Kingsong s20 Cut out FIRE (New York)

[Rollin-on-1]

Rumors coming out of NYC that the S20 demo wheel that Hsiang has caught on fire today.  Still a rumor, but concerning if it turns out to be true.

[FrenchUsa]

video should be release mid week with all info!

[MetricUSA]

It could be because of the weak tin connections that people are talking about, the same as the s18 battery packs...

[techyiam]

Just when you think the S20 has hit bottom and is on a rebound, then this thing from NYC with Hsiang and U-stride happens. Our EUC world is so eventful.

 

[Forwardnbak]

Maybe, water? Maybe, wrong charger used or …. Eeek??? something!! 

[techyiam]

Doesn't the post hint at a cutout, then the main board start making popping sounds (ie. bursting into flames?), and lastly the finale, with the battery catching fire?

This is interesting. The controller is in its own metal module, as are the battery packs in its own metal boxes. So, it is unlikely the flames could have spread?

Edited March 27, 2022 by techyiam

[Tawpie]

The video should be interesting to see. But even then, "we" will never know with certainty. And even if KS does get that control board back (I hope it's already on an airplane back to Shenzhen), they might not ever know... fire tends to cover its tracks pretty completely.

[rolis]

A few messages that sum up the NYC incident.

David: “Sad to say it’s confirmed s20 did catch fire in nyc … hopefully king song will come out with a fix …”

Ray Rokni: “ustride was riding the hsuang demo wheel on nyc street. nothing hard. in fact going pretty slow, mbrd fails he falls. mbrd starts popping and shaking on its side and after 20seconds the glorious fire from the batteries start. pretty simple 😁”

Marty Backe: “I have the video but can't show it. I can say it's the most impressive EUC fire video I've ever seen.

KingSong is going to have a little bit of work ahead of them.

Don't expect your S20s anytime soon”

Marty Backe:”The video is particularly impressive because you get to see the low-speed cutout, the fall, and the inferno followed by the New York City fire Department”

[Freeforester]

11 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Rumors coming out of NYC that the S20 demo wheel that Hsiang has caught on fire today.  Still a rumor, but concerning if it turns out to be true.

Might it have caught the ‘Gotway Fvirus’ off U-Stride’s boot soles, he rides an EXN and an MSP?? 
 

Something of a reality check to realise that, irrespective of make ‘if it’s got batteries inside, it can go up in flames’. That aside, if it has been a demo wheel, then it presumably has been subjected to all manner of riders’ individual ‘test ride regimes’, and had been pushed or otherwise reached the limits of its ‘temper’, if not final temperature.  Judging from some of the various videos shown here in the S20 story, there appear to be quite a number of ‘fair use’ riding styles being shown, and it may be that Kingsong EUC’s may be ‘technically unsuited’ to some of those riding styles.     It certainly seems to be possible to break almost any wheel we encounter, perhaps we need to bear this in mind when looking to ‘send’ the new toys, as their ‘limits’ might be exceeded by those of any individual rider. I’d be surprised indeed if any ‘black box’ type review of the wheel’s usage history did not reveal some earlier clues as to what may have contributed to, if not downright caused its demise, and personally I feel it is sheer misfortune, both for KS and the rider/s who were evaluating the wheel at the time-point of no return.

But of course this is just an opinion, based on nothing other than my own limited observations, and may indeed be totally wide of the mark. It is also concerning to see the apparent lack of weatherproofing on the light circuitry and on a position on the wheel that gets maximal exposure to any incoming rain, though of course the Evees wheels caught in the deluge in (?)LA survived unscathed. I don’t pretend to know whether or not any short circuit resulting from water ingress from the lighting circuitry would be capable of frying the mobo and or causing the fire, but I’m pretty sure the product would be regarded as being somewhat more ‘complete’ were this potential risk removed via proper design and execution at the final production stage.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Freeforester

[supercurio]

Damn.
I hope that video and audio footage will allow to do get some analysis of this fire done.

