INMOTION V12 (pre-release)

[xSAMCOx]

Wrong way has a upcomming v12 unboxing the 15th...

[Mango]

If I didn’t have a V10f or Sherman, getting the V12 would be a no-brainer. But as a first or second wheel, this is the choice I would recommend someone get. I think Inmotion has a real winner on their hands.

 

For me, I am going to wait out 2021 and hope Inmotion comes out with an updated V11 with >1800wh battery, touch display and larger v12-style heatsink. They can carry over the beautiful cyclops headlamp design.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Mango

[Unventor]

I wounder if whenever Inmotion next wheel is due wouldn't it not just be easier to take all numbers and add 10% and then we can have that same debate all over. To me that is what that is going on every bloody time.

Speed speed speed. There are other things too. And if speed is your thing, just don't look at the Inmotion or KS wheels. It has to do with company philosophy of design. That is very unlikely to change. Especially since we don't see their reps here on the forum anymore. And in Inmotion case question if we will see a pr/brand rep like a Liam was. 

The only thing I see going on here is the debate blue vs reds. Yes or no. It is a very odd way for me to think that digital about a wheel. To me there are so much more to decide if a wheel would make sense me to buy. And yet if someone chose to buy or not it really doesn't mean it is the same decision that right for you or me. 

Now we have not yet seen a final product. And even if we had there are options for some changes though both firmware and hardware iteration.

Now some think the sherman was first with a display but I seem to recall the V3 series had a very simple touch display/control. I still think there are things people forget that Inmotion spend time on to develop. And add new innovative things isn't necessary about top speed. But more to do what every day experience. The things that make the wheel a pleasure to use and ride. Just like most don't pick their car on top speed only. 

Now if I were to change the v12 to something more worth considering to me I would reconfigure battery from 100v to 84v with more parallel cell configuration. This is to off load stress on each cell group and be better range as top speed matters less. I would also add suspension to it, but this is too early to do this since lesson is still being learn from V11 design.

If you want to make a real fast EUC I personally think 16" is a bit short. Going 18" or 20" would be the way to go. It gives options for bigger shell to have bigger battery pack and in that case 100v would make sense.

I do this looking at what is leaked or shared or how you now put it, is out there about the v12, it is no a top in class but good at many things wheel. How it rides I have no idea. I wouldn't just go by what YouTube subscription maker say, the do anything for money

[conecones]

12 hours ago, FinRider said:

The "rated" top speed of this wheel will be a non-issue. It is abundantly clear that the "enthusiasts" who want to push the wheel to the limit speedwise will not buy this wheel... there are better mousetraps out there for them. They know it and they do not need more information than what is available already.

This wheel will be targeted to the "larger masses", for whom 25 mph / 40 km/h is more than sufficient. The extra "omph" that this wheel is capable of should be used as a safety factor - more head room for the average user.

There are other factors that are way more important to Inmotion that will determine if they have developed a winning concept here... and in the end that will be measured by sales volumes, not by hurt feelings of a few that are "disappointed" in the wheels real world performance.

The list of features that really matter are imho probably (in no particular order):

• Safety
• Aesthetics
• Build Quality
• Waterproofing
• Mileage
• Customization possibilities

With EUC's we also should not stare blindly at the rated "specs". Mileage for example on cars are reported from laboratory conditions and we all know that they are not accurate, so we should not expect accurate reports from EUC manufacturers either, especially as so many external factors affect the performance of these wheels (rider weight, riding style, etc, etc.)

 

The V11 by all accounts is a superior non-enthusiast cruiser targeted at the larger masses who ride casually on bike paths and the such with no interested in mingling with road traffic, AND its cheaper! So then what really is the target for the V12? Is there a sub-segment of the "casual rider" market that would trade in suspension and bigger tire for a touch screen, extra 15km/h top speed, and pay extra $200 for it?? 

If the V12 is not targeted at enthusiasts, then someone please explain, and if it is, then the reasons why some are disappointed is pretty clear at this point.

[Phong Vu]

23 minutes ago, conecones said:

The V11 by all accounts is a superior non-enthusiast cruiser targeted at the larger masses who ride casually on bike paths and the such with no interested in mingling with road traffic, AND its cheaper! So then what really is the target for the V12? Is there a sub-segment of the "casual rider" market that would trade in suspension and bigger tire for a touch screen, extra 15km/h top speed, and pay extra $200 for it?? 

