Inmotion V13 Speculation

[onizukagto]

9 hours ago, Robse said:

4. "Ikaros"

Never heard of that MBT  (or maybe my googlianese is just shite). 

But if we are going to start throwing more naming nonsense, I look forward to an EUC called "Rheinmetall". 

Because it just a wicked kickarse name. Lol. 

But getting back on topic, having the ability to  "lock speed" that still allows you go beyond the lock by say 20mph, so you really have to lean forward. But the minute you stop pushing it will slow down to the pre-set speed.  

If we assume the V13 motor can take 240kg load, just by limiting the speed, sumo-class riders will have some head room. 

Win-win for everyone. 

[Unventor]

On 7/17/2022 at 12:01 AM, Robse said:

Text from the video: "to provide extra safety we implemented redundant hall sensor systems, in case either one fails while riding the other one can take over the task to make sure no cutout happens"

as @Tawpie :  i don't see any safety in this regarding cutout.  The hall sensors cant prevent loss of power due to mosfet failure, overheated / fried board, blown fuses, to low voltage and to high demand and what else can happen on this chinese crap that we gladly are riding

I think you could look at this with more constructive eyes. 

Hall sensor problems are rare to happen on most models. Especially during riding. That does not mean it could not happen. And people here on the forum asked for backup systems and over enginered designs for some time. 

So we can't get a instant spare tire during riding. But it is relative simple to add a second hall sensor the kicks in if the first report error. I doubt it cost much to do, but that is just a guess. 

So I like they idea that they are doing it. It might not matter much to many. But the few that might have a hall sensor fault during riding will appreciate it I am sure. Especially if they ride at high speeds. 

So what I mean it is soo easy to wake the negative finger. But doing so do not bring us better products. 

I am sure the Challanger in many ways are great. But I am not sure those speeds are to the benafit for EUC community/riders in the long term. But to take steps to minimise risk that must happen as top speeds goes up. This step is just one part to have a safe wheel. 

Another the touched on is the wiring. 

There are a few other things coming too. 

That said. Once it is in the flagship model this can find it's way to smaller models too as seen in other businesses. 

[sunstrong]

 

4 hours ago, Grimm10 said:

Whatever happened to calling this new Inmotion wheel the Raptor, as per naming contest last year?

I think after the contest finished they said they didn’t like any of the names but chose a winner just for the sake of the contest anyway? XD

4 hours ago, Forwardnbak said:

in AUG? can anyone really confirm or are orders being placed? 

It’s written in their youtube video description: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5NlTqUgU84

For early order / testing out the wheel, they also put up a link to apply to be wheel testers  

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by sunstrong

[wstuart]

3 hours ago, That Guy said:

It's somewhat surprising to see how reserved the mood is about V13. :-) I am not sure why that could be, either our weariness from high expectations broken with a couple of wheels recently or InMotion managed to surprise us for real this time with this teaser... 

I am personally very excited about V13. I was excited about Abrams and almost bought it but its great idea was corrupted by under-thought engineering. I do expect a higher quality execution from InMotion and although would no longer put a deposit for any wheel before seeing a couple of reviews, I can imagine I'll buy V13.

Now, somehow I am not sure about those speculations of 60kg+ weight. Somehow I could imagine V13 to be in mid- to high- 40's. My simple (and maybe incorrect) first thought is that if it has 4,400wh battery ((c) GoGeorgeGo) then at 126V it is an equivalent of Sherman Max' battery. Then you have a suspension mechanism on V13 that might be just slightly heavier than that steel framing of Sherman (I understand that InMotion will be using aluminium for framing which is much lighter.) Then the main difference between V13 and Sherman Max' weight will be in the motor, which I think will be 5-6kg diff.

And finally... Just trying to read as much as possible between the lines of the hints of some people who know what this will be about, do I understand right that InMotion are going to offer an optional automatic/electronic lock of the suspension at "above mid-speeds" (alarmed at just above 70kph on the teaser video?)??.... 

 

I think you're a little off

I really don't see how a 4400 wh 126v battery could be equivalent to the sherman max 3600wh 100v battery.  

That's more cells in series and in parallel. more cells = more mass.

Then you've got a motor that's bigger and heavier than the Sherman's.  

