INMOTION V12 (pre-release)

[GPW]

35 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The point was not so much to bash the amount of peer revieweable scientific content of Adam’s acceleration tests, but to explain that his acceleration times have exactly zero relevance to what you’re after.

 Firstly, do you want to achieve the absolutely fastest acceleration by any means necessary, or do you want the acceleration to be effortless so that a smaller lean would cause a faster acceleration? Because they come from different parameters of the wheel. So you may need to think it through more closely than just “maxing out the acceleration”.

 If you want to accelerate as fast as possible by any means necessary, you need pads that make you feel secure while leaning forward like crazy on an EUC that has huge amounts of absolute power, the kind that the MSP and EX.N are famous for. But accelerating like that takes a lot of effort.

 If you want the most effortless acceleration, you need a small tire diameter. Simple as that. The riding mode affects this as well, so be sure to stay away from the hardest riding modes. Inmotion has the best adjustability, but every manufacturer has a signature feel that you need to familiarize yourself with in order to choose the best match for you. The Mten3 might have the most effortless acceleration, but it comes with several great costs. So you need to pick the smallest tire size you can live with.

 

 But looking for a wheel that is best on one aspect only is a bit narrow minded, and may result in a crappy or short lived overall experience. All modern EUCs can accelerate like crazy, and choosing suitable pads and a soft enough riding mode will make any wheel accelerate with a reasonable amount of effort. But a lot of other aspects are simply not available on some wheels.

Not sure there is any real disagreement here ....... I think you might be debating a view I never expressed. Actually, hadn't intended to express any personal view or wholistic appraisal at all. I hoped only to shed some light on a narrow question with a relevant albeit limited comparison from Adam's videos since I happen to have just sought the info out of curiosity. I had no intention to assert what wheel was "best" outside the scope of that narrow question, or even that those data points served as any definitive evidence within the narrow question. If you want to know what wheel I think is best? Well, I will most likely vote with my wallet. See the V12 as a huge upgrade over my 16x for a whole variety of reasons.     

[meepmeepmayer]

2 minutes ago, Averian said:

Doesn't it seem like an odd design choice for a 16" wheel to be pushed in the direction of speed instead of torque?

1. Speed sells.
2. You can always force more torque out of a wheel, by going "YOLO just use more battery power lol". But you can't force more speed out of a wheel, the motor is wound for a top speed and that's it.
   So you can always change the firmware to give more torque at the expense of efficiency/range, but you can't increase the designed speed after the fact.

I'm not saying I'm liking it, but these are two arguments why manufacturers might in doubt design for speed. I personally would love a super torquey wheel with a big enough tire (like the V12's 16x3) to be comfortable and stable offroad.

[Camenbert]

41 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 You can’t twist the wheel forward with your CoG on top of the axle

Sorry to see you dont get the point. Now it's not the subject here so I stop.
We can continue later if you have try in soft sand. It's obvious there.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Camenbert

[pkinpdx]

Update from Ewheels on V12 preorders:  Cost is $2199 and first shipment should be in the US in 5-6 weeks (so end of june).

 

[RagingGrandpa]

21 hours ago, wheel-life said:

Since this is the 16X motor but wound for speed, think there's a noticeable difference in acceleration vs the 16X?

16X can make more torque at 5mph.

Would you notice?
Only if you lean hard enough

Thought starter below... substitute C30 -> V12 and C38 -> 16X.

[AtlasP]

2 hours ago, Averian said:

I think Camenbert has a good point here. Doesn't it seem like an odd design choice for a 16" wheel to be pushed in the direction of speed instead of torque? 

A smaller wheel has inherent advantages for acceleration/torque along with the mentioned benefits of cooler running and better range. I was under the impression most people would only feel comfortable at 40+ mph on an 18" or bigger wheel because of the additional stability a bigger wheel provides. On the current small 14" wheel I have, the MCM5, there are plenty of comments on 28+ mph being MORE than fast enough.