My guess so far:

Although it not impossible, it seems unlikely that the board would catch fire during slow riding

Could a board fire get one or two packs on fire? Yes although it is unlikely due to these reasons:

• It never happened on Sherman which had countless board fires with a similar configuration: board on top, 4 holes (vs 2 on S20) connecting the battery and packs compartments. There's more space around the board and in between the board and packs on Sherman vs S20 tho.
• The S20 packs are fused. At 2x60A, it might be still enough to start a fire. But they're supposed to shut down output very quickly, so the board should not burn due to infinite current supply from the packs.
• What I would expect instead is more like the V12 MOSFET dying. The components short but everything shuts down immediately and there's no fire.

The current S20 packs waterproofing is terrible

10 days ago I was writing

On 3/17/2022 at 1:14 PM, supercurio said:

BTW this reminds me of mistaken confidence Kingsong still has with the S20 where packs are completely unprotected aside from being enclosed in the aluminum casing, which are not sealed from the controller box which itself is not sealed.
Then when water can make it in, it can't make it out from the bottom.

Unless addressed, it means some S20 will catch fire. I hate to predict that, but I'll likely be proven right.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CaSjLClp7fD/

Before changing nickname to superoracle: I'll develop further:

The motor wires go into this red plastic guide which holds it in place, with no waterproofing whatsoever.
Notice the location of the power button as well.

 

Once removing the red plastic cover, you can see the motor wires connected directly onto the board. Ecodrift's teardown shows that the board is coated with sealant, but this is a way water can get in the board compartement.

 

In this picture with the charger/power button daughter board unscrewed, you can notice the absence of sealing around both charging connectors as well as the piece of red plastic pushing on the power button. This is directly at the front of the wheel, heading downwards. However water will be sprayed by any other vehicle ahead as well as wind turbulences, and water or at least moisture will find its way in wet riding conditions, and just get in if the wheel drops in water like during shibby_time's fountain incident.

 

Once water or moisture gets in the compartment box, it can freely drip into the battery boxes via these two conducts.

 

The bottom of the battery boxes is completely sealed. Water can pool at the bottom with no chance to escape.

 

Cells are directly exposed in the packs with nothing to protect them from corrosion.

 

That's the theory I find more likely:

One or several cells, or BMS damaged by corrosion - battery pack catching fire while riding - wheels cuts out - fire continues.
The popping sound could be BMS electronics fire, not necessarily mainboard fire.

Note that in case the NY S20 wheel was never ridden in wet weather it's probably an invalid theory in that specific case, but still stands on its own to describe fire risk with the early S20 wheels produced.

Kingsong must improve the waterproofing design of the S20.
Unless there's no way water can get in (which will require some design changes around the power button at the minimum), these packs are far too vulnerable for the overall solution to be safe. It is IMO unrealistic/irresponsible to have the raw cells exposed like that without extra casing and think nothing bad will happen especially if you account for maintenance operations.

Edited March 27, 2022 by supercurio

[goatman]

i wonder how much more money kingsong will want for a different brand battery inside the S20

 

 

 

 

[Rollin-on-1]

8 minutes ago, goatman said:

i wonder how much more money kingsong will want for a different brand battery inside the S20

 

 

 

 

Even more relevant, will they still honor the early pre-order pricing if they make further changes to the MB or batteries?  

[Kévin34]

15 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Even more relevant, will they still honor the early pre-order pricing if they make further changes to the MB or batteries?  

Why should they change batteries... the chosen model is very efficient, there is nothing to say about that...

Wait for their response, their analysis before speaking about price or things like that.

[Roadpower]

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Even more relevant, will they still honor the early pre-order pricing if they make further changes to the MB or batteries?  

Given what is going on with US dollar inflation I doubt anyone can honor price quotes older than 60 to 120 days.