And a suspension system ways mote than a couple steel tubes..

Edited July 18, 2022 by wstuart

[That Guy]

42 minutes ago, wstuart said:

I think you're a little off

I really don't see how a 4400 wh 126v battery could be equivalent to the sherman max 3600wh 100v battery.  

That's more cells in series and in parallel. more cells = more mass.

Then you've got a motor that's bigger and heavier than the Sherman's.  

And a suspension system ways mote than a couple steel tubes..

Ah, yeah, maybe I am off. I just thought 4400*100/126=3400 (roughly), but yeah, it’s the config that matters probably.

[alcatraz]

4400Wh is not more cells in parallel, compared to a Sherman's 3600Wh, because of the similar voltage difference. 

[meepmeepmayer]

Yep it's both 8p (at 126V and 100V respectively).

But Wh are Wh and give you the number of cells, regardless of the voltage. The voltage just tells you how those cells are arranged. 4440Wh would be 240 cells, and 3600Wh is 192 cells. 25% more cells, 25% more battery weight.

Edited July 18, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[Robse]

6 hours ago, Unventor said:

I think you could look at this with more constructive eyes. 

Hall sensor problems are rare to happen on most models. Especially during riding. That does not mean it could not happen. And people here on the forum asked for backup systems and over enginered designs for some time. 

So we can't get a instant spare tire during riding. But it is relative simple to add a second hall sensor the kicks in if the first report error. I doubt it cost much to do, but that is just a guess. 

 

That said. Once it is in the flagship model this can find it's way to smaller models too as seen in other businesses. 

I agree on that, two is better than one.  (this does not apply regarding women... )   It's just the way it's told: "make sure no cutout happens"  should have been: "make sure no cutout happens in case of one hall sensor fail"    And again, i have not been into this "hobby" for more than 2 years, but i can not recall just a single instance of a cutout because of hall sensor failures, but there is plenty of "fried board", blown fuses, bump cutouts.. 

Regarding flagship an smaller models;  Your 100% right.  Same shit in the car business;  It took many many years for ABS to become standard in all cars, not only the top models.  etc.

[Freeforester]

‘I agree on that, two is better than one.  (this does not apply regarding women...’

That may be challenged - what part of Denmark are you living in?? 🤣👍🏻

[Wolverine]

 

 

[Paul g]

25 minutes ago, Wolverine said:

 

 

Adam is wright. In my view you can’t propose a 140kmph wheel when you can’t prove you can make a 70kmph one that you can ride safely. Who will dare to test that heavy wheel and at those speeds, since it will be much more dangerous from all points of view? 

[UniVehje]

20 hours ago, That Guy said:

It's somewhat surprising to see how reserved the mood is about V13. :-)

I'm excited! But at the same time I, and seemingly many other riders, have realised that this might not be their next wheel after all. If you were not the target audience of Monster and Abrams, then you are not target of this wheel either. I'm personally still excited to follow the reveal and definitely will consider it for next season. But the hesitation comes from realising the cost of achieving those speeds. Not only in money but especially in losing nimbleness, agility, portability and efficiency. Am I ready to have those worse than before just to gain potentially higher speed that I don't need? If the speed would come without compromises, then I wouldn't care and would be very eager to pre-order already. The reserved mood is because I might have to keep waiting for the smaller successor of V13. It sure looks promising, though! 

 

[wstuart]

17 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Yep it's both 8p (at 126V and 100V respectively).

But Wh are Wh and give you the number of cells, regardless of the voltage. The voltage just tells you how those cells are arranged. 4440Wh would be 240 cells, and 3600Wh is 192 cells. 25% more cells, 25% more battery weight.

Really???  I would think that higher voltage also means more cells.  

84.4 is 20 cells in series

100.8v is 24 cells in series

126v is 28 cells in series.

So if you have a 8p 100v 3600wh pack and a 8p 126v 3600wh pack, wouldn't the 126v pack weight more because each of those parallel groups of cells would have 24 cells in it, not 20.  The 126v pack would have 8x24 cells (176cells) and the 100v would have 8x20, (160 cells).

I'm hoping you can tell me I'm wrong because with my thinking, I'm not seeing how the v13 would be under 120lb.