Wouldn't the V12 find it's niche better as a super snappy well built medium size wheel with solid range instead of going for outright speed where it really can't compete?

You act like 100v speeds + 16x3 tire is some weird new thing. It's just an iteration of the formula established with the 100v Nikola, one of the better-reviewed and better-selling, non-entry-level wheels from a few years ago. (Both Marty Got Backe and MickEVX Mouse claimed that it was "the best" to buy for a span of time.)

Regarding the tuning, there are lots of riders who start to hit beeps on their wheels that max out around 30 mph and therefore want a little more from their next wheel--not because they're suddenly speed demons who want to go 40+ mph, but they want to be able to approach somewhere in the 30s mph with some headroom to spare for safety, so something rated at 40/42 mph sounds great. (I'd wager that the number of riders in this category are 99:1 against those who will actually ever cross the 40 mph threshold.) And a wheel wound for top speed of 40/42 mph makes more sense for them than one that's wound for torque that tops out somewhere in the 30s/only 5 or 8 mph higher than their previous wheel.

Edited May 19, 2021 by AtlasP

[AtlasP]

1 hour ago, pkinpdx said:

Update from Ewheels on V12 preorders:  Cost is $2199 and first shipment should be in the US in 5-6 weeks (so end of june).

Source? (Not doubting you, just it seems they haven't updated their website to reflect this yet.) Email/phone call?

Edit: awesome, thx.

Edited May 19, 2021 by AtlasP

[jimjam.nyc]

1 minute ago, AtlasP said:

Source? (Not doubting you, just it seems they haven't updated their website to reflect this yet.) Email/phone call?

It went out to people who pre ordered.

 

[pkinpdx]

Email

 

[Scottie888]

Wow that's cheaper than Ali pricing by a decent amount! KingLocksong has a few things to learn from IM on distribution & IM don't even need to blame their domestic dealers nor come up with the dumbiest of dumdums 'we'll turn your wheels into giant paperweights' strategy.

Good for Ewheels!

[Mike Sacristan]

The Nikola Plus has a free spin of 85kmh and the 5 beeps come in at 64kmh and 100% battery.
They will trigger at 63kmh though since you won't be at 100% battery and 64kmh at the same time unless you are blasting down a steep hill.
Highest speed I have seen on a Nik+ is 72.3kmh by my 100kg friend riding seated. Or 75kmh by my friend crashing.
Typically the Nik will run out of torque and over lean at around that speed.
I normally hit the beeps on every ride despite having a 2664Wh Nik which is why I upgraded to the EXN.

Sherman, Nikola Plus and Monster speeds seem inflated by around 6-8% compared to the EXN. 70kmh = 65-66kmh.
My EXN has a free spin speed of 95.x kmh and the 5 beeps kick in at around 73kmh at full battery and 66kmh at half battery. 61kmh at 80V.

The V12 free spin speed does indeed sound very fantastic. I wonder if the speed is as inflated as the V11 was where fancy mode 55kmh was 51kmh in reality.

The Nik is notorious for skipping through magnets in the soft mode. Less so in medium and much more difficult in hard mode.
An MSP HT with C38 magnets is a chore to get to skip and requires a heavy rider and a heavy drop... until you hit 30% battery or around 85V. Then you can start to pedal dip it with heavy accelerations at around 40kmh but it will only speed beep you at 51kmh and Amp warn you after you have fallen at 45kmh.

An EXN is hard to skip magnets on unless you torque it at above 60kmh or slow speed torque it with aggressive pads on the hard mode... especially backwards (back heavy).

Riding in sand or dirts is a matter of accelerating gently to succeed or like an idiot to burn out... and twisting only serves to correct the wheel. With pads it might seem like we can torque the wheel by twisting but that is because we can apply forward pressure to only one pad and it will translate to forward pressure for the entire wheel.

You can twist left and right infinitely and maintain balance without going forward. But you can not lean forward without applying forward torque... or do an extreme forward lean and apply too much torque with so little friction that the wheel will simply do a burn out and you fall... like I did on wet artificial grass the other day... with locked in pedals and spikes... now I know what it fees like to get punched in the solar plexus and kicked in the balls at the same time. Usually it has been one or the other.