[jimjam.nyc]

Didn't kingsong release a new firmware as well related to power delivery? Could this have something to do with the incident? Honestly asking as I have no real idea how these things work.

But considering they were limiting things in firmware for reasons.. maybe this is a software issue, which ultimately was preventing a hardware issue.

[supercurio]

Video of the S20 fire, from Telegram channel (original credits unknown so far)

Source: https://t.me/s20eagle/6805
Context: eWheels demo wheel ridden in NY by U-Stride.

Observations

• Despite intense explosions, no light flash shows through the translucent cover (around the display) nor the light diffuser (at the rear)
• It most likely confirms that the fire started in one of the battery pack directly, due to BMS or cell(s) failure.
• I suspect corrosion could be a cause, but it will be very hard to confirm if it's the case due to the violence of the fire that resulted

And wow despite being mostly sealed in these aluminum boxes, flames still have no problem escaping around the wheel.
Kingsong already acknowledged the fire publicly.

Edited March 27, 2022 by supercurio

[goatman]

they shouldve called it  The S20 Dragon

was the rider braking when it cut out

[Tawpie]

24 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

Wow, that is bad bad bad.

It is. Bad for the reputation, bad for shipping times, bad that there's nothing left to do forensics on.

But it's also good good good it happened before we have thousands of them rolling around. I guess it's a reminder of why it's prudent to do a 'soft release', and why the large packs aren't allowed on airplanes!

No flaming batteries flying around is also a good thing, the rubber seals will fail to relieve the pressure build up in the battery case (and make a nice blowtorch) but it looks like the case was able to contain all of the cell explosions. So while it's no comfort, it is probably better not to eject little fire starters all over the place.

And yeah, we'll (hopefully) see the Master flying around the streets before S20 because KS still has some work to do. That's a bummer.

1 minute ago, goatman said:

was the rider braking when it cut out

It sure looks that way, and UStride mentioned braking. He also came off backwards.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Tawpie

[goatman]

i saw one video where the braking was weak then Hsang liked the braking. I wonder if they cranked up the regen amps for braking

anyone know what the max amps for the regen is on these wheels?

[supercurio]

Although constraining, I think that at this point it should be contractually required for demo wheels to have an app connected gathering the real-time telemetry at all times.
You borrow the wheel? You borrow the phone connected to it.

In that case, all the evidence got destroyed, aside from video footage from a few cameras, so all Kingsong will have to work with is.. not much.

[Bizra6ot]

This marks the end of an era folks
Gotway's haters argument 'at least it doesn't catch fire' on FB groups is over

 

Thank you KingSong

 

[Finn Bjerke]

 

[jimjam.nyc]

Just glad nobody was hurt, and this thing didnt just blow up in someone's apt or house. 

It will be near impossible for KS to know what happened here i think. Which is unfortunate for anyone hoping to get this wheel in the next few weeks. Unless KS chalk this up to a fluke, i cant see them shipping anytime soon. which is probably for the better.. All of the new wheels this year have been plagued with some QA shenanigans. 

Hopefully they were connected to an app that at least logs some of the metrics while riding.. That may be somewhat helpful. Hopefully the smart BMS when connecting would notify of any cell damage or BMS stuff..

 

 

 

 

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

I’ve been saving for over a year to buy an euc and all I hear is cutouts,fires ,quality control issues ,waterproofing issues .seems like a fool and his money are soon parted will come to fruition unless this community demands more from manufacturers and stops buying their junk 

[FlyboyEUC]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

It most likely confirms that the fire started in one of the battery pack directly, due to BMS or cell(s) failure.

My experience from seeing multiple mother boards blow on wheels (mostly Shermans) the popping sounds in the beginning sounds exactly like all the boards I've heard blow. There isn't much of a show other than quick flashes and smoke. I believe the board failed, then the batteries shorted.

The Shermans have fuses between the batteries and the board. The intent was to prevent the batteries from over charging the board but I think it serves better at preventing battery fires after the board blows.