Begode Master 134V 2400WH Suspension

[Eucner]

38 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

A deformable-upon-impact (shock absorbing) roll cage like Splyce EUC makes (or make one with adjustable dimensions) should reduce impact damage considerably, if well enough designed. Local smith manufactured a couple of side panels and joining cross member at the top, the rest is threaded rod, Velcro and a confection of piping of various diameters with added sparkly bits, no great magic,  nor have I sourced decent parking bumper/skid pads, but I think the main idea is that it should give or bend to a certain degree in the event of an impact at speed, rather than be rigid and just break into pieces. I’ve no idea whether it will be fit for purpose, and I hope never to find out, lol!

It is a good idea, but the implementation should be more round and without dangerous "horns".

[Kutvis]

52 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Yup, historically, buying early batches have been high risk purchases.

What I'm after is Gotway giving clear info such as: "we are going to do these changes because of.." and "even though we are making considerable updates to our wheel, we will continue to deliver spare parts for the #1 series and update firmware to be more safe".. or something like this.

• At the moment GW is most likely trying to stop delivering spare parts and firmware updates to #1 series early, I'm most happy to be wrong, but untill we get some fair information from the manufacturer.. russian telegram we trust

I think even though we know the risk on 1st batches it doesn't mean we have to take anything and it really isn't "if you can't take" it is more like "poor e-shops taking the hit", we got our other wheels to ride while waiting.

Most strong impulse is to swap the preorder for later series under 2 weeks before the wheel is delivered

Edited July 22, 2022 by Kutvelo

[techyiam]

36 minutes ago, Kutvelo said:

At the moment GW is trying to stop delivering spare parts and firmware updates to #1 series, I'm most happy to be wrong, but untill we get some fair information from the manufacturer.. russian telegram we trust

Interesting. Lots of rumors flying around. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by techyiam

[Kutvis]

20 hours ago, techyiam said:

Interesting. Lots of rumors flying around. 

Exactly, batteries, display, mainboard and charge port won't mix. Firmware won't mix, which is at least as scaring as the mixing with parts. Wonder which model they will focus in the future..

E. I have already got a promise from local tailoring shop: They will put leather on the custom made seat I will manufacture for my master! Going to create rather narrow rollcage in the middle of the wheel and set the seat over it, not sure should I go over grizzla sidepads, gotta ride first some.. in september

Edited July 23, 2022 by Kutvelo

[Freeforester]

54 minutes ago, Eucner said:

It is a good idea, but the implementation should be more round and without dangerous "horns".

Agreed, the bumpers on the stalks are yet to be added, but they will be of a bulbous  and deformable nature.

[techyiam]

9 minutes ago, Kutvelo said:

E. I have already got a promise from local tailoring shop: They will put leather on the custom made seat I will manufacture for my master! Going to make the seat over the rollcage

Nice.

But if you are going retail, shouldn't you be waiting for the Master top deck design to stabilize first?

[Kutvis]

2 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Nice.

But if you are going retail, shouldn't you be waiting for the Master top deck design to stabilize first?

I moved my order for 2nd batch, I hope it is enough to stabilize biggest issues. If they inform such dramatic changes before I get my 2nd batch wheel delivered I will move again unless spareparts and firmware updates are quaranteed to continue.

[Cerbera]

29 minutes ago, Kutvelo said:

moved my order for 2nd batch, I hope it is enough to stabilize biggest issues.

That's confused me. Begode have just finished a batch of Masters (Jun 29th), which, as I understood it can't be the first batch, as the US guys making videos of it had theirs long before then... I have pre-ordered from that latest batch, so quite keen to know which go round it is, but I had been presuming it was second !

Edited July 22, 2022 by Cerbera

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

That's confused me. Begode have just finished a batch of Masters (Jun 29th), which, as I understood it can't be the first batch, as the US guys making videos of it had theirs long before then... I have pre-ordered from that latest batch, so quite keen to know which go round it is, but I had been presuming it was second !

No worries, it's all relative. Its actually number is subjective. It depends on who you ask.

[The Brahan Seer]

23 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Begode have just finished a batch of Masters (Jun 29th), which, as I understood it can't be the first batch,

This is the some of the info relating to the second batch, I use this link to see delivery times and updates...

