Ninebot One Z : Z6-Z8-Z10

[Toshio Uemura]

17 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I remember @Linnea Lin Gotway saying that it basically would be crazy and not responsible for a EUC maker to make a wheel capable of that speed, but we seem to be slowing creeping up to that point.  I've always wondered what the top ceiling might be for a one wheeled vehicle.  Running off a 100 kph faceplant due to a wheel failure isn't going to be good!  

I'm a bit scared to push my Tesla above 35 kph without getting some more safety gear.  The lean required to eek out 10-15 more kph is not something I'm quite used to yet.  Hitting an unexpected pothole or road crack could ruin your day very quickly. Maybe with more time it will come eventually.  You really have to know the pathway/road conditions intimately to avoid being launched into the air due to a sudden sidewalk heave/road pothole that you don't see in time.

I guess though with motorcycles their top speeds are way higher than practical riding speeds so who knows, maybe there still is some bragging room that people will want to say that they own an EUC that has a top speed of 100 kph.  They may never ride anywhere close to that speed, but it's cool to be able to own something that can.  I know @yourtoys7 said he'd definitely buy one, but that might have changed after his recent accident (?).

Agreeing with most of what you just wrote, especially with the "top speed prestige ownership", which might be the motor behind new EUC developments thriving for the highest possible speeds, I still think there always will be people who can't resist the magic spell of speed. Speed is a drug! Last month near Shizuoka a motorbike missiled past me when I was cruising to Tokyo on the new Shin-Meishin Highway in my Cayenne with 210 km/h (don't tell anyone! ?). This guy (or girl) must have gone 220-230 km/h! And I resisted racing him/her, 'cause it might have pushed them over their limits. On two wheels such speeds are crazy, BUT I still admired his courage and envied him for the adrenaline rush he must have had. Such thinking and behavior (mine included!) is sick and needs harsh therapy, I know AND speed is a drug!

Now since there are skateboarders going downhill with longboards at 100+ km/h on public mountain roads, there will be EUC riders (I suppose the first will be Russian ?) who dare to challenge such speeds once the hardware is there. Nowadays people dare to climb Mount Everest in wheel chairs.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

With higher speed EUCs I think we'll need to have some sort of suspension system as it would be pretty brutal trying to maintain control at higher speeds.  Imagine disconnecting and removing the shock/spring/strut assemblies on your Cayenne and drive at 100 kph for any distance.

Even if such a wheel could be engineered, where could you ride it at 100 kph?  You likely would need a license and insurance as it wouldn't be possible to stick to bike paths.  Making it road worthy would require signal lights and some foot attachments to the pedals as there's no way with all the bumps you can just rely on griptape.  With the wind resistance you also would be buffeted so it might not be  even be possible.  With the cruise control set on 100 kph try standing on the roof of your car... likely not possible... unless there was some sort of back bracing and belt system...

Ultimately I think even the speed demons in the crowd will find that a certain speed will be the limit even though the wheel is capable to go even faster.  There likely is a practical upper limit on these EUCs.  I think we're probably fairly close to it.  Making them go any faster is like trying to make a Honda Accord go at 300 kph when 0 to 240 kph is plenty fast.  It might be possible, but would it be practical and useful to do so for the masses?

[zugu]

Yes, I think that the physical rideable security limit for the actual EUC it's almost be reached. ..  Even though devices like GW Tesla,  Monster, M-Super... KS18s and RW GT16 are able to keep sustainable speeds over 45km/h, at last I see that the most part of owners stay in a mean of 30-35Km/h founding in that speed the marriage among comfort, enjoying,  usability and security 

[Toshio Uemura]

4 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

With higher speed EUCs I think we'll need to have some sort of suspension system as it would be pretty brutal trying to maintain control at higher speeds.  Imagine disconnecting and removing the shock/spring/strut assemblies on your Cayenne and drive at 100 kph for any distance.

Even if such a wheel could be engineered, where could you ride it at 100 kph?  You likely would need a license and insurance as it wouldn't be possible to stick to bike paths.  Making it road worthy would require signal lights and some foot attachments to the pedals as there's no way with all the bumps you can just rely on griptape.  With the wind resistance you also would be buffeted so it might not be  even be possible.  With the cruise control set on 100 kph try standing on the roof of your car... likely not possible... unless there was some sort of back bracing and belt system...