 

 

[Scottie888]

11 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

My EXN has a free spin speed of 95.x kmh..

My buds in the far east free spun the RS, Sherm, EX.N & even the Mpro. His EX.N spins to ~105kph. I wonder why there such a discrepancy to yours Mike. FWIW he too loves his EX.N perhaps as much or even more than his Sherm.

Free spin tests on EX.N is at 10.24

 

[Mike Sacristan]

7 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

My buds in the far east free spun the RS, Sherm, EX.N & even the Mpro. His EX.N spins to ~105kph. I wonder why there such a discrepancy to yours Mike. FWIW he too loves his EX.N perhaps as much or even more than his Sherm.

Free spin tests on EX.N is at 10.24

 

Pre-production EXN had ~105kmh free spin.
Early production has ~95kmh.
Later versions  are back to ~105... I wonder if his came with the black board (judging by dat of clip definitely not).
However... I am more than happy with my EXN and I suspect that if it did go faster I would end up losing some low end grunt.
As it is now it is a stupidly fast MSX and a great do it all wheel. Now I just have to learn to jump to backside 180 on it.

It is quite well known amongst the EXN nerds that the speed ended up at 95kmh upon production.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Mike Sacristan
added text

[Scottie888]

5 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Pre-production EXN had ~105kmh free spin.
Early production has ~95kmh.
Later versions  are back to ~105... I wonder if his came with the black board.
However... I am more than happy with my EXN and I suspect that if it did go faster I would end up losing some low end grunt.
As it is now it is a stupidly fast MSX and a great do it all wheel. Now I just have to learn to jump to backside 180 on it.

Awesome, thanks for the clarification Mike. Gerald has a dude in his crew weighing 120kg that has hit 82kph on the EX.N. Stupid fast is correct & I'm liking the reference to MSX handling. I'm deeply pondering on gettin an EX.N myself. Just hummin & hawin whether GW has the bearings issue handled as yet.

Anyhoos pardon my distraction. Now back to scheduled programming on the V12 👍

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, GPW said:

Not sure there is any real disagreement here ....... I think you might be debating a view I never expressed.

Ah, I’m sorry I misunderstood! It’s sometimes too easy to see a familiar debate even when there is none...

 

Quote

See the V12 as a huge upgrade over my 16x for a whole variety of reasons.     

Absolutely, I would too!

Edited May 20, 2021 by mrelwood

[Todd Fahrner]

On 5/19/2021 at 2:25 PM, AtlasP said:

Regarding the tuning, there are lots of riders who start to hit beeps on their wheels that max out around 30 mph and therefore want a little more from their next wheel--not because they're suddenly speed demons who want to go 40+ mph, but they want to be able to approach somewhere in the 30s mph with some headroom to spare for safety, so something rated at 40/42 mph sounds great.

This describes my interest in V10F -> V12 perfectly. I appreciate the safety-conservative design and build quality of the V10F, can't see myself using a Sherman anywhere near its potential, am put off by GW/Begode's poor build quality and lack of safety features, but am just not happy that I'm frequently hitting beeps with V10F (especially when mixing up with traffic where my safety depends partly upon keeping up with the flow), and that I can easily run out the battery far from home. V12 seems to tick all my boxes. I am suspension-curious, but frankly I think the lack of suspension is what's keeping me from wanting to go stupid fast. Rough pavement, potholes, moments of inattention: I respect these threats, and suspension might push me firmly into the Darwin zone of risk homeostasis. I mean, already I don't always gear up completely, and that's another thing that keeps my speeds down.

