Kingsong s20 Cut out FIRE (New York)

[Forwardnbak]

If there was damage in the prior crash. I would hope that with a model designed to be off-road and maybe take a slide or two/bang a rock. Maybe they could offer a little more battery protection? as I’m sure they aim to with the production run.. I hope
 

[fryman]

1 hour ago, Chester Copperpot said:

To my mind, a plausible scenario is that the high speed crash 2 weeks prior caused physical damage to one or more cells inside the pack. They remained functional but compromised.

After 2 more weeks of use and heating one finally failed on this ride and vented. This would be the pop sounds that was heard and caused the cutout and crash.

The thermal energy trapped inside the battery case and/or possibly an electrical short circuit created by the exploded cell rapidly results in the chain reaction.

Just an opinion. 

Its unfortunate they did not check the smart BMS after the accident, then we would know for sure.

[Grimm10]

The clunking after the fall, which preceded the board smoking, sounds like the same motor clunking issue that Wrong Way encountered while climbing up stairs here:

Plus on U-Stride, listen to what he says here:

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Grimm10

[eucVibes]

Hubert is PISSED 😤 😡 

[eucVibes]

Another viewpoint  by the 3rd rider @ManontheMove

@

[supercurio]

27 minutes ago, eucVibes said:

Another viewpoint  by the 3rd rider @ManontheMove

The sound is pretty clear on that one.

What can explain the motor turning slightly, like it's still driven by the board at 2:57 and onwards?
Even when the cells start to vent.

Edited March 29, 2022 by supercurio

[Grimm10]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

The sound is pretty clear on that one.

What can explain the motor turning slightly, like it's still driven by the board at 2:57 and onwards?
Even when the cells start to vent.

Probably just needs a small software update.  

[mrelwood]

18 hours ago, Tryptych said:

Some reminders:

1. This is a demo wheel that was sent out for testing purposes. Calm down.

2. ZERO production units have had this issue.

3. Only this one demo out of 20 (or is it 40?) that exist in the world have had this problem (right?).

1. That doesn’t mean that a properly designed and built demo unit would have this issue.

2. Production units were supposed to be based on this unit that burst into flames.

3. I think it would be more correct to assume that all of the demo units have the same underlying issue, but this is so far the only one where the issue has been recreated.

18 hours ago, Tryptych said:

4. We have no way of knowing 100% what this test unit went through. NYC is not known for being gentle on demo units.

4. I don’t think the other demo units the NYC crew has built their reputation on have busted into flames before. The GW fires were personally owned production units.

18 hours ago, Tryptych said:

This is exactly why companies need to do extensive QC and in this aspect KS is doing a great job.

Do you think that KS planned on doing their QC steps only after sending out demo units? That doesn’t sound right to me. QC is not based on a few random testers across the globe. It needs to be a strict process that prevents issues like this from happening, not a process to fix the issues that random testers find.

[RagingGrandpa]

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

What can explain the motor turning slightly, like it's still driven by the board at 2:57 and onwards?

Any voltage applied to the motor leads will cause some amount of motor force and therefore jiggling.
I bet the arcing and destruction happening up at the controller included some moments of energizing the motor wires, since they're attached to the PCB that's being blasted apart. 
(This has happened in other EUC's when controllers do the "popcorn sounds"-type controller failure... no special concern.)

[Ronin Ryder]

Too many messages to quote, but for everyone who thinks a firmware update only can fix this issue, that's a one way to massive disappointment. Also it has been repeated time and time again but let's state it again, Production is usually very close to Demo unit, as there is not enough time to change components, all the materials have already been ordered on an industrial scale. So if prod versions are released at a date close to this fire incident, thats a big NO NO in my book. The "firmware fix in mass production" trick is an old one, last used in November by Veteran for the Abrams cutouts issues, and we all know the result months after, the cutouts keep happening....

Edited March 29, 2022 by Ronin Ryder

[meepmeepmayer]

Wow that is one spectacular fire. King Song S20 Eagle Flamethrower. Imagine if that had been indoors! 

Also props to the camera guy for keeping the camera pointed.