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/BEGODE-Master-134V-2400wh-3500W-Motor_1600446879006.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.normal_offer.d_title.4fa93014ThBN7j

[Whalesmash]

The main issue here is the metal that connects the tray area to the suspension sliders is just too thin for this style of design. It would be much more durable if the motherboard and associated electronic components were located closer to the center point of the wheel (underneath the trolley handle, or towards the back of the EUC). This would allow them to redesign the front such that there is a smoother transition from the front of the wheel more like the egg shaped profile of the S18 or nikola rather than having this huge chin sticking out over and above the wheel. In its current shape, when the wheel falls forwards, the headlight/motherboard area quite literally smashes into the ground and takes a tremendous amount of impact rather than rolling it out. Since begode is stuck with this sort of layout for the time being, they should at least beef up the amount of metal used around the box to slider area. Then again, cast aluminum is only going to be so strong. Making it thicker may not help all that much.

In all fairness, the damage to my wheel isn't too tremendous (I rode the wheel 15 miles home without any issues), so the electronic components were protected just fine. I could probably even continue riding the wheel with its cracked frame if I so desired, but I'd rather not for obvious reasons. I saw some talk about doing a splice guard of sorts, but I would say that such an approach may not be the best, as the mounting points for the splice guard are typically velcro attached to the battery packs. The pack shells are plastic and are stunningly expensive ($100 per box, with $20 for the top cover or bottom cover off aliexpress), while the entire frame is $100. This says a lot about the quality of metal/effort that is being put into making that cast frame. The only benefit I could think of for a splyce guard of sorts would be that the impact force could be distributed over the body more evenly, and may allow it to survive with less damage. On the other hand, if it exceeds that damage threshold, that's going to be a lot of things to replace. 

By and large, I would still say that the S18's layout, in terms of suspension geometry (IE how the suspension folds back into the body) and motherboard placement is still the best suspension EUC layout currently out there. Yes, the S22, Master, and whatever other wheel(s) out there have better specs, but both the S22 and master have pretty glaring design/durability problems. 

 

 

 

==========================================================================================

Edit: I was able to find those pictures of the V1 vs V2 units. This is off of telegram

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Whalesmash

[Chris Stone]

6 hours ago, Whalesmash said:

The main issue here is the metal that connects the tray area to the suspension sliders is just too thin for this style of design. It would be much more durable if the motherboard and associated electronic components were located closer to the center point of the wheel (underneath the trolley handle, or towards the back of the EUC). This would allow them to redesign the front such that there is a smoother transition from the front of the wheel more like the egg shaped profile of the S18 or nikola rather than having this huge chin sticking out over and above the wheel. In its current shape, when the wheel falls forwards, the headlight/motherboard area quite literally smashes into the ground and takes a tremendous amount of impact rather than rolling it out. Since begode is stuck with this sort of layout for the time being, they should at least beef up the amount of metal used around the box to slider area. Then again, cast aluminum is only going to be so strong. Making it thicker may not help all that much.

In all fairness, the damage to my wheel isn't too tremendous (I rode the wheel 15 miles home without any issues), so the electronic components were protected just fine. I could probably even continue riding the wheel with its cracked frame if I so desired, but I'd rather not for obvious reasons. I saw some talk about doing a splice guard of sorts, but I would say that such an approach may not be the best, as the mounting points for the splice guard are typically velcro attached to the battery packs. The pack shells are plastic and are stunningly expensive ($100 per box, with $20 for the top cover or bottom cover off aliexpress), while the entire frame is $100. This says a lot about the quality of metal/effort that is being put into making that cast frame. The only benefit I could think of for a splyce guard of sorts would be that the impact force could be distributed over the body more evenly, and may allow it to survive with less damage. On the other hand, if it exceeds that damage threshold, that's going to be a lot of things to replace. 

By and large, I would still say that the S18's layout, in terms of suspension geometry (IE how the suspension folds back into the body) and motherboard placement is still the best suspension EUC layout currently out there. Yes, the S22, Master, and whatever other wheel(s) out there have better specs, but both the S22 and master have pretty glaring design/durability problems. 

 

 

 

==========================================================================================

Edit: I was able to find those pictures of the V1 vs V2 units. This is off of telegram

 

So is this new battery configuration saying it’s two 67V packs in series =134V then two of those 134V packs in parallel (designated by 67V*2 & 67V*2 rather than original 33.5V*4 which was all serial) ?? These upgrades are for most recent batch arriving “soonish”? Also, are these images directly from Begode? How can I get into the Telegram group? Thanks guys.