A 126v 4400wh pack would weigh alot more than a Shermax battery.  Then you have that fancy motor that will weigh more than the 40lb C40 motor on the EX.  That's probably 110lbs without suspension and 120lbs with suspension..... at least.  

Who could ride that??

To me, this only works if the use Molicel cells.  With their 20amp discharge rate they could maybe have a 2400wh pack at 126 v and still be able to give that motor what it needs to do 70mph.

Edited July 18, 2022 by wstuart

[Nick McCutcheon]

On 7/17/2022 at 4:01 AM, techyiam said:

When you ride at 50+ mph on the Master, are the roads that you ride on, smooth? Is the ride at that point secure and calm, or skittish? What tire do you have on, and what is your tire pressure? Is the braking good enough to match?

50+ mph speeds are considered highway speeds. Where can you cruise at those speeds? Also, do you have enough range, while cruising at those speeds.

It would be something if the V13 can beat out the Master in this use case. Exciting times. Thanks.

The roads are in general pretty smooth, but the suspension does a spectacular job of smoothing out imperfections. It feels pretty secure, I never really feel not in control. I have the IRC NR77 at 40psi, and yes the braking is pretty nice with the C38 motor. A C30 Master would be awesome, but I don't know if the electronics would be up to the task of actually going that fast without a bigger battery or more powerful motor, with wind resistance and all that. This is probably the reason why the V13 has to have a motor a full 1000W more powerful than what we've seen thus far. 

I'm talking in terms of wheel speeds, they actually translate to high 40's GPS. Multiplying the wheel speed by 0.9 is usually a good way to get your real speed.

There's a lot of 45mph streets around me where everybody drives at 50. I can pass or keep pace with a lot of cars, but I usually just stay in the bike lane (if there's no actual bikes, passing close to them at speed is rude in my eyes) or in the right lane unless I'm going to turn left or pass some really slow traffic. A lot of cars still do end up passing me.

I usually don't go more than about 15 miles without charging, I've never done a full range test because the beeps start to come too early 😅 Although, I imagine I would get somewhere around 35-40 miles riding the beeps the entire time, a bit lower than Alien Rides' range test.

On 7/17/2022 at 5:11 AM, mike_bike_kite said:

It's nice to have ambitions in life but have you ever considered a more suitable form of transport? 

I just love being able to take the wheel inside, it's so compact and nobody ever refuses to let me take it in. Power scooters and just straight up motorcycles are appealing to me, but having to park a shiny power scooter outside or register a motorcycle are a lot less appealing. I'm sure if I tried to bring a Rion or WePed in somewhere, they'd tell me I can't have that inside. Wrong Way has a great video on this topic.

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, wstuart said:

Really???  I would think that higher voltage also means more cells.  

84.4 is 20 cells in series

100.8v is 24 cells in series

126v is 28 cells in series.

So if you have a 8p 100v 3600wh pack and a 8p 126v 3600wh pack, wouldn't the 126v pack weight more because each of those parallel groups of cells would have 24 cells in it, not 20.  The 126v pack would have 8x24 cells (176cells) and the 100v would have 8x20, (160 cells).

I'm hoping you can tell me I'm wrong because with my thinking, I'm not seeing how the v13 would be under 120lb.

A 126v 4400wh pack would weigh alot more than a Shermax battery.  Then you have that fancy motor that will weigh more than the 40lb C40 motor on the EX.  That's probably 110lbs without suspension and 120lbs with suspension..... at least.  

Who could ride that??

To me, this only works if the use Molicel cells.  With their 20amp discharge rate they could maybe have a 2400wh pack at 126 v and still be able to give that motor what it needs to do 70mph.

3 numbers: voltage, battery size in Wh (or rather the number of cells, because different cells can have different Wh per cell, but let's assume we only use the same cells for now, so it corresponds to each other), and how many p's you have. You can fix two of those numbers and it will determine the third. But you can't fix all three numbers independently like you did in your example. And the number of cells/battery size in Wh obviously determines the weight of the battery.