If the V12 is not targeted at enthusiasts, then someone please explain, and if it is, then the reasons why some are disappointed is pretty clear at this point.

As a casual rider, V11 is not a clear winner over V12 in my mind.
Kind of 2 different animals to me.

[BruceCLin]

2 minutes ago, conecones said:

The V11 by all accounts is a superior non-enthusiast cruiser targeted at the larger masses who ride casually on bike paths and the such with no interested in mingling with road traffic, AND its cheaper! So then what really is the target for the V12? Is there a sub-segment of the "casual rider" market that would trade in suspension and bigger tire for a touch screen, extra 15km/h top speed, and pay extra $200 for it?? 

If the V12 is not targeted at enthusiasts, then someone please explain, and if it is, then the reasons why some are disappointed is pretty clear at this point.

I own a V11 and I have a V12 on pre-order. The target of this wheel is me exactly. To clarify, I am not selling the V11. V11 serves perfectly as my cruising wheel. I have been looking to for a 16 inch wheel to take with me on trips. I have been using the V8 for that purpose. Problem with the V8 is that the range is not enough for me sometimes. I have to carefully plan where I can go at places I am not familiar with. There are times I barely made it back to the car or plane. When I look at all the 16 inch wheel available, there is always something that hold me back from purchasing. It's either the weatherproof-ness, build quality, range, speed, or something just not quite satisfactory. When the V12's spec leaked with the FCC doc, I thought this might be something to keep an eye on. And when evX's video dropped, I know this is it. This is what I am waiting for. On paper, this is the EUC I have always wanted. The build quality, weather resistance, lights, speakers, fat 16 inch tire, 100v performance, range, good trolly, it's has all I am asking for. The modern look and convenience of touchscreen with the on board customizability are icing on the cake. Now that was what's on paper and in my mind. When the production model gets in my hand, it might or might not be completely satisfactory. But if it's even close to my experience with the V11, I'll be happy.

[Rywokast]

53 minutes ago, conecones said:

The V11 by all accounts is a superior non-enthusiast cruiser targeted at the larger masses who ride casually on bike paths and the such with no interested in mingling with road traffic, AND its cheaper! So then what really is the target for the V12? Is there a sub-segment of the "casual rider" market that would trade in suspension and bigger tire for a touch screen, extra 15km/h top speed, and pay extra $200 for it?? 

If the V12 is not targeted at enthusiasts, then someone please explain, and if it is, then the reasons why some are disappointed is pretty clear at this point.

personally i dont want suspension... i would choose not to buy a wheel simply because it has suspension, its just another thing to worry about breaking, fixing, or maintain and i have never once felt the desire for any kind of suspension, just like riding road bikes with no suspension... and for me i would definitely pay 200 dollars more JUST for the extra 15 kph top speed.. i prefer overall the 16" tire because its compact yet the perfect balance of nimbleness and stability imo, i can take it on tight sidewalks with lots of people and i can take it on side of the road and keep up with cars... 14" is too small to feel as safe on the road and 18" is daunting for pedestrians and harder to navigate in tight spots... 16" is the perfect all rounder and i am extremely excited about this wheel, it seems perfect to me as a go to do everything wheel

[GoGeorgeGo]

5 hours ago, conecones said:

The V11 by all accounts is a superior non-enthusiast cruiser targeted at the larger masses who ride casually on bike paths and the such with no interested in mingling with road traffic, AND its cheaper! So then what really is the target for the V12? Is there a sub-segment of the "casual rider" market that would trade in suspension and bigger tire for a touch screen, extra 15km/h top speed, and pay extra $200 for it?? 

If the V12 is not targeted at enthusiasts, then someone please explain, and if it is, then the reasons why some are disappointed is pretty clear at this point.

The v11 is a monster offroading. It just crushes all terrain like no other wheel imo. It can ride in the street some but really cant keep up on 35 mph roads. Even when at full charge it still tops put at like a real world 32-33 mph. And goes down to about 28 after just 20% of battery. 

The v12 should be able to handle 35 mph real world speed and hopefully for a out 50% of the battery. And in contrast it can handle offroad as well as most non suspension wheels.