[onizukagto]

19 hours ago, Todd Fahrner said:

This describes my interest in V10F -> V12 perfectly. I appreciate the safety-conservative design and build quality of the V10F, can't see myself using a Sherman anywhere near its potential, am put off by GW/Begode's poor build quality and lack of safety features, but am just not happy that I'm frequently hitting beeps with V10F (especially when mixing up with traffic where my safety depends partly upon keeping up with the flow), and that I can easily run out the battery far from home. V12 seems to tick all my boxes. I am suspension-curious, but frankly I think the lack of suspension is what's keeping me from wanting to go stupid fast. Rough pavement, potholes, moments of inattention: I respect these threats, and suspension might push me firmly into the Darwin zone of risk homeostasis. I mean, already I don't always gear up completely, and that's another thing that keeps my speeds down.

You said everything that I've been thinking as well. I'm forced to slow down on my daily commute on some sections because of uneven bike paths and roads, but on the smooth straight sections I'm regularly hitting beeps that I'm not comfortable riding on. 

At the same time that I want extra speed, my knees will appreciate suspension... It's a hard call. 

Just gotta see if the V11 drops in price and whether the difference/quality of the first batch of V12 is worth the value/performance to skip suspension. 

[MacGyverCanada]

Quote

See the V12 as a huge upgrade over my 16x for a whole variety of reasons.   

GPW / mrelwood what makes you say that?  Right now the 16x is top-of-the-list for my second wheel purchase (range + off-road) but I'm holding out to see what the V12 brings in its production model.

Edited May 31, 2021 by macgyvercanada

[KAY GEE]

3 hours ago, macgyvercanada said:

GPW / mrelwood what makes you say that?

100v for starters.

[MacGyverCanada]

1 hour ago, KAY GEE said:

100v for starters.

True dat, but counter-balance with built-for-speed motor windings.  If the V12 can handle off-road better than most then I'm still interested, but I don't have any particular desire to hit 70 km/h on a 16" wheel...

[KNZ]

One thing I’m most excited about on this wheel are the customization options! Shallow, I know, but the features are just so COOL!

[Rywokast]

11 hours ago, macgyvercanada said:

GPW / mrelwood what makes you say that?  Right now the 16x is top-of-the-list for my second wheel purchase (range + off-road) but I'm holding out to see what the V12 brings in its production model.

its better in literally every single way... speed, electronics, safety, battery capacity, customization (being able to raise the pedals automatically makes it a better offroading wheel) and the touch screen looks awesome, i hate having to get out my phone or bring a watch.... even discounting its rocky past the 16X is a quite average wheel... its not a bad wheel by any means it just doesnt excel in any category... unfortunately i think both wheels are quite ugly, though i will be getting a V12 and hopefully there will be an euc bodyguard made for it  

[GPW]

13 hours ago, macgyvercanada said:

GPW / mrelwood what makes you say that?  Right now the 16x is top-of-the-list for my second wheel purchase (range + off-road) but I'm holding out to see what the V12 brings in its production model.

The big one for me is the extra headroom on speed. Its not that I am a frequent high speed rider (far from it), but the the few times I have pushed my 16x above 25mph it's because I was trying to create space for safety reasons. I would prefer in those situations not to need to think about how close I might be to the wheel's limit. 

I also think the waterproof rating would add a big layer of comfort. Doubt I will seek out riding in the rain, but would take comfort in knowing the wheel should be ok if I get caught in the rain.

The third major item is the adjustable pedals. I don't spend any time off roading, and would prefer the added stability of lower pedal height. 

See the customization options as interesting and the screen as nice to have.

[Unreal]

Not sure, but this may be the production version of the V12: https://youtu.be/NHFQzYc0JSY

The handle looks neatly clipped in compared to people that had pre-production models. 

Seems as if LED (at least brake light) seemed brighter?

Does the touch screen look brighter as well?

Would need someone that actually had a pre-prod version chime in.

I also noticed there was a sticker above the touch screen that said "V11 Series" on it still.

[Camenbert]

15 minutes ago, Unreal said:

Not sure, but this may be the production version of the V12: https://youtu.be/NHFQzYc0JSY

Hi and welcome!

We can see the 2.3A charger and few other details that confirm it's the production version