Kingsong s20 Cut out FIRE (New York)

[supercurio]

What do you guys think about the 126V S20 capacitors being rated at 160V, same as seen on 100.8V wheels (Sherman for instance).
Relevant, or mostly heat is as @Tawpie just wrote?

Edited March 28, 2022 by supercurio

[RagingGrandpa]

27 minutes ago, supercurio said:

What do you guys think about the S20 capacitors rated at 160V

I'm with @Tawpie - their current ratings are much more concerning, than the 160V withstand.

(But I think all EUC controllers are taking lots of liberty with capacitor discharge rates... it's not unique to S20)

GW/BG has been using Japanese Chemi-Con 160V capacitors in their modern controllers, in sizes rated for about 4A RMS ripple current @ 10kHz. It's not nothing... but when we're considering ~60A observed battery currents during aggressive riding, 4A doesn't sound very big. 
Also bear in mind, 4A is not an absolute maximum: it just means, if you exceed it, the capacitor isn't guaranteed to perform a full 10,000hr lifetime. 
(I think 6A ripple would not be instant death.)

The S20 "HKLCON" capacitors are a bit strange. They're labeled for 160V 680uF 105°C, the same ratings as modern Gotway controllers, yet they're physically half the size as the Chemi-Con's. Which makes me suspect that they're less rugged... 
But in any case- if the capacitors explode, the battery packs should never  

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 17 by PLEASE_DELETE

[.....]

47 minutes ago, /Dev/Null said:

I'm done buying wheels for the foreseeable future.  Until wheels get much, MUCH better, My money is staying in my pocket.

I have found myself in the same thought. I have honestly gone to bed each night for a week, wondering if I should embrace the wheels I have as the LAST wheels I probably ever will. Quality isnt improving and its getting harder and harder to ignore the problems. My current wheel collection is fine, but for how long? How long until I wont be overlooked by the politicians and cops? How long will my house NOT be in flames? How long until a cheap part costs me a cutout and a busted jaw? The longer I am a part of the euc game, the more I realize that it is heading in a direction that is obviously NOT sustainable. Not only am I staying away from paying to be abused as a test pig, I am eyeballing my largest wheel and thinking of cashing it out, before it cashes ME out. If I owned ANY of these newer wheels that havent proven itself to me yet, I'd have already pawned it off on the next risk taker. I fear we are slowly watching the euc hobby come closer to not being a viable option at all. WE keep tossing money at these companies, only to watch them ignore proven tech and push off more bullshit. If something is already just BARELY operational and reliable, its rediculous that we would assume a huge leap in tech is going to be more reliable.  Euc companies havent hardly learned to crawl, yet we pay them to run. The euc buisness model sickens me. The magic that IS the ride tho.... oh the glory! When its good, its great. When it aint, it really aint!

Edited March 28, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[ESB]

13 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I have found myself in the same thought. I have honestly gone to bed each night for a week, wondering if I should embrace the wheels I have as the LAST wheels I probably ever will. Quality isnt improving and its getting harder and harder to ignore the problems. My current wheel collection is fine, but for how long? How long until I wont be overlooked by the politicians and cops? How long will my house NOT be in flames? How long until a cheap part costs me a cutout and a busted jaw? The longer I am a part of the euc game, the more I realize that it is heading in a direction that is obviously NOT sustainable. Not only am I staying away from paying to be abused as a test pig, I am eyeballing my largerst wheel and thinking of cashing it out, before it cashes ME out. If I owned ANY of these newer wheels that havent proven itself to me yet, I'd have already pawned it off on the next risk taker. I fear we are slowly watching the euc hobby come closer to not being a viable option at all. WE keep tossing money at these companies, only to watch them ignore proven tech and push off more bullshit. If something is already just BARELY operational and reliable, its rediculous that we would assume a huge leap in tech is going to be more reliable.  Euc companies havent hardly learned to crawl, yet we pay them to run. The euc buisness model sickens me.

Sad but true. Pretty much described how I feel. Like others have said, 18XL meets my needs and I'm glad its a proven design. Its not seen as high performance because its "slow" maxing out at 30mph but I kind of laugh at that seeing as I rarely hit the speed limit and have a lot of fun while riding. Yet the enthusiasts for some reason demand more speed and more power and this is where we've ended up. Wheel reliability issues aside, riding these at speeds close to 50mph to me sounds insane and itself risks these becoming banned over time (but thats a different discussion)

[Forwardnbak]

After sleeping on it I’m really close to cancelling. I fell asleep looking at the black master on EWheels, also the Sherman max.

it would be a nice time to see a v13 release with a strong TESTED confident product. 
 

