King Song S18 Discussion

[dsd317]

17 minutes ago, Gustesta said:

Don't know if my S18 is the second batch

Who did you order from?  And when did you place your order?

[Gustesta]

1 hour ago, Mark Wilson said:

Does your S18 come with the block in the pedal hangar? I saw somewhere else that some S18's have a redesign that don't have this block from the factory.

Can you send me a picture of what you're talking about?

1 hour ago, dsd317 said:

Who did you order from?  And when did you place your order?

40 days ago with Green Fashion but I just received it now.

[eve]

1 hour ago, Gustesta said:

Don't know if my S18 is the second batch, but the suspension out of the box is flawlessly.  It's excellent!  I don't see any need on doing anything on the bolts etc.  Congrats @Jack King Song !

 

Can you pls fix your PSI? Its horrible to watch a wheel with 70% sag and can you pls shoot a similar shor video going trough grass? Taking very small bumps?  It looks very good but that was with a big bump.ň

I ordered mine from Chickway a month ago lol and it has been stuck in chinese customs forever i have no idea where it is now. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by eve

[Mark Wilson]

25 minutes ago, Gustesta said:

Can you send me a picture of what you're talking about?

That was an example of one with the block.

This is one that has a redesign that doesn't come with a block.

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Mark Wilson

[dsd317]

25 minutes ago, Gustesta said:

40 days ago with Green Fashion but I just received it now.

Thanks for your quick response!

Wow!  I ordered over 70 days ago (early June) from ewheels and still.....nothing!  If some of the recent online information regarding delays are true, then I probably won't have an S18 for another 10 days or more...making it double the delivery time compared to yours.

[NYC One Roll]

26 minutes ago, dsd317 said:

Thanks for your quick response!

Wow!  I ordered over 70 days ago (early June) from ewheels and still.....nothing!  If some of the recent online information regarding delays are true, then I probably won't have an S18 for another 10 days or more...making it double the delivery time compared to yours.

But at least LockSong won't be able to cripple your wheel! I am in the same boat as you, I ordered late June. eWheels should be shipping out probably next week. I doubt the suspensions issues were rectified in our batch though. It was probably in transit when all the issues being discussed were discovered. 

[Gustesta]

1 hour ago, eve said:

Can you pls fix your PSI? Its horrible to watch a wheel with 70% sag and can you pls shoot a similar shor video going trough grass? Taking very small bumps?  It looks very good but that was with a big bump.ň

I ordered mine from Chickway a month ago lol and it has been stuck in chinese customs forever i have no idea where it is now. 

I like that kind of sag.  They say it's the extreme one LOL.  I'll try to tape it later.  But I rode on grass and it did EXTREMELY well!!!  Feels much more stable than the other wheels I had in the past (16x, Tesla etc.). Liked a lot!  

[eve]

14 minutes ago, Gustesta said:

I like that kind of sag.  They say it's the extreme one LOL.  I'll try to tape it later.  But I rode on grass and it did EXTREMELY well!!!  Feels much more stable than the other wheels I had in the past (16x, Tesla etc.). Liked a lot!  

Unless it moves constantly when you ride on grass like those kind of mini-adjusments then its not working 100%.

[Gustesta]

16 minutes ago, eve said:

Unless it moves constantly when you ride on grass like those kind of mini-adjusments then its not working 100%.

It doesn't move all the time, it's the opposite.  It keeps the ride stable and very comfortable.

[Simply_Striking]

2 minutes ago, Gustesta said:

It doesn't move all the time, it's the opposite.  It keeps the ride stable and very comfortable.

Sag should only be 25-30% of the shocks travel....... For example if the shock has 3 inches of travel and you are already have a sag of 50% or greater you will have less than 1.5 inches of travel to absorb the impact. Also this shock is not linear so the closer it gets to it's limit the harsher, or the more resistance it will have. VS the 2 inches of travel it would have if setup to have the 25-30% sag. I mean to each his own, and if this suites you then by all means. Not all of us will want to ride on the same settings. Plus riding conditions play a role as well.

[Gustesta]

2 hours ago, Simply_Striking said:

Sag should only be 25-30% of the shocks travel....... For example if the shock has 3 inches of travel and you are already have a sag of 50% or greater you will have less than 1.5 inches of travel to absorb the impact. Also this shock is not linear so the closer it gets to it's limit the harsher, or the more resistance it will have. VS the 2 inches of travel it would have if setup to have the 25-30% sag. I mean to each his own, and if this suites you then by all means. Not all of us will want to ride on the same settings. Plus riding conditions play a role as well.

Sag is 20% when I stand up on the wheel.  When I start to ride it over bumps etc., it goes all the way to 50% or more.

[redfoxdude]

31 minutes ago, Gustesta said:

Sag is 20% when I stand up on the wheel.  When I start to ride it over bumps etc., it goes all the way to 50% or more.