Ultimately I think even the speed demons in the crowd will find that a certain speed will be the limit even though the wheel is capable to go even faster.  There likely is a practical upper limit on these EUCs.  I think we're probably fairly close to it.  Making them go any faster is like trying to make a Honda Accord go at 300 kph when 0 to 240 kph is plenty fast.  It might be possible, but would it be practical and useful to do so for the masses?

What you say is probably realistic and I agree there will be and must be a speed limit for me and the masses. But what you say about shock/spring/strut (it's air-suspension by the way ? ) and wind resistance I wouldn't be that sure.

Look at this: 

 

I strongly believe we will see someone do this in a decade or so on an EUC. It will probably not be soon and it will definitely not be me ?, but I would love to see some Pro stuntman do it an pray that he won't fail trying.

[Toshio Uemura]

2 hours ago, zugu said:

Yes, I think that the physical rideable security limit for the actual EUC it's almost be reached. ..  Even though devices like GW Tesla,  Monster, M-Super... KS18s and RW GT16 are able to keep sustainable speeds over 45km/h, at last I see that the most part of owners stay in a mean of 30-35Km/h founding in that speed the marriage among comfort, enjoying,  usability and security 

With the EUC we finally found back to slow down things a little to notice the beauty of little things along the way the smile of a child or an old lady we pass and with slow speeds there is still lots of excitement while moving around. You are probably right with the speed you mention. It's perfect for the majority of riders.

[meepmeepmayer]

9 hours ago, zugu said:

I still use my Solowheel Xtreme and it goes at 22km/h with a peak of 24km/h   old Classic 1000w and 1500w firmwares went to 16km/h ... not the lovely Xtreme

Thanks. That's slightly less worse. Unfortunately, the only thing it has going for it are the looks (which necessitate a tiny battery).

[Scatcat]

With the current construction 50 kph is about as fast as you can go unless you're on a perfectly flat air-strip. The chatter and vibrations going faster would be very hard on the legs and knees, and the risks of disconnecting from the pedals even hitting small pot-holes, stones, cracks and bumps are outright scary.

If we want to go even faster than 40-50 kph/25-32mph, there are a number of things that has to change:

• Suspension - but I suspect it would have been coupled in some way, not to introduce balance problems if the pedals flex unevenly.
• Better pedals - pedals that support the whole foot, where your foot sits securely where you place it even in wet and muddy conditions.
• Better shafts and pedal arms - both heavy duty and without any tendencies to crack or get loose.
• Speed margin - you need a higher torque reserve as cutouts become exponentially more dangerous as speeds go up.
• Power margin - the faster you go, the harder it is to brake fast enough when you need it. You need to KNOW that over-leaning is a non-issue and that the limits of breaking are just dependent on your balance and leg strength.
• Redundancy - again, cutouts are unacceptable. Reliance on a single circuit for power, where even one MOSFET popping will mean an involuntary low altitude unpowered flight without wings...
• MC-type tyres - this is why I find the NBZ take refreshing. It seems NB have realised that EUCs are more akin to MCs than to normal bikes. Especially in terrain or at high speeds. If 4.1" is too wide or not is too early to say, but I can say I find 2.125 very much on the narrow side.

Even so I'd say that we're getting close to the practical limits of speed for a person standing unanchored on a rather light one-wheel platform - however good the hardware. Going fast shouldn't be that big of a problem per se. As long as the EUC is really well balanced and the wheel mass is sufficient for gyroscopic effect, you could probably go pretty darn fast. The problems crops up when you have to control the EUC at high speed.

There is a limit to the grip you can have available with a single rounded profile wheel. After all the actual area touching the ground isn't much bigger than a thumbprint or two. And to turn or brake you're limited to the powers and grip available with your body weight at an angle. Any slippage at high speed and you're done.

A bigger heavier wheel would ease some of that, but would also be a lot harder to control. Especially the movement of panic braking, where you let the wheel move in front of you and then push for "T' Lōrde And His Angels"... 

I think we may see faster wheels rather sooner than later, but to actually be able to use that speed isn't the same thing as being able to use it.

[Toshio Uemura]

3 hours ago, Scatcat said:

MC-type tyres - this is why I find the NBZ take refreshing. It seems NB have realised that EUCs are more akin to MCs than to normal bikes. Especially in terrain or at high speeds. If 4.1" is too wide or not is too early to say, but I can say I find 2.125 very much on the narrow side.