It’s a damn shame all this. 
 

kinda waiting to see what Kingsong say. I like the confidence in the follow up letter “this will never happen again” makes me think they will go OVER AND ABOVE what’s needed to secure their brand. 
they need to, they better.

Maybe too late. 

[Paul A]

People running for their lives in Ukraine.

Disappointment in an EUC failing expectations seems bit of a First World problem..

[Finn Bjerke]

42 minutes ago, /Dev/Null said:

I'm done buying wheels for the foreseeable future.  Until wheels get much, MUCH better, My money is staying in my pocket.

EUC riding is extatic fun. Inmotion V11 will not burn. Go for it mate .....too much fun

[.....]

9 minutes ago, Paul A said:

People running for their lives in Ukraine.

Disappointment in an EUC failing expectations seems bit of a First World problem..

Moot. One persons concerns/issues, doesnt negate the other. I happen to live in a first world country, so of course my problems follow suit.

[Forwardnbak]

8 minutes ago, Paul A said:

People running for their lives in Ukraine.

Disappointment in an EUC failing expectations seems bit of a First World problem..

yes for sure. 
 

I think people use little highs like looking forward to a nice upgrade, saving and working off that goal etc as a coping mechanism for some of the larger world problems.

 

s20 was a real high for me to look forward to, I don’t treat myself much, this was a good treat for me. But a sacrifice for my family, so it kinda adds pressure on it working out for me. They would not like to see $4000 up in flames, I think they would want me to quit rolling. 

 

to me my wheel has been a way to escape all that a while, that’s the really great thing about it to me. 

[Paul A]

SP, am attempting to illustrate that perspective and perception might ease some of the disappointment felt.

[chanman]

I don't really care for the regressive mentality some of you are espousing here, we should want the latest and best battery tech and features such as suspension in our wheels, we should want to see improvements and new products improving on previous ones. We should also want a company that does proper testing of their designs so that this doesn't happen in the wild.

[Tawpie]

4 minutes ago, chanman said:

We should also want a company that does proper testing of their designs so that this doesn't happen in the wild.

It could be argued that sending wheels to yt influencers, especially ones that like to ride on the edge, qualifies as "testing"

[.....]

29 minutes ago, chanman said:

I don't really care for the regressive mentality some of you are espousing here, we should want the latest and best battery tech and features such as suspension in our wheels, we should want to see improvements and new products improving on previous ones. We should also want a company that does proper testing of their designs so that this doesn't happen in the wild.

I'm pretty sure nearly 100% of us agree. Its just that SOME of us, don't like how its coming about. Suspension is a great idea. So far tho, we're still waiting on them to bring it from 'theory', to a QUALITY reality. Instead of a slow and safer progression of tech, we are watching them push the envelopes, before managing the core problem... Build quality, and component quality. I want a suspension wheel that is advantagoues over the older proven wheels. However, I am one of the people who isnt convinced that we are seeing gains in that area, w/o losing the most important thing.... reliability. My knee jerk reaction to things like this, stems from disappointment. I KNOW we have the tech. I KNOW we have the ability. It simply baffles me, to see the buisness strategies at hand and the way the consumer is led to have expectations that arent even close to being met. Every company tries new things. Im just wishing the euc companies would quit pushing new tech at the expense of losing what was working with the old. Building an euc is NOT rocket science, in contrast to where we are with tech on planet Earth. The bizz side of euc building, must be what is getting in the way. Of course, there's always a maximum to what people are willing to pay. Maybe its the end price that is forcing this to happen?

Tbh, if euc riding wasnt as great as it is, this would be a lot less aggravating to see happen. If we didnt want this so much, we wouldnt care as much. There's also a benefit in people who are always bitching and never happy. I like to think it makes companies pay attention, and it helps offeset the crowd who lavishes praise, while the truth is more likely somewhere in the middle. Me, I don't trust ANY of these brands. The last cpla yrs has proven that a brand is merely a name anymore. NO brand can claim title of 'safest', 'conservative', 'reliable' anymore. Brand bias is dead and I now look at each model as its own new entity. Blindly trusting an euc brand because of past performance, has already cost me too much. Want proof? I've been eyeballing the Hero for a while. IN what world would I consider a gotway suspension over a KS suspension! I truly am saddened when I see this from ANY brand tho. Euc's have a lot in common. When a problem arises with one, its not a far fetch to worry if its applicable to another.

Edited March 28, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[Paul A]

Even well established automobile manufacturers in a mature industry have similar problems.

That's not rocket science either.

Try the YouTube channel of Scotty Kilmer.

[Forwardnbak]

I also imagine when petrol transport became widely used there was an increase in fires.