So to me their offerings target suburb riders like me that ride a lot of offroad trails with their v11. And the v12 targets urban riders who hardly see offroad and are mostly cruising in the streets.  

Then there is the pricepoint to consider. At 2200$, it competes nicely with other wheels in the 2000$ range. Talking about the nikola, RS, 18xl, the v11 and s18. In its price range, it delivers as much power as any other while also improving upon many aspects of those other wheels mentioned. 

It is a mid tier offering, a perfect choice for a city commuter or a hobbyists first real performance wheel. 

The true enthusiasts looking for top end performers, are shopping up in the 3500$ price range, with the sherman and Monster Pro being the leaders of that pack. And wheels like the EXN coming in at still 3000$, almost 50% more expensive than a v12.

I believe the 1800wh battery market is one of the largest growing in the hobby right now. It seems to be the sweet spot for both commuters and hobbyists alike. It makes sense to provide an offering in this class of wheel (i often see people class wheels by tire size which i think is the wrong way of thinking, price and battery size imo are the more important focus) and being a 100v 1750wh battery makes it as potent as the RS and Nikola making it the obvious choice imo of that wheel class besides the suspension wheels which are almost in a class of their own 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[BruceCLin]

Talking about offloading, I am actually looking forward to take the V12 for it. About half of my riding is on single tracks. Like other has pointed out, V11 is great at offroading. The suspension just smooths out so much and makes the ride so fluid. V11 made offroad into easy mode. It's almost too great at it. But that's also the reason I took the mten3 offroad instead sometimes. It's has a lot more "fun" moments. Now the V12 with a smaller than V11 wheel and no suspension, hopefully it will offer a more challenging and "fun" fill ride. In my mind, it's similar to my motorcycle days. I went from 250cc to liter super sport and back to 300cc. The liter was fast and fun for a while, but the rush of speed wore off quickly. It's almost too smooth and stable at speed, unless I was way too fast I wasn't even aware of it. Like the saying, "it's more fun riding the slow bike fast than riding the fast bike slow," I personally experienced it. In the same fashion, V12, being more challenging offroad, may offer the "fun" I am chasing after.

[Rawnei]

No matter how many rolling eyes emojis we can produce on this forum I think it's pretty clear this wheel is splitting the community. 😁

[stephen]

7 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

The v11 is a monster offroading. It just crushes all terrain like no other wheel imo. It can ride in the street some but really cant keep up on 35 mph roads. Even when at full charge it still tops put at like a real world 32-33 mph. And goes down to about 28 after just 20% of battery. 

The v12 should be able to handle 35 mph real world speed and hopefully for a out 50% of the battery. And in contrast it can handle offroad as well as most non suspension wheels.

So to me their offerings target suburb riders like me that ride a lot of offroad trails with their v11. And the v12 targets urban riders who hardly see offroad and are mostly cruising in the streets.  

Then there is the pricepoint to consider. At 2200$, it competes nicely with other wheels in the 2000$ range. Talking about the nikola, RS, 18xl, the v11 and s18. In its price range, it delivers as much power as any other while also improving upon many aspects of those other wheels mentioned. 

It is a mid tier offering, a perfect choice for a city commuter or a hobbyists first real performance wheel. 

The true enthusiasts looking for top end performers, are shopping up in the 3500$ price range, with the sherman and Monster Pro being the leaders of that pack. And wheels like the EXN coming in at still 3000$, almost 50% more expensive than a v12.

I believe the 1800wh battery market is one of the largest growing in the hobby right now. It seems to be the sweet spot for both commuters and hobbyists alike. It makes sense to provide an offering in this class of wheel (i often see people class wheels by tire size which i think is the wrong way of thinking, price and battery size imo are the more important focus) and being a 100v 1750wh battery makes it as potent as the RS and Nikola making it the obvious choice imo of that wheel class besides the suspension wheels which are almost in a class of their own 

 