In the near future we might see a completely new type of tire for EUCs, the one that also can move sideways. Honda is already doing R&D in that direction:

 

[Imarconi]

New short review for the Z

 

 

[EUCMania]

The "cracking sound" at low speed is also reported in a Chinese post in their unicycle forum about a month ago. The sound was thought to be produced by the dual hall sensor system that may give not so uniform, possibly conflicting signals. I imagine that the positions of each pair of hall sensors differ a little, and hence the times they fire are a little different. At low speed, the difference in time is longer. This difference makes it harder for the control board to act in one way or another.

I think a better way is to use 3 parallel sets of hall sensors, ie use one 3-hall-sensors-group  in place of the current 1 hall sensor, and use the average of the two closest signals within the tolerance range( proportion to speed or expected speed) to make control decision. In terms of probability of failure, suppose the chance for 1 hall sensor to misfire is p ( say p = 0.0001 ), then for the single-set-hall-sensor motor to fail is A=1 - (1-p)^3 because there are 3 sensors and one misfires then motor misbehaves. For a 3-sets-sensors to misfire,  one of the 3 3-parallel-sensor-group  to misfire. The probability for such event is 1 - (1 - q)^3 where q = Probability( 2 or more of 3 sensors misbehave ) = p^3 + 3p^2(1-p) = p^2*(3-2p). This gives the failure rate of B = 1 - (1-q)^3  approximately 3q = 3p^2*(3-2p) approximately 6p^2. The probability for single hall sensor set to fail is approximately A = 3p. The improvement A:B = 1:3p = 1: 0.0003. In other words, for every one occurrence of the single-hall-sensor-set to misbehave, there is only 0.0003 occurrence of misbehavior for the 3-parallel-sensor sets. This is a huge improvement.

I hope 9BZ to succeed in making hall sensor redundancy true. I wish that its wide tubeless tire can absorb stronger shocks. I want NB1Z to include battery monitor /diagnosis system that can track the health of each battery cell. I pray for the rumor that NB1Z's motor torque is 120Nm+ to be true( in comparison RW's torue is about 50Nm?). These four features should be the direction to go and should be the characteristics of the next generation of EUCs. These 4 features will make EUCs much safer! Since Segway already had dual sets of hall sensors ( I heard ), it may not be very difficult for NB to use the tech in EUCs.

Talking about EUC generations, I think the EUC is already in generation 2. The generation 1 EUCs are represented Solowheel, plus many clones, Airwheel, IPS. They demonstrated the basic working principles. The 2nd generation is represented by 9B1s followed by IM, who made EUCs beautiful with quality construction and reasonably reliable and inexpensive. GW pushes in the performance direction by increasing motor power and battery size. KS integrates good points about NB1 and GW and IM and combines them. Now, NB1Z is trying to make breakthroughs into Generation III for EUCs. We should applause its effort and reward it if delivered. 

  While the Russian distributor's video review is not positive, I still hope the better for the NB1Z. The unit he tried was an early prototype. 9B is aware of the issue and is trying to fix it. Now NB1Z is due for beta testing around the end of Dec ( rumor says). I will wait for the review. It is strange for the timing of releasing this old review. I guess he wants customers to buy his existing stock rather than waiting for NB1Zs.

Edited December 3, 2017 by EUCMania

[US69]

24 minutes ago, EUCMania said:

t is strange for the timing of releasing this old review. I guess he wants customers to buy his existing stock rather than waiting for NB1Zs.

Sorry, i dont think that....

Like he said, he wasnt allowed to post any further, as it was restricted by ninebot. He also visited the 9B facality and made a video about that. As he is Ninebot distributor himself why should he make it more worse at is is? I see the eco-drift as one of the sellers who is pushing our loved devices...and that in a good way

And i dont see this "hands on" negativ or positive anyway,  its just a honest report......without much speculation.

A "each cell" diagnosing system would be nice...but we allready have that in our BMS,s its just that it isnt reported properly to the board/app.