[Curt8892]

29 minutes ago, Ronin Ryder said:

Too many messages to quote, but for everyone who thinks a firmware update only can fix this issue, that's a one way to massive disappointment. Also it has been repeated time and time again but let's state it again, Production is usually very close to Demo unit, as there is not enough time to change components, all the materials have already been ordered on an industrial scale. So if prod versions are released at a date close to this fire incident, thats a big NO NO in my book. The "firmware fix in mass production" trick is an old one, last used in November by Veteran for the Abrams cutouts issues, and we all know the result months after, the cutouts keep happening....

Year old newbie, I have heard that these batteries and packs are made by a few companies. Even the announcement by Begode that the three battery options are going to be made by a reputable company but then I heard that this company has been making the battery packs for most companies anyway. 

 

So is it possible that the battery packs have QC issues and it could have happened to anyone of these EUC companies. 

 

It sounds like the whole Chines industry has issues with their QC. I am just hoping when the S20 comes out they at least know what the issue is and if that means waiting longer for a great product to come out it will be worth it.

 

I year ago I did not know anything about EUCs so waiting will not bother me. I will just ride my S18 and be happy.

[meepmeepmayer]

Sounds to me either the board failed and shorted the battery for a loooong time (which should not be possible flat-out) till the fire started, or the battery pack was compromised and some small input from the board (or the crash? Direct impact on battery box?) made it short itself.

Edited March 29, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[Forwardnbak]

I have people I trust saying it’s ok wheel, Kingsong will step up to fix this. 
 

I have people I trust saying, this is not just software and hardware can’t support  etc

I’m reactive person, but trying not to react and wait it out.

 

either way, I was hoping Kingsong might have pushed the firmware, range, power a little harder in production units. 
whatever happens here I can’t really see them deciding to push anything on this model. Mostly after this, they may just move to be safer/even more wound back.

still haven’t cancelled my order but each day I think a lot and try to read all your knowledge. Such a range of opinion and hate/support on this. 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Forwardnbak

[supercurio]

@Forwardnbak yes let's keep calm and wait to assess what Kingsong will say on April 1st before deciding.

Inmotion taught us with the glaring V12 MOSFET crisis that we can't simply assume that a wheel OEM who made rather safe and robust wheels so far can't mess it up when they decide to push the envelop beyond their comfort zone for the first time.

We'll see then if their claims and promises check out with our crowed-sourced community analysis.

There's two factors which would encourage people to keep their pre-order even if they lost confidence:

• This S20 is meant to be the wheel for their summer season
• There was a significant saving on the pre-order price

Probably these two reasons will make a bunch of us keep the pre-order when we know we should actually wait. It's a gamble.

[Not Sure]

I'm holding on to my pre-order from ewheels to see how this plays out. It's only $100 so why not?

Also, does anybody know what happened to the first 40 wheels ewheels had expected to arrive late february?. I know I got the email and I believe somebody posted it here a while back

[xorbe]

Hey our bad guys, we forgot to remove the HaltAndCatchFire routine!

[meepmeepmayer]

On a lighter note, the timing of the scooter guy in the background in @Hsiang's video couldn't be more slapstick-worthy He comes riding along and stops at the light, looks at the S20 lying there, probably going "Huh what's this?", and right then the wheel starts spewing fire. His reaction is pretty good.

(Timecoded at 10:09)

Edited March 30, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[Rawnei]

8 hours ago, supercurio said:

@Forwardnbak yes let's keep calm and wait to assess what Kingsong will say on April 1st before deciding.

Inmotion taught us with the glaring V12 MOSFET crisis that we can't simply assume that a wheel OEM who made rather safe and robust wheels so far can't mess it up when they decide to push the envelop beyond their comfort zone for the first time.

We'll see then if their claims and promises check out with our crowed-sourced community analysis.

There's two factors which would encourage people to keep their pre-order even if they lost confidence:

• This S20 is meant to be the wheel for their summer season
• There was a significant saving on the pre-order price

Probably these two reasons will make a bunch of us keep the pre-order when we know we should actually wait. It's a gamble.