 

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 17 by PLEASE_DELETE

[Tryptych]

Some reminders:

1. This is a demo wheel that was sent out for testing purposes. Calm down.

2. ZERO production units have had this issue.

3. Only this one demo out of 20 (or is it 40?) that exist in the world have had this problem (right?).

4. We have no way of knowing 100% what this test unit went through. NYC is not known for being gentle on demo units.

5. King Song is taking this incident very seriously and will resolve the issue before they ship production units. This is exactly why companies need to do extensive QC and in this aspect KS is doing a great job. Compared to Begode which does not send out any demo/test units and is going straight to shipping the Master production batch #1 and letting owners find all the bugs for them (yikes!).

I still can't wait to get mine and I love that they are working out the issues BEFORE shipping and not just rushing them out the door.

 

 

 

[.....]

3 hours ago, Paul A said:

Even well established automobile manufacturers in a mature industry have similar problems.

That's not rocket science either.

Try the YouTube channel of Scotty Kilmer.

Any vehicle manufacturer that offers exploding cars, doesnt get a free pass either. Seeing it happen in more than one industry, doesnt make a sh*t to me. So, if its happening in cars, then wouldnt there already be a greater focus on the problem, when designing an euc? Just because one company does it, doesnt exlude me from having high expectations of another.

We keep being told that these are just 'teething' problems of demo models and it will be solved prior to release. Yeah, just like we have been told about EVERY new model. "don't worry, we'll make SURE it's perfect before we SELL it to you". I really hope they do figure out these problems and spend lots of $$ in redesigning weak areas before selling. Its not like they are on a timeline at all either. It aint like we've heard and seen this all before. What scares me most, is that these are NOT new companies and an euc isnt a totally brand new device. There are a lot of things that are still common and the electrical theories remain. Yet in their maturity, we still see shit like this happening.  1 failure out of 40, isnt something to really brag about. Testing in private and behind closed doors, would reduce the PR nightmares and fires that KS keeps having to put out. It won't be long before we all will have the apology letter and declaration of it being fixed (because they care), memorized from seeing it more than a big pharma commercial. Just remember, the power in an exploding euc, is FAR greater than that of the bullets in my gun. Burning wheels is a matter of safety for everyone. A NYC wheel catches fire in an apartment, and the wheel owner isnt squat compared to the people and damages in danger over it. IIRC, my s18 wasnt rushed out the door, had delays and 'testing'. It arrived a broken piece of shit anyhow. Maybe they ironed out the problems, or maybe they simply did the very least they could and moved on to another idea.....

Cmon KS, make me eat my words and get your company back to the status it once had. In being pioneers of new tech, you are destroying the reputation you had. A delicate balance is in order and perhaps a little more work and a little less marketing promises, are in order. I am eagerly awaiting to be a KS fanboi again. Its now strike 2, bottom of the ninth. Fwiw, this isnt JUST a KS problem. Almost ALL euc manufacturers are riding this thin line of quality. It just hurts more, seeing from a company I viewed as being a leader in safety and quality (relatively speaking). If this happens to KS, then we can surmise that its going to be an inudstry wide phenom for a while.

Edited March 29, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[Tawpie]

Fun numbers to give you an idea of 'why' the fire was so gol-darn spectacular.

A 2200 Wh battery contains 2200*360 = 792.000 W-seconds of energy. A watt-second is also known as a joule.

A 22 caliber LR bullet has a muzzle energy of about 150 J when fired. When the pack dumped its energy into heat, it was the equivalent energy of 5280 (a miles worth? strange number) 22 caliber bullets discharged in a minute or two. A really nice show should be expected.

In petrol terms, it's like lighting 0,4 liters of gasoline on fire.

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul A]

Perhaps wait for the breakthrough solid state batteries.

 

Interesting article.

https://phys.org/news/2022-03-re-jigged-cathode-recipe-solid-state-batteries.html

March 25, 2022

Re-jigged cathode recipe gives new hope to solid-state batteries for electric vehicles

A paper describing the manufacturing process appeared in the journal Nano Research on Mar. 24.

"Most of the composite cathode manufacturing technologies that have been explored so far result in batteries that do not even match the performance of existing commercial batteries, let alone exceed them, hitting around 3 mAh/cm²," said Jizhang Chen of the College of Materials Science and Engineering at Nanjing Forestry University and lead author of the paper.

 

So the researchers developed a novel cathode composition and accompanying manufacturing technique that overcomes these challenges while offering a high area capacity. The quantity of binders and conductive agents, in this case lithium hydroxide and boric acid, added is substantially reduced (down to about four percent of the overall weight). These are used as additives in the sintering process during cathode formation.

Sintering is a method of compacting a powder into a solid mass via heat or pressure without melting it to the point of becoming a liquid. In this case however, there remains a liquid phase for at least some components while others remain powder in order to give a boost to the bonding between particles.