Glad your wrote that @GoGeorgeGo saves me saying the same ,, I have the v11 there's no beating it for smoothness it's the only wheel I've rode that I actually aim for bumps and holes 😄,  I'd like more range so I've bought the exn sport torque probably an overkill but it's there when you need the power plus it's 2700wh/or 3150wh haven't decided yet , I've put my trusty old 16x for sale is been an excellent wheel and loved it for everything but I do think the v12 will be the go to wheel for everything as the 16inch was missing somethings for some people ,,safer speed 100v lights etc ,I think inmotion has covered everthing a 16x owner wanted,, for me you need at least 3 wheels for all your intended purposes , your never going to get one wheel the fits all but I do think inmotion has covered the 16" gap for your first proper wheel or for  first wheel or experienced riders but experienced/ long term riders will also have more than one wheel, if the v12 was out when I wanted to upgrade through the years it would of been perfect plus it would of saved me some upgrades lol

Edited May 12, 2021 by stephen

[conecones]

8 hours ago, Phong Vu said:

As a casual rider, V11 is not a clear winner over V12 in my mind.
Kind of 2 different animals to me.

Just curious as to what those reasons are?

8 hours ago, BruceCLin said:

I own a V11 and I have a V12 on pre-order. The target of this wheel is me exactly. To clarify, I am not selling the V11. V11 serves perfectly as my cruising wheel. I have been looking to for a 16 inch wheel to take with me on trips. I have been using the V8 for that purpose. Problem with the V8 is that the range is not enough for me sometimes. I have to carefully plan where I can go at places I am not familiar with. There are times I barely made it back to the car or plane. When I look at all the 16 inch wheel available, there is always something that hold me back from purchasing. It's either the weatherproof-ness, build quality, range, speed, or something just not quite satisfactory. When the V12's spec leaked with the FCC doc, I thought this might be something to keep an eye on. And when evX's video dropped, I know this is it. This is what I am waiting for. On paper, this is the EUC I have always wanted. The build quality, weather resistance, lights, speakers, fat 16 inch tire, 100v performance, range, good trolly, it's has all I am asking for. The modern look and convenience of touchscreen with the on board customizability are icing on the cake. Now that was what's on paper and in my mind. When the production model gets in my hand, it might or might not be completely satisfactory. But if it's even close to my experience with the V11, I'll be happy.

 You fly out with your wheel? Yeah I get the V11 is heavy but the V12 is not that much easier to lift around at 60+ lbs. Seems like the V10F would be a much easier choice at ~40lb and more range than V8 for making quick trips and it a hell of a lot cheaper.

7 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

The v11 is a monster offroading. It just crushes all terrain like no other wheel imo. It can ride in the street some but really cant keep up on 35 mph roads. Even when at full charge it still tops put at like a real world 32-33 mph. And goes down to about 28 after just 20% of battery. 

The v12 should be able to handle 35 mph real world speed and hopefully for a out 50% of the battery. And in contrast it can handle offroad as well as most non suspension wheels.

So to me their offerings target suburb riders like me that ride a lot of offroad trails with their v11. And the v12 targets urban riders who hardly see offroad and are mostly cruising in the streets.  

Then there is the pricepoint to consider. At 2200$, it competes nicely with other wheels in the 2000$ range. Talking about the nikola, RS, 18xl, the v11 and s18. In its price range, it delivers as much power as any other while also improving upon many aspects of those other wheels mentioned. 

It is a mid tier offering, a perfect choice for a city commuter or a hobbyists first real performance wheel. 

The true enthusiasts looking for top end performers, are shopping up in the 3500$ price range, with the sherman and Monster Pro being the leaders of that pack. And wheels like the EXN coming in at still 3000$, almost 50% more expensive than a v12.

I believe the 1800wh battery market is one of the largest growing in the hobby right now. It seems to be the sweet spot for both commuters and hobbyists alike. It makes sense to provide an offering in this class of wheel (i often see people class wheels by tire size which i think is the wrong way of thinking, price and battery size imo are the more important focus) and being a 100v 1750wh battery makes it as potent as the RS and Nikola making it the obvious choice imo of that wheel class besides the suspension wheels which are almost in a class of their own 

 

I disagree with putting V12 in the mid-tier category with the RS. They may cost about the same but don't perform the same. The RS is more stable with the bigger tire and the HS version free spins up to 100 km/h so can easily do bursts of 70+. I would put the RS in the enthusiast bracket along with the EX/EXN/Sherman, just with a smaller battery. 

