Are we good or bad for the environment?

[rolekl]

I'm curious about how we use our wheels, and if we're good or bad for the environment. PEV's are sometimes marketed as environment friendly, but I don't know... Right off the bat we're bandits, getting our wheels from a country heavily dependent on burning coal for power, then shipping it across the globe. Materials for the batteries are mined in dubious conditions.

 

Then, we have a largely carbon oxide free means of transport. If we use it for meaningful transport that otherwise would have taken place in cars, buses etc, we have a chance of redeeming ourselves. On the other hand, if we only use the wheels for play, and drive to the "trailhead" in an oversized car, then we add to the environmental cost...

 

So how do you use your wheels? Replacing car travel? Replacing bike rides or walks? Using it for fun and exploration?

 

Myself? Still on the dark side. Using my v5f mainly for learning. Tried commuting to work a few times, but the distance is on the edge for the range, the wheel is too slow and I'm replacing bike rides anyway, not gaining any karma... Used it to a couple of customer meetings where I would've taken the car otherwise, but I'm nowhere near the tipping point where I'm offsetting my carbon footprint. Unfortunately. 

[Darrell Wesh]

You’re not thinking broad enough...Congestion is also a big enemy. Less cars on the road means cars get to their destination faster and pollute the atmosphere less in the process. 

[mrelwood]

This is an interesting thought, but has so incredibly many aspects that I wouldn’t go as far as trying to evaluate the actual change in the overall carbon footprint. For example: What would you otherwise do the hours you now ride? Is the EUC good enough for your mood that you make better decisions about spending time, other purchases, travelling, eating and otherwise taking care of yourself? How wide does the butterfly effect of being seen on an PLEV reach? And so on. Then there are the aspects of breaking points: Will using more large batteried vehicles accelerate the advancements in battery technology in a more economical direction? PLEV friendly laws? Infrastructure? And so on and on.

Personally, my already rare use of a passenger car plummeted far far further. I now ride EUC worth many times the puny mileage I do on my car anymore. Whenever even remotely possible, I travel with an EUC. I have directly caused a few other persons turn EUC as well, both riding daily for both business and pleasure almost throughout the year.

Still, I mostly ride for fun, and serenity of the body and the mind. 

[null]

This is an interesting question indeed, we don't have so much numbers yet. We consume very little per km, however some EUC / PEVs get little milage due to various reasons.. I'd worry about beginner wheels and collections (little used wheels) more than daily drivers.

Edited January 4, 2020 by null

[Joker10]

I started riding for fun, but over the years it has become a device I use mainly for transportation.  It’s still fun, but I normally don’t ride unless I need to go somewhere.  I have an 18l and it gets me anywhere I need to go locally without recharging.  Tomorrow I am planning on riding four towns away, about 25 miles for a pool tournament, charging while I am playing and riding back about 6 hours later.  Hopefully it makes some difference other than saving me $100 in insurance payments each month for a second car.

[Mono]

Is going to the gym good or bad for the environment?

[Werner]

Riding the wheel is better than driving a car. 

Walking or cycling ( without a battery ) would surely be better than riding the wheel. 

[LanghamP]

Here's another way at looking at the cost of operating a wheel.

Given that you're an honest and socially responsible person operating on public streets, what's do you think is a fair yearly tax to operating your vehicles?

For example, my car is about $350 for insurance, and maybe $2000 in pollution cost ($6 per gallon in proven air pollution harm), and maybe $2000 in road wear (my car weighs 2600 pounds). Then there's the cost of parking lots and strips of death that prevent animals, insects, and vegetation from spreading beyond these tiny parcels of area that our roads make (turtles don't cross interstate highways). I'd guess that is at least a $1000 to possibly infinite (we lose the planet).

For my eBike and eWheels, in order to charge them it probably cost between 2 to 10 tons of coal per year. That tonnage surprised me greatly, so I think my math is off, but assuming I use 300 wh per day, and a 100 watt light bulb is proven to burn half a ton of coal per year, that's the probably incorrect figure I come up with. Then there's the infrastructure maintenance, which because we are so light...maybe $40 per year? Insurance is nill, because so far no one of the forum has killed nor injured anyone else. I'd guess around $200 total for social cost to operate a wheel.

