Kingsong s20 Cut out FIRE (New York)

[supercurio]

@RagingGrandpa In Adam's teardown, it was mentioned to be SMD fuses which are fast acting. Therefore actually capable of limiting a lot closer to 60A in case of short.

Also I thought that Kingsong BMS, like many others PEV BMS would use their MOS to disconnect the output if it's shorted.
Could someone confirm?
In that case, the 60A fuse would be only a safety mechanism on top.

Edited March 27, 2022 by supercurio

[RagingGrandpa]

"fast acting" relative to other larger melting fuses... But all melting fuses are slow

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Littelfuse/0456060DRSDE

(opening in 1sec at 2x rating is considered "fast") 

[Finn Bjerke]

Maybe Inmotion V13 can beat Putin in some weird exploding way? new wheels are taking us all to the nmext level ?

More volts more fire ...... Begode Master is 136V...... 

I added music to the burning EUC videos for the fun of it...  

 

 

[Paul A]

Life saving safety switches now used instead of fuses in housing.

Could something similar be used in EUCs?

[RagingGrandpa]

Melting fuses are extremely reliable, just what we want with EUCs. 

A nuisance trip of a logic-based interrupter would result in a crash.

We just need to size fuses properly

Sherman with its original 50A-per-5-cells fuses had numerous violent board failures and zero pack fires... but that fuse would pass just 20A per cell (for 1 second). Here with S20, it's much more extreme (60A per cell).

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[RagingGrandpa]

27 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Also I thought that Kingsong BMS, like many others PEV BMS would use their MOS to disconnect the output if it's shorted

Good point. So next we'd like to know- what is the shutoff threshold? And does it still work if the controller has become faulty?

[Forwardnbak]

Can I ask what is the best way to respond of this happens in a place where it will go bad real quick. 
 

would you say, smother with dirt? Rocks? If I’m the bush to try to contain it? 
 

in a house? Smother it? If you don’t have fire extinguisher? 

Is water bad on this type of fire? 

is there any safe way you could move a burning wheel? Push it with a pole? 

should you carry a fire blanket as a little insurance to smother a fire if it happened. 

just what do you do if all of a sudden your new wheel explodes in your house, Is there a best case management plan? 
 

 

 

[RagingGrandpa]

15 hours ago, Forwardnbak said:

Can I ask what is the best way to respond of this happens in a place where it will go bad real quick. 

Move it outdoors.

How? Get creative:
  Shove it with a chair.
  Drag it with a rug. 
  Push it with a shovel. 
  Snag it with a coat hanger. 
  Yeet it thru a window.

But you only have as long as you can hold your breath, to try. Then shut the doors and evac.

Water won't hurt but also won't help

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[Forwardnbak]

13 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

 

Yeet it thru a window.

 

 

You had me at YEET  

[Paul A]

 

[Roadpower]

27 minutes ago, Paul A said:

 

At thirteen minutes into the video the question is asked to the FDNY people is if they are seeing more of these fires and they answer in the affirmative, outside and INSIDE.

[Tasku]

5 hours ago, Paul A said:

He rode this wheel for several weeks.

He did have a decent crash when a delivery guy on a bike stepped out in front of him.

Took a good spill at around 30mph and the wheel still worked.

I think the crash could have been unlucky firestarter for this case. Little did I know, when I crashed my wheel that after 2-5 charges the batterys did not charge full anymore. In my case no fire, but had to replace the batterypack. Crashes can be very unfortunate events, should it cause event later. Even there was no visual puncture to the aluminium shell in this case.. Generally you should be good, as long as you can charge battery full to check if battery still function but..

Anyway I do not pretend to know what the cause is, just thinking there is good change the earlier crash could play role in someway.

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

The only bad practice that would count would be riding in very heavy rain and putting it in a car trunk or laid down on its side, and it doesn't seem to be the case.

My 2nd bet would be on the water and corrode.

In anycase, that was quite frightening fire. Anyone already going to go buy some fireblankets and trashbins to put euc into? 

[Forwardnbak]

The slight POP mentioned and the flash of blue also chatted about seems interesting to me. 