So for example, an 8p 126V battery would be

30 cells in series (4.2V max cell voltage*30=126V) * 8 (8 times in parallel) * 3.7V nominal cell voltage * 5000mAh per cell = 4440Wh battery size  with 30*8=240 cells

and an 8p 100V battery would be

24 * 8 * 3.7V * 5000mAh = 3552Wh (= "3600"Wh) battery size with 24*8=192 cells.

So the 126V battery can either be 3600Wh or 8p, but not both (unless you had lower capacity cells that happen to balance that out). A 21700 cell weighs about 70g, so you can estimate the battery weight for a given battery size/number of cells.

-

I also wonder if the 4440Wh rumor makes sense. Because, as you rightly say, it would have to be crazy heavy (an expensive). But who knows, maybe they just go for insane specs above all. And all that speed will have a huge power consumption, so maybe it's simply necessary to have a huge battery. The fact that they mentioned motor weights but didn't say their motor weight also makes me believe their motor is lighter than the other motors.

From experience, anything 4p or more has typically been good enough for the high performance wheels, with the standard lower discharge cells. That would be 2220Wh like the S22.

What battery size to expect? I have no idea. For comparison: 5p is 2775Wh, 6p is 3330Wh (might be a realistic compromise!), 7p is 3885Wh, and 8p is 4440Wh as before (all using the common 5000mAh cells).

Edited July 18, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[alcatraz]

I guess it's a 6P like the EX.N. That makes it 30S6P, 180 cells, 12.6kg, 3330Wh.

[yoos]

9 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

6p is 3330Wh (might be a realistic compromise!)

I would say 4p high-discharge seems enough (for p42a 21700 cells 6p means a continuous current of 6x45A=180A which is just above the limit for the V13 motor wiring (they mention 160A continuous in the video)). However I would prefer 5p or 6p high-discharge which would give better headroom, especially for peak currents. 6p @ 124V is not that many cells: 50% more cells than the S22 but still fewer than the ShermanMax. So it does not have to be particularly heavy in the end (though I believe it will still be in the overweight 40kg-60kg range). Eventually the heavy motor problem will be solved by a proprietary axial flux motor in the inmotion V21X+ starting at 11 999$...

[Paradox]

23 minutes ago, yoos said:

Eventually the heavy motor problem will be solved by a proprietary axial flux motor in the inmotion V21X+ starting at 11 999$...

When do pre-orders open! 

[That Guy]

7 hours ago, Wolverine said:

 

 

From MADpack's video:

1. The battery will be able to do 200km of range most likely to be no less than 3200wh,

2. Potentially modular design of the battery - ability to connect extra battery (like 1700 base and 3200 top),

3. 160kg maximum weight of the rider,

4. Err.... 34kg (?!?) weight (what the?.... is it for the "base"/small battery configuration?),

5. Suspension only wheel (and no mentioning of "two wheels"),

6. (observed in the teaser video) No cutoff even at 143kph,

7. Maximum (riding?) speed 100kph (43kph safety margin).

Thoughts? :-)

[wstuart]

1 minute ago, That Guy said:

From MADpack's video:

1. The battery will be able to do 200km of range most likely to be no less than 3200wh,

2. Potentially modular design of the battery - ability to connect extra battery (like 1700 base and 3200 top),

3. 160kg maximum weight of the rider,

4. Err.... 34kg (?!?) weight (what the?.... is it for the "base"/small battery configuration?),

5. Suspension only wheel (and no mentioning of "two wheels"),

6. (observed in the teaser video) No cutoff even at 143kph,

7. Maximum (riding?) speed 100kph (43kph safety margin).

Thoughts? :-)

Oh ok - that makes sense, modular battery.  

[wstuart]

I think Wrongway makes a good point:  Who would ride like this and where?  There's videos of brave folks who cruise at 45mph on mountain roads, but I think thats the exception.  Also those guys usually like to jump off of stuff and do stunt offroad riding.  I agree with wrongway that this would be too big and heavy for thar. 

 

I think the distinction between riders has been visible in group rides.  I've been on a couple large group rides where most of us stay in the bike lane.  A handful of riders take their Commander HS wheels out into the street and go 40mph with traffic.  That's just not me.  I guess there are some roads that are empty and long enough where 40+mph is fun and useful, but I agree with Adam that the 16x 18xl and V11 meets the needs of most of the market.