 

Edit: I’m brand new to this forum so sorry if I messed up.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Chris Stone

[supercurio]

Thanks for sharing the details @Whalesmash!

I'm happy to see that @Jason McNeil's and LiTech uncompromising push for a redundant master battery pack configuration made Begode change their mind.
From previous discussions I've seen, they were super proud of their 4x packs wired in series design, also thinking it was their most significant progress to address the risk of battery fire, by lowering the voltage of each individual pack and preventing packs wired in parallel to charge each other via the discharge port - bypassing all BMS safeties, all that with a very low complexity solution.

The flip side was that this battery config had some serious tradeoffs, including a tremendously higher of risk of failure, also leading to a crash - which has been proven with the recent unfortunate incident described by @RagingGrandpa here.

@Jason McNeil absolutely called that one, months ago, so 👏 for making that change happen for everybody.

Now, I hope that the Begode Charging Port and BMS board will take care of damaged packs not being able to be charged by healthy packs connected in parallel and other shenanigans like we've seen on the 100.8V 900Wh packs, which can en up pushing some cell groups to unsafe voltages (4.5V in one case). Because it means this could result in the same fires as before.

Edited July 22, 2022 by supercurio

[techyiam]

7 hours ago, Whalesmash said:

The main issue here is the metal that connects the tray area to the suspension sliders is just too thin for this style of design.

Thank you posting clear pictures of the damages. 

Perhaps there is another element at play here. The following is my speculation.

The top subframe clamps onto the stanchions. The fracture looks to have started at the top of the clamp. On the clamp where it fractured is under tremendous tensile hoop stress (stress in the circumferential direction), due to the clamping action. The design of the closing of the clamp looks to be introducing bending stresses at the location of the fracture. If one look at the designs of triple clamps, one would see that there is only a small gap at the closure, and the clamping forces are tangential to the stanchions at the gap. In addition, the gap has a radial alignment.

Moreover, they placed a set screw in the clamp, which further exacerbates the bending stresses, and already high hoop stresses at the location of fracture.

Furthermore, when the wheel was tumbling down the hill, the impact forces at the top front of the wheel would further add high bending stresses at top of the clamp at the location of fracture.

For the future, perhaps they can further refine the design of the clamp, in addition to possible changes in material selection and sizing.

Although what you said about using geometry to reduce the bending stresses at the top of clamp due to top, frontal impacts would be helpful too.

 

7 hours ago, Whalesmash said:

In all fairness, the damage to my wheel isn't too tremendous (I rode the wheel 15 miles home without any issues), so the electronic components were protected just fine. I could probably even continue riding the wheel with its cracked frame if I so desired, but I'd rather not for obvious reasons.

Perhaps, but keep in mind that there is already a deep crack in the structure that is under tremendous tensile stress. This hoop stress is no longer shared with the full section depth of the clamp like it was before the fracture. The crack acts as a stress riser. And this is aluminium alloy we are talking about.

Edited July 22, 2022 by techyiam

[enaon]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Now, I hope that the Begode Charging Port and BMS board will take care of damaged packs not being able to be charged by healthy packs connected in parallel and other shenanigans like we've seen on the 100.8V 900Wh packs, which can en up pushing some cell groups to unsafe voltages (4.5V in one case). Because it means this could result in the same fires as before.

it is not the charging port, but the outpout( that is also input) port that is always paralleled between two parallel packs, so one charging the other cannot be avoided. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by enaon

[supercurio]

4 minutes ago, enaon said:

it is not the charging port, but the outpout( that is also input) port that is always paralleled between two parallel packs, so one charging the other cannot be avoided. 

Agree it can't be avoided if they're only wired in parallel, but other OEMs don't do that, right? (and as a result packs can have differing voltages when things go wrong - like on Inmotion wheels)

[enaon]

10 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Agree it can't be avoided if they're only wired in parallel, but other OEMs don't do that, right? (and as a result packs can have differing voltages when things go wrong - like on Inmotion wheels)

this thing with inmotion packs being so off from one another confuses me a bit, but yes they do have mosfets on in/out so they can isolate the packs.

Edited July 22, 2022 by enaon

[techyiam]

9 minutes ago, enaon said:

this thing with inmotion packs being so off from one another confuses me a bit, but yes they do have mosfets on in/out so they can isolate the packs.