That system would be a big step for 9b...as the e plus did not even have a balancing on the BMS :-)

[EUCMania]

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

A "each cell" diagnosing system would be nice...but we allready have that in our BMS,s

2

Really? I think current BMSs monitor each parallel block. They do not do pre-riding test by test-loading each cell to determine its health

Edited December 4, 2017 by EUCMania

[litewave]

22 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I remember @Linnea Lin Gotway saying that it basically would be crazy and not responsible for a EUC maker to make a wheel capable of that speed, but we seem to be slowly creeping up to that point.  I've always wondered what the top ceiling might be for a one wheeled vehicle.  Running off a 100 kph faceplant due to a wheel failure isn't going to be good!  

I'm a bit scared to push my Tesla above 35 kph without getting some more safety gear.  The lean required to eek out 10-15 more kph is not something I'm quite used to yet.  Hitting an unexpected pothole or road crack could ruin your day very quickly. Maybe with more time it will come eventually.  You really have to know the pathway/road conditions intimately to avoid being launched into the air due to a sudden sidewalk heave/road pothole that you don't see in time.

I guess though with motorcycles their top speeds are way higher than practical riding speeds so who knows, maybe there still is some bragging room that people will want to say that they own an EUC that has a top speed of 100 kph.  They may never ride anywhere close to that speed, but it's cool to be able to own something that can.  I know @yourtoys7 said he'd definitely buy one, but that might have changed after his recent accident (?).  People buy Kawasaki Hayabusa's that go 312 kph, but who rides at that speed ever?

Kawasaki makes a Hayabusa now?  I think 100kph is possible for an EUC drone, but not with a rider in the traditional upright position. Still, I can imagine @EUC Extreme being the first – if a manufacturer were to build an experimental prototype and sponsor him .

Edited December 4, 2017 by litewave

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Whoops don't know what the brain was thinking.   Suzuki Hayabusa!  I think I was too distracted by the bouncing cleavage in Hayabusa's girl's video to type correctly!  

@Toshio Uemura You do have a good point.  If those skateboarders can achieve 80-100 kph going downhill, why couldn't an EUC rider with a larger tire do the same on a flat road?  I would guess if the EUC rider could lean down to lower their centre of gravity and reduce their air drag profile that would help.  

People ski downhill at 254 kph so you're likely right that it should theoretically be possible on an EUC as long as the wheel can balance well at 100 kph.  From a practical standpoint though how many people willing to try doing that and where they could do so safely and legally are probably quite limited.  Any takers?  

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Kael]

12 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Whoops don't know what the brain was thinking.   Suzuki Hayabusa!  I think I was too distracted by the bouncing cleavage in Hayabusa's girl's video to type correctly!  

@Toshio Uemura You do have a good point.  If those skateboarders can achieve 80-100 kph going downhill, why couldn't an EUC rider with a larger tire do the same on a flat road?  I would guess if the EUC rider could lean down to lower their centre of gravity and reduce their air drag profile that would help.  

People ski downhill at 254 kph so you're likely right that it should theoretically be possible on an EUC as long as the wheel can balance well at 100 kph.  From a practical standpoint though how many people willing to try doing that and where they could do so safely and legally are probably quite limited.  Any takers?  

 

That skiing video gives me sweaty palms just watching! Amazing run.

 

The trouble with high speed on EUCs is how you are 100% reliant on the electronics to be working. It's like flying a fighter jet - if something fails, chances are you can't coast to a landing. Conversely however, it's quite fortunate how mechanically simple an EUC is; there's not a lot than can break.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Kael

[Scatcat]

4 hours ago, Kael said:

That skiing video gives me sweaty palms just watching! Amazing run.

 

The trouble with high speed on EUCs is how you are 100% reliant on the electronics to be working. It's like flying a fighter jet - if something fails, chances are you can't coast to a landing. Conversely however, it's quite lucky how mechanically simple an EUC is; there's not a lot than can break.

Yes, but a fighter pilot at least has a parachute...

[EUC Extreme]

After 10 years everyone laughs at it, with the EUC peak speed just 50km / h.

[EUCGUY]

On 2.12.2017 at 1:35 PM, mezzanine said:

You make a good point about the difficulty of providing quality analysis with such a limited opportunity to ride the wheel.  It's more of a general frustration that bubbled over because of my excitement about possibly getting early insight on the Z series, only to be disappointed. 

If I spent thousands to travel to China to test the prototype, I would welcome feedback about how to improve my video impressions, purely from a business perspective.  It's tough as an EUC buyer because you're often limited by the quality of information available.  It's an inherent evil of such a niche market.  

