tire is too thin
The wick does not hold

As you can see, if the peaked object gets in between the thick plates of the tire

 

they are strong at SEGWAY NINEBOT for design and electronics,
but for the tires and the quality of the materials they are "crappy " (? thank you google translate)

 

 

Edited January 22, 2018 by jojo33

[jojo33]

in fact, the tires are thin, the raised plates are thick, but the tire is thin

[Cranium]

22 minutes ago, jojo33 said:

in fact, the tires are thin, the raised plates are thick, but the tire is thin

How do you know the rubber thickness of the Z?  Were you able to get one to measure?  If it is an assumption that it will be exactly like the mini then that isn't really a fair assumption.  The tires are completely different.

I'm hoping that they fix electronics issues with more powerful motors, customer service issues when you need to get a repair, add redundancy where no other EUC can compete, and that the tire is decent.  But we need to wait to see what the facts are with the final product before trashing this unreleased product.  Your concerns from past product experience is very valid though.

[jojo33]

40 minutes ago, Cranium said:

Were you able to get one to measure?

impossible i was banned by ninebot china...

Mini Plus is the last mini model, released last summer,  is designed along the Z-ONE, materials and even charging socket are identical
I think the tire of the one z will also be thin; i wish you not , but 18"x4.1"  tubeless tires today doesn't exist on the market, no ? The first design is from Ninebot

Mini Plus tire 70/80- 6.5 doesn't exist in the market, it was designed by ninebot...

That the tires are different in size and appearance is normal (18" vs 11"), but the quality of production will remain the same I think, same factory, same designer, 

In his Mini design diary, Wang, number 2 of Ninebot said is goal was to create a product accessible to young Chinese, at very low price and was the same product on every continent, the same matter, the same tires for highter price .

One Z first customers will be chinese, and young chinese (Mini was sold at 1 millions at his first days in China, and 75% are less than 30 yo)

We will quickly have information on the quality of the tire thanks to the first Chinese users

My opinion is the tires must be of very good quality, it's for our safety (euc users or gyropode users)

but this is my opinion on the subject, and because im furious with my new mini plus tire 

 

[houseofjob]

I honestly wouldn't worry about the rubber thickness of the Z tire.

Up close and personal at the CES booth, the tire treads looked super chunky, and being tubeless, it needs thickness to sustain air pressure.

You really can't compare a 10" tire to something like an 18" or higher, the proportions are way different. For reference, my Monster's 22" tire is legit thick, like a motorcycle tire (in fact, you should be able to fit motorcycle tires on the Monster's 2.75-17 tire sizing).

[Zenko]

7 hours ago, jojo33 said:

I think the tire of the one z will also be thin; i wish you not , but 18"x4.1"  tubeless tires today doesn't exist on the market, no ? The first design is from Ninebot

Mini Plus tire 70/80- 6.5 doesn't exist in the market, it was designed by ninebot...

That the tires are different in size and appearance is normal (18" vs 11"), but the quality of production will remain the same I think, same factory, same designer, 

In his Mini design diary, Wang, number 2 of Ninebot said is goal was to create a product accessible to young Chinese, at very low price and was the same product on every continent, the same matter, the same tires for highter price .

One Z first customers will be chinese, and young chinese (Mini was sold at 1 millions at his first days in China, and 75% are less than 30 yo)

Well that's good and bad news. Good news is price should not be too much (even for french ), bad news is quality will be deteriored.

6 hours ago, houseofjob said:

You really can't compare a 10" tire to something like an 18" or higher, the proportions are way different.

And there's 2 wheel on a mini, when you got only 1 to sit on for OZ, tiny tire means tire getting used faster over km since there's less surface... Yes indeed it's difficult to compare those tires.

What we can hope at least, is coherence between advertise and purpose of the wheel. Ninebot mini isn't really meant to... offroad isn't it ? Whereas One Z is clearly made for being a tank and take some dirty road. It would be surprising to have a fail design at this part... besides, with all the tests they have been doing since those months : come on, wouldn't they spot that problem ?

In the end, I really don't care that much since I would only use it for clean urban ride (oops, selfish me ). But I guess there will be still ways to compensate the poor quality tire if it really is that bad. I'm more interested in electronics safety...

I've had many punctures but nothing that made me jump of my wheel, anyone had huge puncture that make you lose your balance ?

[jojo33]

2 hours ago, Zenko said:

I've had many punctures but nothing that made me jump of my wheel, anyone had huge puncture that make you lose your balance ?

In my tubeless tires I put preventive liquid silicone anti-puncture, it prevents the air to escape in case of puncture.
On the old model I had 5 punctures in a week !
I felt that slightly instability
but there are two wheels
With a wheel, a speed greater than 25kmh it's going to be a new experience

8 hours ago, houseofjob said:

You really can't compare a 10" tire to something like an 18"

i agree, i cant compare by size, but by production aspect...you would have seen the tires of my MINI PLUS in November, they were hard, solid, I shouted: "wahou super quality"
700 km later, they became soft, the gum is soft to the touch. With Mini you can ride offroad too, but punctures generally happened on cycle paths (bottles broken etc) 

Well, i wish this One Z meets all expectations in terms of quality, because if SEGWAY NINEBOT does not offer quality,   after all this enthusiasm raised by the arrival of this new model,
they bury themselves.