Bicycles may be the only vehicle here that has a negative "cost", because using one makes you healthier. Riding one makes cars flow more freely on streets, because they reduce traffic (something that car drivers don't seem to know, but can be easily convinced by stating everyone but then drivers, so what does traffic look like). Still, they require infrastructure, so I'd guess $40 tax per year seems fair.

So in my opinion, the figures are stark; do everything within reason to avoid any car trips. The social cost is huge. 

[Ben Kim]

i think EUCs have a long enough lifespan where they’d do some good for the environment. However, the typical cheap no frills scooters you see on the streets do more damage than good. The average lifespan of one of those things in the hands of an average joe would be around 500 miles max, which means tons of waste. 

I think when i was without a car for 30 days due to an accident and EUC was my ONLY form of transportation, i saved about a tank of fuel per week (11 gallons). This equates to saving 97,757 grams of CO2 emissions per week. That’s nothing to sneeze at. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Ben Kim

[Mono]

8 hours ago, Werner said:

Walking or cycling ( without a battery ) would surely be better than riding the wheel. 

I don't think judging the environmental effects of walking vs EUCing is an obvious matter at all. If we just account for electricity it seems rather easy though, EUCing wins without much of a doubt, at least on smooth roads. Producing the extra food for walking is almost certainly much less environmental friendly than producing the electricity for riding the same distance.

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, Mono said:

I don't think judging the environmental effects of walking vs EUCing is an obvious matter at all. If we just account for electricity it seems rather easy though, EUCing wins without much of a doubt, at least on smooth roads. Producing the extra food for walking is almost certainly much less environmental friendly than producing the electricity for riding the same distance.

Mineral extraction is such a dirty industry that the environmental cost to make our wheels is far greater than making food with even very sorry nitrogen fixing processes.

Mining is incredibly dirty because you drill horizontal shafts into a hilltop, pack it with explosives, then take the debris and soak them into the most toxic and reactive chemicals possible. The resulting waste sludge is then places into impermeable pools, which is to say the sludge escapes into the environment upon the first wet season.

Mining in the US is found to be so dirty and so difficult except for grandfathered companies that it has essentially been deported overseas.

Fun fact: railroad companies are the biggest funding supporters of climate change denialism, because 1/3 of their cargo is from moving coal.

[dmethvin]

22 hours ago, LanghamP said:

For my eBike and eWheels, in order to charge them it probably cost between 2 to 10 tons of coal per year. That tonnage surprised me greatly, so I think my math is off, but assuming I use 300 wh per day, and a 100 watt light bulb is proven to burn half a ton of coal per year, that's the probably incorrect figure I come up with.

This page says it's about 2,460 KwH/ton. So 0.300KWh*365dy = 110KwH. Then 110KwH/2460KwH/ton = 044512 pounds or about 89 pounds. That seems more reasonable, although you'd need to burn those 89 pounds at the scale and efficiency of a commercial power plant to get the energy out.

Since that page was using pounds I assume they meant US tons but even if they meant metric tons it would be 98 pounds.

 

[LanghamP]

55 minutes ago, dmethvin said:

This page says it's about 2,460 KwH/ton. So 0.300KWh*365dy = 110KwH. Then 110KwH/2460KwH/ton = 044512 pounds or about 89 pounds. That seems more reasonable, although you'd need to burn those 89 pounds at the scale and efficiency of a commercial power plant to get the energy out.

Since that page was using pounds I assume they meant US tons but even if they meant metric tons it would be 98 pounds.

Thank you. I suspected my math was off, and it seems it was off by one magnitude, so I must have slipped a zero somewhere.

So a wheelbarrow of coal doesn't sound so bad, I think...?

Something I've not calculated because the answer would probably make me cringe, but how many miles does one travel in one's vehicle before the weight of fuel exceeds the loaded weight of the vehicle? 

[Mono]

20 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Mineral extraction is such a dirty industry that the environmental cost to make our wheels is far greater than making food with even very sorry nitrogen fixing processes.

