meepmeepmayer Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Guys the battery is huge. In $/Wh this is a normal price. What did you expect? I would not spend like 4000 on an amateurish wheel like this either, though. The absolute price is too big, no matter how big that battery is. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Tucker Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Guys the battery is huge. In $/Wh this is a normal price. What did you expect? I would not spend like 4000 on an amateurish wheel like this either, though. The absolute price is too big, no matter how big that battery is. The new Veteran is on eWheels for $1000 less than this Monster Pro quote, but it has the same battery. What will Gotway offer that is worth $1000? Lights? Speaker? Seat? Mudguard?....Extra glue on MOSFETS!? Who will buy a $4000 first batch wheel with the most silly build quality flaws like misaligned tires, or spare pieces of wood for shims, random sized screws holding the board or fan, pedals with mismatched angles, used 21700 batteries, oscillation in firmware, fires!? It would be no surprise if the next reviewer opened the New Monster Pro for inspection and found a dead rat used to hold the batteries from bouncing around. The performance had better be epic to compete with the Sherman...but I fear it will be just a little bit better, then I'll have to decide if the law of diminishing returns is worth the pursuit of Gotway's performance lead. Edited July 4, 2020 by Michael Tucker humor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said: The new Veteran is on eWheels for $1000 less than this Monster Pro quote, but it has the same battery. What will Gotway offer that is worth $1000? 3600Wh Monster Pro vs. 3200Wh Sherman You want the absolute best range, you get the Monster Pro. It's not like I'm not tempted by that! But you're right. People who specifically want a Monster will pay even such a high price for it, and everyone else should just get a Sherman as a more reasonable choice. Maybe the new axle-free motor will be mirrored in a strongly improved internal quality of the shell, wiring, etc. Maybe it won't be the usual mess. But I'm not counting on it. Anyways, let's not discount this wheel before it's even out, but the Sherman will take away a few prospective buyers from it I'm sure. 21 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said: or spare pieces of wood for shims, random sized screws holding the board or fan, pedals with mismatched angles, used 21700 batteries, oscillation in firmware, fires!? It would be no surprise if the next reviewer opened the New Monster Pro for inspection and found a dead rat used to hold the batteries from bouncing around. Now that's where you went from normal, reasonable criticism, to Gotway hostility (Or you meant this as a joke, not sure.) Edited July 4, 2020 by meepmeepmayer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Just now, meepmeepmayer said: 3600Wh Monster Pro vs. 3200Wh Sherman I really really hope the competition and example from the Sherman and this Monster Pro means the next msuper will get 4 battery packs for 3600Wh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMA Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 people should never compare a 19' with a 24' wheel, they will ride completely different, there's no point imho 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeRide Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 The biggest problem is no user updatable firmware, in a product where the software is critical, from a company that does not have a solid record. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeRide Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 That said, the new motor design with the 24” wheel should be the smoothest ride ever on pavement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuerte Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 I am cautiously excited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Kim Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 On 7/2/2020 at 7:37 PM, Bvoland said: Excellent! I will check out the video. I just watched Kuji Rolls video and he evidently loves the wheel. He said it has never ending power up to 45 mph and it feels like a jet pack. He said that the ride and maneuverable are still fine even though it is a heavy wheel. His main complaints were pedal scrapping, convenience and the tire. I will probably swap out the pedals anyway for Nikola pedals and the tire with the street tread. I am not worried about convenience since this will be my cruising wheel and I could still keep it with me for outdoor setting at restaurant. After watching yours, Tishawn's and now Kuji Rolls video I am definitely considering the Veteran Sherman especially since there is not even a date for the release of the New Monster Pro with 4000W motor and 3600WH battery. Marty is doing his range test on Sunday since the delivery was delayed and I am curious to see what he gets. Kuji said that riding like him he could probably get 70 miles so the way Marty rides he is in for a long probably couple of days of riding. I would love to meet up with you guys and do some riding in NYC. I would have probably already gone out there for a couple of rides if it were not for this pandemic. This morning my buddy and I rode the Schuylkill River Trail to Philadelphia 42 miles it was a great ride. If you are ever in the Philadelphia area hit me up and we can do some riding. I’ll trade you minty Nik pedals for your stock veteran pedals. Unlike Kuji I find them PERFECT. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Kim Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 11 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: 3600Wh Monster Pro vs. 3200Wh Sherman You want the absolute best range, you get the Monster Pro. It's not like I'm not tempted by that! But you're right. People who specifically want a Monster will pay even such a high price for it, and everyone else should just get a Sherman as a more reasonable choice. Maybe the new axle-free motor will be mirrored in a strongly improved internal quality of the shell, wiring, etc. Maybe it won't be the usual mess. But I'm not counting on it. Anyways, let's not discount this wheel before it's even out, but the Sherman will take away a few prospective buyers from it I'm sure. Now that's where you went from normal, reasonable criticism, to Gotway hostility (Or you meant this as a joke, not sure.) Gotway considers a battery dead at 3.3v and Veteran 3.1v. The range difference may not be as big as you think at higher speeds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Kim Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 8 hours ago, EMA said: people should never compare a 19' with a 24' wheel, they will ride completely different, there's no point imho The Sherman ride actually reminds me of the current Monster more than it reminds me of the MSX. To be honest, it rides like nothing Gotway has ever made. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalfGlass Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Ben Kim said: The Sherman ride actually reminds me of the current Monster more than it reminds me of the MSX. To be honest, it rides like nothing Gotway has ever made. Interesting, in a way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will R Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 10 hours ago, FreeRide said: The biggest problem is no user updatable firmware, in a product where the software is critical, from a company that does not have a solid record. This is no longer the current line of prediction. It is likely they will have user-upgradable firmware once/if they feel the need to create it. The misconception arose from Vet saying new firmware was not needed to address the NYC crew's pedal dipping fiasco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HippoPig Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 6 hours ago, Ben Kim said: The Sherman ride actually reminds me of the current Monster more than it reminds me of the MSX. To be honest, it rides like nothing Gotway has ever made. Great to hear. I was so tempted by a monster. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 6 hours ago, Ben Kim said: Gotway considers a battery dead at 3.3v and Veteran 3.1v. The range difference may not be as big as you think at higher speeds. Interesting! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chulander Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 11 hours ago, FreeRide said: The biggest problem is no user updatable firmware, in a product where the software is critical, from a company that does not have a solid record. I think it's great that Gotway decided not to allow consumers to potentially update their controllers into a paperweight. Before anyone says "but apple/google phones can...", yes it's very possible to architect a rollback feature that ensures the files are not corrupted prior to the update. However, I would much rather prefer Gotway to focus their limited resources on their core competency (EUC performance or solve their durability/design woes). Providing child-proof update procedures to an existing codebase is a software engineering competency (which by the way is also google and apples forte) and IMO would needlessly expose Gotway to unnecessary risk for minimum improvement at best. You also have to consider the fact that power outages during an update would render the controller useless (apple/google has minimum battery requirements before allowing an update to proceed when the phones are not being charged). And yes, I am well aware that there are ways to re-flash a bricked controller but that type of expertise is beyond what a company can normally expect a consumer to have. i'm curious to hear what are your expectations in a firmware update @FreeRide? The only thing I can think of is pedal model stiffness/softness, but from what I gathered, 95% of the community hugs-and-tags the wheel in hard mode anyways. The hassle to provide child-proof OTA doesn't seem worth it even if I personally would love updates to change the pedal mode's softness. I'm sure @houseofjob would love that feature too 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will R Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, chulander said: I think it's great that Gotway decided not to allow consumers to potentially update their controllers into a paperweight. Before anyone says "but apple/google phones can...", yes it's very possible to architect a rollback feature that ensures the files are not corrupted prior to the update. However, I would much rather prefer Gotway to focus their limited resources on their core competency (EUC performance or solve their durability/design woes). Providing child-proof update procedures to an existing codebase is a software engineering competency (which by the way is also google and apples forte) and IMO would needlessly expose Gotway to unnecessary risk for minimum improvement at best. You also have to consider the fact that power outages during an update would render the controller useless (apple/google has minimum battery requirements before allowing an update to proceed when the phones are not being charged). And yes, I am well aware that there are ways to re-flash a bricked controller but that type of expertise is beyond what a company can normally expect a consumer to have. i'm curious to hear what are your expectations in a firmware update @FreeRide? The only thing I can think of is pedal model stiffness/softness, but from what I gathered, 95% of the community hugs-and-tags the wheel in hard mode anyways. The hassle to provide child-proof OTA doesn't seem worth it even if I personally would love updates to change the pedal mode's softness. I'm sure @houseofjob would love that feature too How speculative. I can say that firmware updates are the best thing about owning a KS18L, as over the time I have had it has just got better and better and better. Stiffer pedals, more responsive acceleration and braking, more torque for hills and with the 2.0 update, complete eradication of the high-pitched motor whine! Now there is just a very satisfying, very quiet whirr. Never have I experienced issues flashing new firmware, either, even with less than half battery. Gotway's main strongsuit is their programming prowess, famous for faster and stiffer rides than KS, I would have a little more faith in their ability to create updates 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chulander Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Will R said: How speculative. I can say that firmware updates are the best thing about owning a KS18L, as over the time I have had it has just got better and better and better. Stiffer pedals, more responsive acceleration and braking, more torque for hills and with the 2.0 update, complete eradication of the high-pitched motor whine! Now there is just a very satisfying, very quiet whirr. Never have I experienced issues flashing new firmware, either, even with less than half battery. Gotway's main strongsuit is their programming prowess, famous for faster and stiffer rides than KS, I would have a little more faith in their ability to create updates Consider yourself lucky that you were fortunate to be problem free. However, you are just 1 in a pool of consumers and while most of the time, things should update fine, sometimes they don't. So to project your own experiences as an absolute truth is short-sighted and "speculative" From your description, it sounds like KingSong's firmware updates resolved a list of problems that Gotway wheels don't have coming out of the factory ;). I'm not sure how I would feel about a wheel suddenly having "more torque" because that comes at the cost of a lower top speed (there's always a tradeoff). However, having the ability to adjust the power curve is an interesting feature and very cool if users were allowed to alter their profile. but again, change always introduces risk no matter how small. By the way, faster and stiffer pedals are unrelated. You prefer the stiffer setting because it allows you to over lean over the front of the wheel. There are other ways to generate torque without putting yourself in harms way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 (edited) Considering how few brickins by firmware update there is I wouldn’t call it “lucky” when it works as intended. All brands except Gotway are doing “over the air” updates all the time. If you are scared of updates just leave your firmware as it is. It certainly isn’t “putting yourself in harms way” to apply an update that will mostly consist of bug fixes and improvements though. It was developed just the same way your original firmware was, but with more time. Edited July 5, 2020 by null 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chulander Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 17 minutes ago, null said: Considering how few brickins by firmware update there is I wouldn’t call it “lucky” when it works as intended. All brands except Gotway are doing “over the air” updates all the time. If you are scared of updates just leave your firmware as it is. It certainly isn’t “putting yourself in harms way” to apply an update that will mostly consist of bug fixes and improvements though. It was developed just the same way your original firmware was, but with more time. Granted that About 385 results (0.56 seconds) has duplicates to the same thread. What's your definition of a few? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chulander Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 28 minutes ago, null said: Considering how few brickins by firmware update there is I wouldn’t call it “lucky” when it works as intended. All brands except Gotway are doing “over the air” updates all the time. If you are scared of updates just leave your firmware as it is. It certainly isn’t “putting yourself in harms way” to apply an update that will mostly consist of bug fixes and improvements though. It was developed just the same way your original firmware was, but with more time. i'm emphasizing that I would much rather prefer Gotway allocate its resources on more important things (like making sure all their wheels have thermal paste) versus hiring expensive software engineers to design a child-proof way to push vanity enhancements OTA. When other brands catch up to Gotway's performance like Veteran, and are also pushing useful enhancements OTA, then these complaints are warranted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, chulander said: Granted that About 385 results (0.56 seconds) has duplicates to the same thread. What's