Ah yeah, I think there can be some confusion around what different folks mean by "sag." 
Personally, I consider the sag as after it's recovered from some bumps. I measure my sag by mounting, bouncing a bit, then sliding the o-ring back up to see where it ended up settling. I've been keeping it around 30%, but 40% can be pretty cushy and comfy if you're not doing big jumps and stuff. It's all a preference thing 🙂

[Lukasz]

I have designed essential mods for Kingsong S18:

• pedal openers/leg savers (as pedal mounting wedges are very sharp and will cut your lower leg when you carry the wheel up the stairs for example)
• acceleration and breaking pads  - key feature to control the wheel in acceleration and in breaking - allowing better handling and overall control. 

Please contact me at a64(at)interia.pl if you are interested.

 

[pattymac]

11 hours ago, Feynman said:

The video looks the same, but some of the text commentary is different.  i.e. "... start with the outer screws." referring to the motor mount bolts.  

It's painful to watch. You can see at the 2:05 mark that the guy is installing lock washers over the bearings. You can also see the large washer on the outer link pivot. As he moves the assembly around with just the linkage installed, you can see how tight it is.

Definitely different than what the pre-production models looked like. I would guess they had a different group of people (poorly) figure out assembly vs. those who designed and built the pre-production models.

[Elliott Reitz]

26 minutes ago, pattymac said:

It's painful to watch. You can see at the 2:05 mark that the guy is installing lock washers over the bearings. You can also see the large washer on the outer link pivot. As he moves the assembly around with just the linkage installed, you can see how tight it is.

Definitely different than what the pre-production models looked like. I would guess they had a different group of people (poorly) figure out assembly vs. those who designed and built the pre-production models.

FWIW, the things I've done to make my suspension more responsive:

1. valve elbows - to figure out the best pressures for me. 

2. lubricate the sliders

3. remove the washers on the linkage pivot.

4. lubricate everything else. 

5. max-out the response valve (counterclockwise thumb wheel)

6. Try yet more pressure combinations! I like 200/100 upper/lower psi. (inflated without the pedal blocks)

7. Just ride!

OH, and by the way, that noise I had that sounded like a disintegrating bearing?  Well between the miles, the WD40, and the 3 in 1 oil... its gone now! So here's some fun bein baaad.

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Elliott Reitz

[Rehab1]

9 hours ago, pattymac said:

It's painful to watch. You can see at the 2:05 mark that the guy is installing lock washers over the bearings.

 

[FinRider]

7 hours ago, redfoxdude said:

Ah yeah, I think there can be some confusion around what different folks mean by "sag." 
Personally, I consider the sag as after it's recovered from some bumps. I measure my sag by mounting, bouncing a bit, then sliding the o-ring back up to see where it ended up settling. I've been keeping it around 30%, but 40% can be pretty cushy and comfy if you're not doing big jumps and stuff. It's all a preference thing 🙂

I use the same method. For me I have settled on a 12mm sag at mounting, which equals about 15mm of sag after bouncing on it a few times. The toal travel appears to be about 50mm so my sag is 20-30% --> the method to measure this is not exact science, so everyone should test and figure out on their own what is comfortable for them.

 

5 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

1. valve elbows - to figure out the best pressures for me. 

2. lubricate the sliders

3. remove the washers on the linkage pivot.

4. lubricate everything else. 

5. max-out the response valve (counterclockwise thumb wheel)

6. Try yet more pressure combinations! I like 200/100 upper/lower psi. (inflated without the pedal blocks)

7. Just ride!

This is a great list and I have reverted to doing the same.

1. I do not have the elbows yet, I ordered them last week and should have them next week sometime. You can still use the no-block method though even without the elbows. Just sit on the wheel, connect the pump, use the pump, sit on it again to remove the pump.

2. Yeah, I am now using teflon lube, which works well.

3. yeah, these needs to removed. I use spacers that touch the inner race of the bearings.

4. Lube is good

5. I use it at 5 clicks. Seems to be the sweet spot.

6. needs to be experimented with, I am at 180/100 atm and the sag-rebound etc is good for me (85kg)

7. I second that!

 

[Mark Wilson]

Wrong Way review of the S18:

 

Overall he had a pretty negative review of the S18 but I would like to ask S18 owners about the battery. He said that the wheel has serious battery sag issues but this is the first I'm hearing of this. Have you guys pushed the limits of the wheel and if so, how do you feel that it compares to other wheels? In his test, he said the wheel almost cutout while accelerating but he hit the limit while going about 44kmph, almost top speed. Is it normal to be able to overpower a wheel if you are accelerating a wheel near its top speed?