My point about the V12 for urban use is it doesn't cross into the next speed bracket so its still going to be limited to 40km/h roads (where you to go 50 to keep up). A lot of other wheels can do this. I personally hoped for a non-gotway to let me use 60km/h roads and I have no need for the EX/Sherman weight/range. The RS has such bad waterproofing for my commuting use it wasn't ever a consideration. If the V12 was a solid contender for the RS/MSP - that would take a serious chunk out of Gotway's sales in the enthusiast market and this is where I think they missed their mark. The Nikola was never the Gotway flagship or bestseller so it's weird they targeted this market. It's the MSX/MSP/RS lineup that has kept Gotway so popular.

 

[gon2fast]

Working on a plan to pick up a V12 for the rest of the family, not first batch though. Seems more sensible to have a speed limited V12 around versus a V8 (and hover shoes LOL). Maybe I can dump the scooters too...

[Camenbert]

So now I want a V12 with S18 suspension !

 

I hope that's the V13 coming

Edited May 12, 2021 by Camenbert

[xSAMCOx]

How heavy is this wheel? 

[fbhb]

19 minutes ago, xSAMCOx said:

How heavy is this wheel? 

Ecodrift did their usual initial impressions and teardown recently, including this photo of the V12 on the scales.

@RagingGrandpa made another topic about it here:

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by fbhb

[RagingGrandpa]

8 hours ago, BruceCLin said:

V11 made offroad into easy mode.

"it's more fun riding the slow bike fast than riding the fast bike slow"

Your head is in the right place!

But...

8 hours ago, BruceCLin said:

take the V12 <offroad in midwest USA>

You might want to rethink that. V12 looks like the least-debris-tolerant internal fender in a while :/ 
I see logjams of sticks leaves and mud in your future.

[GoGeorgeGo]

9 hours ago, conecones said:

Just curious as to what those reasons are?

 You fly out with your wheel? Yeah I get the V11 is heavy but the V12 is not that much easier to lift around at 60+ lbs. Seems like the V10F would be a much easier choice at ~40lb and more range than V8 for making quick trips and it a hell of a lot cheaper.

I disagree with putting V12 in the mid-tier category with the RS. They may cost about the same but don't perform the same. The RS is more stable with the bigger tire and the HS version free spins up to 100 km/h so can easily do bursts of 70+. I would put the RS in the enthusiast bracket along with the EX/EXN/Sherman, just with a smaller battery. 

My point about the V12 for urban use is it doesn't cross into the next speed bracket so its still going to be limited to 40km/h roads (where you to go 50 to keep up). A lot of other wheels can do this. I personally hoped for a non-gotway to let me use 60km/h roads and I have no need for the EX/Sherman weight/range. The RS has such bad waterproofing for my commuting use it wasn't ever a consideration. If the V12 was a solid contender for the RS/MSP - that would take a serious chunk out of Gotway's sales in the enthusiast market and this is where I think they missed their mark. The Nikola was never the Gotway flagship or bestseller so it's weird they targeted this market. It's the MSX/MSP/RS lineup that has kept Gotway so popular.

 

While the RS may have slightly more pep, it still has the same range and pricepoint as the v12. So the v12 may not be an "RS Killer", but it is still firmly within the same class of wheel imo. The v12 has creature comforts and quality improvements that essentially make the Nikola obsolete, and force you to choose between those improvements or a slight performance boost. But again, if your truely that concerned with performance, your more likely to move up to an EXN which is basically a beefier RS. I think the v12 and RS sit firmly in the same category, with you basically needing to choose between larger tire size, or waterproof batteries and a touchscreen. Buying an RS as a 40 mph cruiser is a poor purchasing decision imo, if for no other reason than traveling at those speeds is going to deplete your battery in 20 or 30 minutes. Your going to need a beefier wheel almost immediately to satisfy those needs. In fact a local rider here just got an RS a month or 2 ago and now just got his new EXN yesterday lol 

Edited May 12, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[BruceCLin]

8 hours ago, conecones said:

 You fly out with your wheel? Yeah I get the V11 is heavy but the V12 is not that much easier to lift around at 60+ lbs. Seems like the V10F would be a much easier choice at ~40lb and more range than V8 for making quick trips and it a hell of a lot cheaper.