 

I'm more optimistic about the benefits of the tubeless wider tire.  I especially think it's going to make riding at higher speeds more stable.  Whereas most 18" wheels are comfortable up to 35km/h, I expect this one will feel stable up to 45km/h, which is why I predicted that the first EUC-related fatality, if it hasn't already happened, will happen because on this wheel. 

I agree about the advantage KS/Gotway have in being able to make incremental and evolutionary changes to their products due to being active in the market.  I think this really long testing phase will compensate for Ninebot having been out of the high end market, though. 

     

 

 

  

" Whereas most 18" wheels are comfortable up to 35km/h,"
What? On my 18" msuper v3 it feels suuuper stable and safe even at 45 kmh. the faster i ride, the more stable it is. 

[yourtoys7]

On 12/2/2017 at 9:09 PM, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I remember @Linnea Lin Gotway saying that it basically would be crazy and not responsible for a EUC maker to make a wheel capable of that speed, but we seem to be slowly creeping up to that point.  I've always wondered what the top ceiling might be for a one wheeled vehicle.  Running off a 100 kph faceplant due to a wheel failure isn't going to be good!  

I'm a bit scared to push my Tesla above 35 kph without getting some more safety gear.  The lean required to eek out 10-15 more kph is not something I'm quite used to yet.  Hitting an unexpected pothole or road crack could ruin your day very quickly. Maybe with more time it will come eventually.  You really have to know the pathway/road conditions intimately to avoid being launched into the air due to a sudden sidewalk heave/road pothole that you don't see in time.

I guess though with motorcycles their top speeds are way higher than practical riding speeds so who knows, maybe there still is some bragging room that people will want to say that they own an EUC that has a top speed of 100 kph.  They may never ride anywhere close to that speed, but it's cool to be able to own something that can.  I know @yourtoys7 said he'd definitely buy one, but that might have changed after his recent accident (?).  People buy Kawasaki Hayabusa's that go 312 kph, but who rides at that speed ever?

Nothing changed.... I would gladly buy one and would push it at times to test it, what did change is:  better safety gear and I will NOT buy if it hasn't been tested and proven by company and users. 

my fall was completely user mistake and it happens all the time on bicycles and motorcycles, I just would like to see the device to be more safe, thats all

Today was the first time I went for a ride after the fall, I was going slow I thought, came home and checked my app, 38km/h max was reached.... sure didn't feel like it.

[Scatcat]

In some ways it's a pity that the physics of electric motors preclude making a EUC without a hard limit speed-wise. It's also a pity that torque and maximum RPM are competing properties.

Maybe if there was no such problems, people would be more interested in how the construction, balance and stability affects practical top speed. We would see less people tempting fate to try out "the max", and less temptation for mfg's to go for numbers rather than safely usable speed.

Suppose we had a wheel with a motor that on paper could do 100 mph, then it would be more or less self-evident that the practical top speed are dependent on geometry and balance, not the circuit and motor.

[jojo33]

On 02/11/2017 at 4:09 PM, EUCMania said:

the link in French, it is understandable, but horrible to read

i agree...

 

 

[jojo33]

last pics find today

I would not want to get up in the morning with that between my legs

 

 

[steve454]

45 minutes ago, jojo33 said:

last pics find today

I would not want to get up in the morning with that between my legs

 

 

In the second photo, look at the shoes.  They look like the wrong feet are on the legs, left foot on right leg, right foot on left leg.

Also it looks like they are still using the same pedals as the ninebot one E+, good pedals but I was hoping they would design new larger pedals.

[LanghamP]

At the higher speeds you would not stand on the EUC; you'd sit in it. That'd allow the EUC to still balance you even with some drastic power changes over the course of, say, a bumpy road where the wheel does some slipping. My guess is there will be suspension but not in the traditional sense of only up and down. You'd also be able to pivot the wheel left right because that would be the only way of countersteering a big heavy wheel at speed while sitting down. 

The future EUC could still be allowed on sidewalks and trails despite its high top speed because the form factor is small enough to fit between the feet. 

My guess is 50 miles at 50 mph miles, twice the size of the present MSuper, with suspension, usable everywhere, within five years. 

[zugu]

6 hours ago, jojo33 said:

last pics find today

I would not want to get up in the morning with that between my legs

 

 

Love it so "Fat".. ... can't wait to try it