On my V12, if the wheel was turned off properly, the output voltages of each pack is only a few volts, at least that was what I measured. That is one more thing I like about my V12. No sparks when reconnecting battery packs.

Edited July 22, 2022 by techyiam

[Freeforester]

An interesting example of failure:

 

[Kutvis]

19 hours ago, Cerbera said:

That's confused me. Begode have just finished a batch of Masters (Jun 29th), which, as I understood it can't be the first batch, as the US guys making videos of it had theirs long before then... I have pre-ordered from that latest batch, so quite keen to know which go round it is, but I had been presuming it was second !

The 1st batch I had my wheel reserved from was shipped on April by sea.

BG "1st batch" is not quite straightforward, Im not 100% but I speculate they purchase parts depending on quantities of reservations and ship out when the "certain e-shop batch" is ready, after all initial products of the 1-series are ready they start to build the 2-series and so on. Thus the first 2-series products may well be in hands of customers faster than the last of 1-series, the least it causes a lot of variation on delivery time.

[meeteck]

Hello!  I ordered an EUC 2 weeks ago, the dealer sent a video of the wheel that came in, and judging by the headlight trim, it's master ver.2. I think most of the wheels ordered recently will be refurbished. I hope this is really EUC version 2, and not just a headlight cover.

The EUC is really fragile and according to my information enthusiasts are now developing an armored fiberglass case, similar to the protection for the old EUC GW.  This should aid preservation, but will negatively impact the weight of the EUC.

[daniel1234]

- As long as BMS are properly designed (active balancing with disconnect capability) there is no harm to have 4 BMS in series. 

- If BMS fail under heavy load - we will fall. Any failure inside your battery will cause cutout. 

- 2 BMS in paraller will not save you from high speed cutout - if they are not designed for full load. 

So far mine C02 master seems to have active balancing or good cells (they are in balance so far). I think all master riders need to check theirs battery regularly after ride  !

How are yours batteries ? Did anybody Checked balance with voltmeter after ride ?

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by daniel1234

[Valentin Lambert]

Salut à tous, je possède la Master 50e lot 1 version 2 sans ventilateur. Je voudrais savoir si cela et possible d'installer la carte mère v2 et et sous carte et circuit charge avec les batteries v1 ? J'ai vue que une personne a pu installer ça sur le forum ici. Pourquoi ne pouvons pas car c'est les mêmes pack de batterie au final. 

Je possède la carte mère v2 du lot 1. Ai-je un risque de coupure avec ? 

-

Please post in English here. Google Translate:

Quote

Hi everyone, I have the Master 50e lot 1 version 2 fanless. I would like to know if it is possible to install the motherboard v2 and and under board and circuit load with the batteries v1? I saw that someone was able to install this on the forum here. Why can't because it's the same battery pack in the end.

I have the v2 motherboard from lot 1. Do I have a risk of cutting with it?

Edited July 25, 2022 by meepmeepmayer
English translation added

[Valentin Lambert]

1 hour ago, Valentin Lambert said:

Salut à tous, je possède la Master 50e lot 1 version 2 sans ventilateur. Je voudrais savoir si cela et possible d'installer la carte mère v2 et sous carte et circuit chargé avec les batteries v1 ? J'ai vu qu'une personne a pu installer ça sur le forum ici. Pourquoi ne peut pas car c'est les mêmes pack de batterie au final. 

Je possède la carte mère v2 du lot 1. Ai-je un risque de coupure avec ? 

-

Veuillez poster en anglais ici. Google Traduction :

Hi everyone, I have the Master 50e lot 1 version 2 fanless. I would like to know if it is possible to install the motherboard v2 and under board and circuit charged with the batteries v1? I saw that someone was able to install this on the forum here. Why can't because it's the same battery pack in the end.

 

I have the v2 motherboard from lot 1. Do I have a risk of cutting with it?

[Wgm]

1 hour ago, Valentin Lambert said:

Hi everyone, I have the Master 50e lot 1 version 2 fanless. I would like to know if it is possible to install the motherboard v2 and under board and circuit charged with the batteries v1? I saw that someone was able to install this on the forum here. Why can't because it's the same battery pack in the end.

 

I have the v2 motherboard from lot 1. Do I have a risk of cutting with it?

I have a V1 master and installed a V2 motherboard.  I didn't plug fan in and don't go over 50 Celsius.  Great upgrade to power as well.