Just a light aircraft rental. I am fine with V11's weight. It's the size of my particular V11 with powerpads, fly pads, and hence the un-closeable thick honeycomb footpads made it unwieldy. V10F would probably be great for this purpose, but for $1500, $2200 is worth it for me to get much more wheel than the 20 extra pounds. If owning a large amount of different wheels is not a problem, it'd be great to have wheels for each purpose. But at least for now, I'll have to contend for wheels that serve multiple purposes.

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

You might want to rethink that. V12 looks like the least-debris-tolerant internal fender in a while :/ 
I see logjams of sticks leaves and mud in your future.

Yeah I saw that teardown. Hopefully it won't be too bad. So far with other wheels, I tend to take lines with more gravels than dirt and watch for the types of debris that I want to avoid. I haven't had too much problem with mud. My concern with those grooves has more to do with wet snow, because my current wheels already have snow jamming in there sometimes.

[Phong Vu]

9 hours ago, conecones said:

Just curious as to what those reasons are?

V11 slippery body required a pad (and it's a limited solution to put the pad on V11), especially with the pogo style suspension.
I have a very nimble 18" wheel, but I still remember and like the nimbleness of my old 16" wheel.
Not much, but I can see the V12 is a bit more compact.
V12 have led, I ride at night a lot, so I prefer my wheel light up all the way, as visible as possible.
Maintenance, maintenance, maintenance.

As I said, V11 is a very nice wheel, but not the clear winner here, it's up to people preference.

[yoos]

Yet again some good pricing news: ecodrift now offers preorder for the price 128k₽ (=1420€=1720$) sans warranty or for 138k₽(=1540€=1860$) with warranty. Mind you this is a semi-closed sale, it has only been announced in their telegram channel. You also have to fully prepay cash (or wire transfer, possibly), no credit cards etc, so this looks like the lowest it should ever get. Also the preorder price will go up as soon as orders come in (they warn about this). The general public price (with financing options, warranty etc) is 157k₽(=1750€=2110$). The first batch is expected by the end of June, and the second batch by the end of July. Those dates are tentative.

At those prices the wheel seems a great option  The only problem I would be personally having is the 29.6kg weight since I am a third-floor-no-elevator commuter. I hope the production version will be slightly lighter.

While we all wait for the event(s) on May 15th here is some input from russian reviewers. 1. A podcast, part of which was about V12 riding experience. The guys were very impressed by the algorithm, the absence of any pedal dip. They were also fixated on the handle, which they likened to a donkey phallus -- they are afraid the thing might hit riders hard on bumps and such. 2. The dismantling photo series already brought up by @RagingGrandpa and 3. a short driving report by the same ecodrift guy. He says that i) the headlights will be 80% brighter in production version. ii) the mudguard works well at below 25kmh and is useless above. iii) The tyre is CST but might be changed to Chao Yang. iv) The tyre is 16"x3" and a bigger one won't fit, there is not enough vertical space to fit it. v) the motor markings are the same as 16X.The strand and winding counts are different though.

He rode the V12 for 200km and had the following impression: more dynamic and more obedient (or controllable) than Nik+. The V12 needs powerpads and is docile without them. More responsive and agile than the MSP. Very stable. Apparently, in off-road regime the pedals tilt up a bit during rumbles to prevent feet from slipping forward.

Please don't start another brutal argument (hello, MSP fans!), this really is just a vague translation of some guy's impression of a preproduction wheel

Edit: some typos and off-road regime comment.

Edited May 13, 2021 by yoos

[Camenbert]

French review (I dont see how come they are first after evx...) presentation - it look like V12 video review are allowed from May 15 only

Info from this video : top speed is not (anymore) 70kph but 60kph...

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Camenbert

[Rollin-on-1]

15 hours ago, stephen said:

 I think inmotion has covered everthing a 16x owner wanted

But that V12 trolley tho 👎

[BruceCLin]

2 hours ago, Camenbert said:

Info from this video : top speed is not (anymore) 70kph but 60kph

Is this info correctly translated? When the caption stated 60 kmh in the video, the touchscreen clearly has 70kmh on the slider UI.

[jimjam.nyc]

Just now, BruceCLin said:

Is this info correctly translated? When the caption stated 60 kmh in the video, the touchscreen clearly has 70kmh on the slider UI.

I thought it said the pre-release wheel was limited at 60kmh which is not uncommon to have certain things limited in pre-release