Now I'm being a total hypocrite.  I'll probably want one and might even get one, just not the first batch.  

 

[wstuart]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

3 numbers: voltage, battery size in Wh (or rather the number of cells, because different cells can have different Wh per cell, but let's assume we only use the same cells for now, so it corresponds to each other), and how many p's you have. You can fix two of those numbers and it will determine the third. But you can't fix all three numbers independently like you did in your example. And the number of cells/battery size in Wh obviously determines the weight of the battery.

So for example, an 8p 126V battery would be

30 cells in series (4.2V max cell voltage*30=126V) * 8 (8 times in parallel) * 3.7V nominal cell voltage * 5000mAh per cell = 4440Wh battery size  with 30*8=240 cells

and an 8p 100V battery would be

24 * 8 * 3.7V * 5000mAh = 3552Wh (= "3600"Wh) battery size with 24*8=192 cells.

So the 126V battery can either be 3600Wh or 8p, but not both (unless you had lower capacity cells that happen to balance that out). A 21700 cell weighs about 70g, so you can estimate the battery weight for a given battery size/number of cells.

-

I also wonder if the 4440Wh rumor makes sense. Because, as you rightly say, it would have to be crazy heavy (an expensive). But who knows, maybe they just go for insane specs above all. And all that speed will have a huge power consumption, so maybe it's simply necessary to have a huge battery. The fact that they mentioned motor weights but didn't say their motor weight also makes me believe their motor is lighter than the other motors.

From experience, anything 4p or more has typically been good enough for the high performance wheels, with the standard lower discharge cells. That would be 2220Wh like the S22.

What battery size to expect? I have no idea. For comparison: 5p is 2775Wh, 6p is 3330Wh (might be a realistic compromise!), 7p is 3885Wh, and 8p is 4440Wh as before (all using the common 5000mAh cells).

Thankyou!!! This totally helped me.  Makes sense!

I'm a math teacher, so I really appreciate when someone explains a concept clearly!  

[yoos]

5 hours ago, wstuart said:

Who would ride like this and where?

Perhaps the V13 is the first wheel that demonstrates the engineering prowess of Inmotion, a display of what they are capable of. It is not meant to be a widely sold and profitable EUC. This would be the next hallmark of a mature industry and serious market. The whole industry of F1 racing, Moto GP etc is not about "who would ride those cars and where". It's about image, reputation, prestige for the car brands participating. In a market as big as the car industry it makes perfect sense to invest money into building the fastest vehicle ever just to advertise the brand. So, the Challenger would not be a Honda Civic and not even a S-Klasse AMG but rather a McLaren F1 with limited use to the regular customer. Of course there will still be riders who buy it without ever riding that fast (just like people buy Bugattis in countries where the absolute top speed allowed anywhere is 30% of the Veyron's max speed). And the V13 is also primed toz dominate the races! The V13 project is a smart and not that expensive way to lose the "retired man's Mercedes" veneer and snatch the "performance brand" sticker from Begode.

[Tawpie]

6 hours ago, wstuart said:

Who would ride like this and where?  There's videos of brave folks who cruise at 45mph on mountain roads

Who? Brave folks who cruise 45 mph on mountain roads and have have grown tired of watching the rear ends of Master owners fading into the distance! They'll sell more than a few, of that I am certain.

(Not to me though. I'll be back there with the old codgers, first aid kit will be somewhere in my kit)

Edited July 19, 2022 by Tawpie

[Xodarap1]

Rider weight vs wheel weight.  65 lb wheel with a 130-180 lb rider.  120 lb wheel with 240-290 lb rider.

I'm sure they will continue promoting all the new top of the line wheels to lower weight riders that will get the best range and performance from them in reviews as its better for sales.  I just wanted to mention that a more powerful 120 lb wheel to a 250 lb rider would feel like a RS does to a 140 lb rider, without crushing the battery if they drive it like they stole it lol.  And of course, a jockey on the 120 lb wheel would enjoy the speed and power even more but at the price of decreased maneuvering.  The sherman is heavy and it did well in sales overall.  35 or so more pounds isn't that big of a deal to some.  Reliability and durability will end up being a huge factor as they push the envelope.