[NYC One Roll]

1 minute ago, Mark Wilson said:

Wrong Way review of the S18

 

Overall he had a pretty negative review of the S18 but I would like to ask S18 owners about the battery. He said that the wheel has serious battery sag issues but this is the first I'm hearing of this. Have you guys pushed the limits of the wheel and if so, how do you feel that it compares to other wheels? In his test, he said the wheel almost cutout while accelerating but he hit the limit while going about 44kmph, almost top speed. Is it normal to be able to overpower a wheel if you are accelerating a wheel near its top speed?

Yeah just watched that video myself. I did not intend on doing fast group rides with this wheel myself. I am also wondering what firmware he had on the S18, if the battery sag or cutoff can be fixed with a software patch or just the limiting battery size that cannot compensate for the larger motor. 

[redfoxdude]

1 minute ago, Mark Wilson said:

Wrong Way review of the S18:

Overall he had a pretty negative review of the S18 but I would like to ask S18 owners about the battery. He said that the wheel has serious battery sag issues but this is the first I'm hearing of this. Have you guys pushed the limits of the wheel and if so, how do you feel that it compares to other wheels? In his test, he said the wheel almost cutout while accelerating but he hit the limit while going about 44kmph, almost top speed. Is it normal to be able to overpower a wheel if you are accelerating a wheel near its top speed?

I haven't watched the review yet, but yes, especially for a King Song, my understanding is that it is pretty normal that you should more careful with acceleration when at higher speeds.
The battery, being a 3P, definitely does sag a bit lower than the 16X, for example, but I am a pretty conservative rider, so it hasn't been a big deal for me.

[Mark Wilson]

1 minute ago, nycommuter69 said:

Yeah just watched that video myself. I did not intend on doing fast group rides with this wheel myself. I am also wondering what firmware he had on the S18, if the battery sag or cutoff can be fixed with a software patch or just the limiting battery size that cannot compensate for the larger motor. 

It sounds to me like he hit the hardware limit of what the battery is capable of. I remember people complaining about there only being 3 parallel cells but since no one has complained or had any issues I assumed it wasn't a problem. Now I am wondering if most people are just not pushing the wheel as hard.

[redfoxdude]

6 minutes ago, Mark Wilson said:

It sounds to me like he hit the hardware limit of what the battery is capable of. I remember people complaining about there only being 3 parallel cells but since no one has complained or had any issues I assumed it wasn't a problem. Now I am wondering if most people are just not pushing the wheel as hard.

Yeah. To be fair, he primarily rides the MSS and is probably used to the really high torque it offers.

Edited September 3, 2020 by redfoxdude

[Toshio Uemura]

54 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

Yeah. To be fair, he primarily rides the MSS and is probably used to the really high torque it offers.

Good point! Isn’t it frightening how fast you get used to the high torque wheels and the insane acceleration they provide. It’s almost impossible to ride the older or less powerful wheels safely anymore. Just recently I had a face plant on my old E+ when I took it out for a nostalgic ride. 10 meters into a mildly steep hill out of the blue it cut off underneath me with an almost full battery and bloodstains on the pavement. I over-leaned the poor thing so viciously it had no chance.
Riding the KS S18 being used to the MSS may feel like riding the Ninebot One E+ after months on the Z10 with similarly dangerous results. 😝 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Toshio Uemura

[eve]

We got two cutouts. 1 an MSP rider and second an MSS rider. Not suprised they cutout.

In normal daily situation how many people actually want to get from 0-40kph immediately? The motor has been know for cutting out if accelaritng immediately top speed. Its not an S18 thing. Its a Kingsong motor problem.

Edited September 3, 2020 by eve

[UniVehje]

12 hours ago, Mark Wilson said:

Wrong Way review of the S18:

 

Overall he had a pretty negative review of the S18 but I would like to ask S18 owners about the battery. He said that the wheel has serious battery sag issues but this is the first I'm hearing of this. Have you guys pushed the limits of the wheel and if so, how do you feel that it compares to other wheels? In his test, he said the wheel almost cutout while accelerating but he hit the limit while going about 44kmph, almost top speed. Is it normal to be able to overpower a wheel if you are accelerating a wheel near its top speed?

The 16X is known for that same problem with pedal dipping when accelerating fast. The S18 has the same motor, just with less battery. I’m not surprised. Just ride at decent speeds and aggressiveness and it should be fine. 
 

Otherwise this review sums up my impressions pretty well. Looks really good in pictures and the suspension should be great on paper but the execution is lacking. And the street tire ruins it from being a dedicated off-roader. A niche wheel that has great promise to develop into an awesome wheel in the next generation. I really like the direction they are taking it with looks and suspension. It just takes more time to make it complete. Needs better build quality and better assembly for the suspension. It remains to be seen whether a wheel built around suspension system is the way to go in the future. The second generation of suspension wheels will be interesting. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by UniVehje