[Tasku]

18 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

At thirteen minutes into the video the question is asked to the FDNY people is if they are seeing more of these fires and they answer in the affirmative, outside and INSIDE.

Makes me wonder, cause dentrites will eventually form based on how much one tortures the wheel. Gotta start thinking how long I wanna push my wheel into (around ~20000 km traveled).

And yeah E-bike fires are a thing, but they do not shoot like flamethrowers to 2.5meter away..

[Tasku]

3 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Move it outdoors: 

Shove it with a chair.

Drag it with a rug. 

Push it with a shovel. 

Snag it with a coat hanger. 

Yeet it thru a window.

But you only have as long as you can hold your breath, to try. Then shut the doors and evac.

Water won't hurt but also won't help

 

I was fairly surprised that the fire got air.. without air it prolly should not combust like that or atleast I figured there could be enough time to maybe move it? I thought that was supposed to be part of the idea of encasing? But I gues it is the pressure that breaks the case there, as first there was just lil puff of smoke..

Made me wonder if metallic big bin would be good enough to dump device into with help of fireblankets. Then fill it (the trashbin) with water like the firemen did. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Tasku

[Paul A]

Speculation.

Could the previous 30,mph crash have caused unseen damage to the battery pack(s), eg: the connections between cells.

 

The second crash results from a cut out/board failure, from repeated excessive torquing by demo riders.

The battery fire is not due to spread of fire from control board, or failure of BMS to isolate cells from control board.

Perhaps the fire of the cells is because the second crash has further damaged the battery pack(s) which then caught alight.

It seemed that one battery pack initially burned, then the other.

 

Perhaps two separate events, occurring at the same time.

Mistakenly interpreted as one event. 

Mistakenly interpreted as a cause and effect event.

Mistakenly interpreted as the BMS failing.

 

Hsiang stated that in all previous control board failures, it did not result in the battery packs catching alight.

Why should it then happen with the S20?

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

[chanman]

16 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Why should it then happen with the S20?

It shouldn't, but whatever should have disconnected the cells when the packs were presumably shorted due to the board failure did not work in this wheel, at least not before the packs were in full thermal runaway. Whether this is due to a design failure on kingsong's part or existing damage to the wheel we can only speculate. 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by chanman

[Lukasz]

What bugs me - I remember S20 battery pack installation video where cells in the battery seem to be unprotected- just fully visible. In such case cells are protected from short circuit just by thin insulation on each cell...   easy to scratch/wear out in case of vibrations...  this may be the case - but I am guessing only...

[Roadpower]

I am forming a pending order for two fire blankets. So far I'm leaning towards a two pack of 49 inch blankets. I've been looking at videos about best practices. Last year I ordered two fire extinguishers. This year I'm going to build something on my brick & concrete terrace to isolate the wheels in. I'm not playing with fire hazards.

[Cress]

What are the chances we can confirm the battery manufacturer / model  ?  The video confirms repeated acceleration -> breaking.  The first question is how far out-of-specification were the batteries operating during acceleration -> breaking?, the next question is were the batteries damaged prior to operating out-of-specification?   It's a simple investigation that must be done.  The manufacturer should be informed that we understand EXACTLY what caused the fire and it is offensive that the S20 was allowed to go to production.

Unless information over-and-above the Hsaing video develops - the manufacturer made creative, innovative choices in the production of this EUC WITHOUT TECHNICAL REVIEW prior to production.  It's really stupid, really simple and without excuse.

[Jason H]

Tragic for the whole community!

[Mayhem]

44 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

pending order for two fire blankets. So far I'm leaning towards a two pack of 49 inch blankets.

just make sure whatever fire blankets you select are proper heavy duty blankets 1200°f + rated (ex: from a welding supply) not no Amazon crap.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Mayhem

[rolis]

2 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

just make sure whatever fire blankets you select are proper heavy duty blankets 1200°f rated (ex: from a welding supply) not no Amazon crap.

Liion batteries burn at 2000Celsius /3632Fahrenheit. So go twice the heavy duty rating. 
 

these seem to by effective:

https://firesak.com

[Paul A]

Chanman.

If the battery fire started within the battery pack, the BMS might not have any effect.

Might be wrongly assuming that the control board fire has spread to and caused the battery pack fires.