your definition of a few? How many where successful, how many where fixed? Without the success rate the failure numbers (and little verified at that) don’t mean much. Superstition and FUD. </me arguing here> edit: "Gotway person states that firmware updates are dangerous" Edited July 5, 2020 by null 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chulander Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, null said: How many where successful, how many where fixed? Without the success rate the failure numbers (and little verified at that) don’t mean much. Superstition and FUD. (/me arguing here) lol okay then mr. stubborn. if we're going down this route one could argue that Gotway spent their resources correctly so they don't need to push out OTA because their wheels outperforms the competition (minus Veteran). In fact, you can even argue that with all the firmware changes, the final product isn't even close to a stock Gotway in terms of performance Now if these brands are pushing updates so the wheel has more intensive blinking modes, one can't argue that. RGB life is for reals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will R Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 6 hours ago, chulander said: Consider yourself lucky that you were fortunate to be problem free. However, you are just 1 in a pool of consumers and while most of the time, things should update fine, sometimes they don't. So to project your own experiences as an absolute truth is short-sighted and "speculative" I'm not projecting my own experiences, the *considerable majority* of users have zero problems. There aren't going to be many search results for "firmware update goes perfectly fine" 😂 6 hours ago, chulander said: From your description, it sounds like KingSong's firmware updates resolved a list of problems that Gotway wheels don't have coming out of the factory ;). I'm sure there are many MSX users that would love softer pedals instead of the Hard, Hard and Hard modes to choose from. Nothing is ever perfect first time 😊 6 hours ago, chulander said: I'm not sure how I would feel about a wheel suddenly having "more torque" because that comes at the cost of a lower top speed (there's always a tradeoff). 6 hours ago, chulander said: However, having the ability to adjust the power curve is an interesting feature and very cool if users were allowed to alter their profile. but again, change always introduces risk no matter how small. Nope, top speed is still unaffected providing the rated wattage of the motor stays the same. (i.e not like the 2200wh KS8XL) It's more like changing the power curve to be less curved and more just a horizontal line. The ability to customise it would be wonderful however, much like the top-end Rion racing scooters @Alien Rides whips around. Although if you don't like small risks, this may not be your hobby 😉 6 hours ago, chulander said: By the way, faster and stiffer pedals are unrelated. You prefer the stiffer setting because it allows you to over lean over the front of the wheel. There are other ways to generate torque without putting yourself in harms way. I prefer the stiffer pedals as KS can be quite mushy and dip forward in turns. I am a fairly heavy guy and ride an 18L, so the less swing the better, especially when cornering quickly or gunning up bankings while off-roading in the mountains. By faster I mean quicker acceleration to get up to top speed, not top speed itself, which is entirely linked to pedal behaviour in the context of KS's previously swingy pedal response. As long as you are loving what you ride though that's all that matters Now back to the Monster Pro: does anyone know the battery arrangement (?S?P, cell type). I know the Sherman is 24s10P to make 240 cells total, is the MonPro 10P also? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chulander Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, Will R said: I'm not projecting my own experiences, the *considerable majority* of users have zero problems. There aren't going to be many search results for "firmware update goes perfectly fine" 😂 I'm sure there are many MSX users that would love softer pedals instead of the Hard, Hard and Hard modes to choose from. Nothing is ever perfect first time 😊 Nope, top speed is still unaffected providing the rated wattage of the motor stays the same. (i.e not like the 2200wh KS8XL) It's more like changing the power curve to be less curved and more just a horizontal line. The ability to customise it would be wonderful however, much like the top-end Rion racing scooters @Alien Rides whips around. Although if you don't like small risks, this may not be your hobby 😉 I prefer the stiffer pedals as KS can be quite mushy and dip forward in turns. I am a fairly heavy guy and ride an 18L, so the less swing the better, especially when cornering quickly or gunning up bankings while off-roading in the mountains. By faster I mean quicker acceleration to get up to top speed, not top speed itself, which is entirely linked to pedal behaviour in the context of KS's previously swingy pedal response. As long as you are loving what you ride though that's all that matters Now back to the Monster Pro: does anyone know the battery arrangement (?S?P, cell type). I know the Sherman is 24s10P to make 240 cells total, is the MonPro 10P also? 100% of Gotway wheels do not brick from firmware updates just like 100% of iPhones do not suffer from microSD issues common in Android phones. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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