Yeah, April 1st will be a pivoting moment for what to do, what will the fix be? It's in 2 days only, curiosity rising..

[Forwardnbak]

I kinda just chatted in a video about to edit that as much as I would be disappointed. I’d rather they just take as long/delay as much as needed to go above and beyond on this wheel now. 

I kinda still really want a good honest admission from KS if it is more than software based. 
I want to trust them so when they make a statement I don’t want to run to the forums and see people I think know their tech disagree with them. 

[Finn Bjerke]

Whats the point of waiting for a serious investigation? Making WILD ASSUMPTIONS and CRAZY ACCUSATIONS plus VICTIM BLAMING is much more FUN!

Lets go nuts and blame someone random for the fun of it: 
Its NEW YORKs fault this happened, U-Stride is WILD and addicted to SPEED, the rain was too hard and filled with acid, streets are too bumpy. Hsiang did this to promote more videos and waist another 15 minutes of our lives, Chooch pissed on the suspension system, Marty send aliens from Mars to the assembly line. Its just everybody elses fault.    


PS: A note for Swedish people and other folks with no sense of humour: the above statement was sarcasm
PPS: They dont have sarcasm in Sweden, they are to polite for that
PPPS: I never tell a lie. 
PPPPS: I want V13 not S20. 
PPPPPS: I now nothing about V13 but too much about S20!
PPPPPPS: Im a spineless creep so I bloody well need suspension in order to avoid back ache. 

[Robse]

Fact is: We're all just test pilots - the only difference between us and Charles Elwood "Chuck" Yeager
is that Chuck got paid for his work - the rest of us have to pay nicely to be allowed to test.
And with the right amount of luck, we can both burn down our house and be hospitalized.

 

ehhh...

;-)

[Rawnei]

34 minutes ago, Robse said:

Fact is: We're all just test pilots - the only difference between us and Charles Elwood "Chuck" Yeager
is that Chuck got paid for his work - the rest of us have to pay nicely to be allowed to test.
And with the right amount of luck, we can both burn down our house and be hospitalized.

 

ehhh...

;-)

Another big difference is that military hand funding from the state while Chinese manufactures rely on funding from us.

[U-Stride]

On 3/28/2022 at 11:43 AM, supercurio said:

The S20 was fully charged initially.

U-Stride was conducting this max acceleration/max breaking stress test on a nearly full charge, the cut-out happened 1:15 after the beginning of the ride.
Enough to drain the battery a little but not that much.

It's frankly a bad idea to repeat hard breaking test on a nearly full battery and with any wheel.
The voltage from regen can shoot way beyond the 126V spec in that case.

It changes my perspective a bit, to me there's a component of user error here.

However everything else:

• lack of beeps to alert of over-voltage condition
• escalation to any kind of fire has no reason to happen

I would agree only if this was absolutely true, from this simple test it appears kingsong or maybe this particular wheel is not optimized for performance. I say this because I still have my pre-production msp torque and ride this way on my gotway machines with no issues. Whats interesting is I was alot nicer to this wheel than any of my gotway wheels and yes on full charge. In eithercase here is what happened. 

 

Here is what happened 

1. I made several successive Hard accelerations with minor to hard braking initially to feel out the motors power delivery 

2. Hard acceleration but gradual still with some torquing 

3. 1st Hard braking attempt at high speed where I felt the motor slipping. I then let off so it catches itself 

4. About 2 seconds after it catches itself I attempt another hard braking at speed where the motor slipped again and right after the 2nd slip, I felt/heard a loud pop. 

5. The wheel looses balancing ability 

6. While on it's side the wheel shakes jittery like 

7. Few seconds later sound of seething 

8. Smoke appears 

9. Explosion of fire 🔥 

Edited March 30, 2022 by U-Stride
Double content

[U-Stride]

On 3/28/2022 at 8:30 PM, fryman said:

Can we get another S20 tester to test their wheel with the same riding style?

That would be ideal. I would love to try it again and I'm pretty confident it will happen again. It seems to be a component quality issue or even lack thereof i.e fuse

Edited March 30, 2022 by mrelwood
Double content.