 

The resulting composite cathode delivered promising performance, hitting an area capacity above 8 mAh/cm² within a wide range of voltages up to 4.4 V. This is expected to be used to manufacture solid-state batteries with an energy density of 500 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg), easily beating the 100-265 Wh/kg energy density offered by contemporary lithium ion batteries.

[Roadpower]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

...with an energy density of 500 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg), easily beating the 100-265 Wh/kg energy density offered by contemporary lithium ion batteries.

 That would be fantastic depending on material cost and ease of manufacturing.

[Seba]

15 hours ago, techyiam said:

I am wondering whether you bought the 18XL the 2nd time is because there is something still missing from the V11 that you still like on the 18XL? Is it just because of reliability, or is there more to it?

V11 turned out to be an unreliable wheel for me, not resistant to harsh weather conditions. After about 1500 km, the bearing seized at a distance of only five kilometers, even though there were no indications that something was wrong with it. Despite replacing the bearing with a new one (FAG), it too began to show signs of failure after only a few hundred kilometers. High positioned pedals make the wheel less stable and more prone to lateral slipping. In addition, the battery housing reaching the rim of the wheel completely negates the benefit of the high pedal clearance. Despite the seemingly high ground clearance, it is very easy to hit rocks, roots etc. Also, stepping on a curb at an angle other than straight may result in a fall. The V11 is a great wheel for recreational riding over short distances, it has great lights and good suspension, but it's not enough. The wheel on which you want to safely ride 1000-2000 km in a week or two has to be reliable, comfortable, ergonomic and ready for any weather. Moreover, it must offer an appropriate range-to-weight ratio, have relatively small dimensions and have the possibility of quick charging. And the 18XL meets all these expectations, although it is not a perfect wheel. If it had 3" wide tires, ~1800-2200 Wh battery and V11-like lighting, it would be awesome. So now it is "only" great

I bought another 18XL so I don't have to change my riding habits. Now I have two wheels that are set almost identically, with the only distinction that my first XL has 2000 W motor while second one has 2200 W motor. There's a slight difference in handling and behaviour of both wheels, but nothing serious. Also, owning two 18XL simplifies maintenance and service, as I can use the same parts, the same tools and the same procedures. More, I could even swap parts between wheels in case of need.

15 hours ago, techyiam said:

I have never ridden a 18XL before, so I don't know how it rides. There must be something really special about it.

It has very universal riding characteristics. So while it's not a wheel for speed junkies, it rides very smothly and is very nimble. While it's a 18-incher, in most scenarios you don't even need a power pads. Having ones is beneficial though, and I can recommend hand-made, custom power pads made by Frank from https://www.euc-custom-power-pads.com/power-pads

15 hours ago, techyiam said:

Go back to your purchasing of the 18XL the 2nd time, is the 18XL good enough on bumpy roads that you would prefer it over the V11 for your commute? And you use your V11 primarily for offroad? Or is reliability also a factor in the equation? Just curious? Thanks.

I started my EUC adventure in times where EUC suspension was only an idea. I used to use my legs as my suspension and while I clearly see benefits of having suspension, I also see drawbacks - increased complexity, size and weight, decreased reliability, worse range-to-weight ratio etc. So personally, I prefer less weight, more range and reliability over suspension. I don't ride my V11. I only use it for EUC World development and plan to send it for repair and then sell.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Seba

[mhpr262]

1 hour ago, Seba said:

 High positioned pedals make the wheel less stable and more prone to lateral slipping. In addition, the battery housing reaching the rim of the wheel completely negates the benefit of the high pedal clearance. Despite the seemingly high ground clearance, it is very easy to hit rocks, roots etc. Also, stepping on a curb at an angle other than straight may result in a fall.

The position of the pedals has no influence on how easily something slips laterally. The tire cannot tell how high the pedals are mounted. The tire and the lean angle are the only factors that have a bearing on the matter.

I agree that it is not good that hitting rocks and roots is too easy when going offroad, but the V11 was clearly never intended to be a rugged offroad wheel. It is built more for dirt roads, cobblestones and potholes and patches in normal asphalt roads. IMHO it is not an entirely fair accusation. You wouldnt complain that a Tesla Model S is bad at offroading.

[Chester Copperpot]

To my mind, a plausible scenario is that the high speed crash 2 weeks prior caused physical damage to one or more cells inside the pack. They remained functional but compromised.

After 2 more weeks of use and heating one finally failed on this ride and vented. This would be the pop sounds that was heard and caused the cutout and crash.

The thermal energy trapped inside the battery case and/or possibly an electrical short circuit created by the exploded cell rapidly results in the chain reaction.

Just an opinion.