I don't know why you would assume that food production is done without the "dirty mineral extraction". Maybe it takes alone as much electricity to produce the food (let alone transporting it) as the EUC needs as electricity for covering the distance. Making food to burn as means of an energetic source has for sure a much higher environmental burden than only making electricity and using it. A simple first hint is of course to again check the costs of both. I bet that the electricity is (far) more than ten times cheaper than the food.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Mono

[Mookie]

Everything takes carbon to produce.  Anything produced that eliminates the carbon emissions is great for the environment.   We still have to charge them up, so there is a carbon cost for the electricity, but very low compared to commuting with a gas vehicle.

[meepmeepmayer]

On 1/4/2020 at 5:36 PM, Werner said:

Riding the wheel is better than driving a car.

3 minutes ago, Mookie said:

We still have to charge them up, so there is a carbon cost for the electricity, but very low compared to commuting with a gas vehicle.

Yep.

I anyone complains about electric unicycles or other ridables, we can tell them to go f**k themselves and find a more worthwhile target like the nearest SUV (conveniently that also applies to every single other non-environmental discussion - just mention cars).

Do not allow yourselves to be trapped in discussions with false premises where different standards are applied to cars versus other vehicles, or to be distracted by some unimportant detail (that never gets mentioned with cars). "Go find the nearest car and leave me alone!".

Edited January 5, 2020 by meepmeepmayer

[ir_fuel]

1 hour ago, Mookie said:

We still have to charge them up, so there is a carbon cost for the electricity, but very low compared to commuting with a gas vehicle.

My solar panels produce 120% of my yearly electricity consumption. So that carbon cost should be pretty low  

Anyway, it's not up to me to play the eco warrior. I drive cars for fun ...

[chroma]

On 1/3/2020 at 10:25 PM, rolekl said:

I'm curious about how we use our wheels, and if we're good or bad for the environment. PEV's are sometimes marketed as environment friendly, but I don't know... Right off the bat we're bandits, getting our wheels from a country heavily dependent on burning coal for power, then shipping it across the globe. Materials for the batteries are mined in dubious conditions.

 

Then, we have a largely carbon oxide free means of transport. If we use it for meaningful transport that otherwise would have taken place in cars, buses etc, we have a chance of redeeming ourselves. On the other hand, if we only use the wheels for play, and drive to the "trailhead" in an oversized car, then we add to the environmental cost...

 

So how do you use your wheels? Replacing car travel? Replacing bike rides or walks? Using it for fun and exploration?

 

Myself? Still on the dark side. Using my v5f mainly for learning. Tried commuting to work a few times, but the distance is on the edge for the range, the wheel is too slow and I'm replacing bike rides anyway, not gaining any karma... Used it to a couple of customer meetings where I would've taken the car otherwise, but I'm nowhere near the tipping point where I'm offsetting my carbon footprint. Unfortunately. 

I mainly have PEV's for that reason. I do not own a car- I haven't driven one in 20years- I used to ride a road bike before, after 18 years of daily riding, my body is not the same it used to be-the transition to PEV was necessary- I think if people would only try to minimize their carbon footprint this would make a serious difference. I also feel that the petrol companies are not allowing the automobile industry to actually have  real innovations as they depend heavily on it to run their product. I hate the wars the petrol industry creates around the world (they almost feel like the cartels who control the flow of a substance that this nation is helplessly addicted to). I live in CA, LA county---Haven't needed a car to go to work and do grocery shopping- I am also not naive to think that we could do completely without, but the less people are daily driving cars, the more it would push the market to consider other real alternatives.

[Milan Vido]

For me i changed bus commuting for euc. Its 6km to and 6km from work. I don’t need to check bus times and con go when i go and door to door commuting is 25minutes vs 30 minutes. And of course there is fun on the way on euc vs crowded bus in peak times:) So I’m not saving planed, but I’m having fun:)

[travsformation]

Notwithstanding all that's been said, it's important to take into account the hidden costs of everything green, from transportation to energy production. I find there to be way too much complacency when it comes to the aforementioned. Solar panels for energy production and lithium/lead acid batteries (in the case of many households) for storage? Great! But what about the mineral extraction required? It's an environmentally devastating process...

Then there's the scarcity of the rare metals such as as the silver or tellurium used in crystalline silicon photvoltaics. And what of the end-of-life waste? Extraction of said silver involves exposure to heavy metals such as lead and cadmium...

The same issues apply to the components (batteries in particular) in our wheels. Then there's, as @rolekl mentioned, the coal-based energy used in the production process of our wheels, the fuel used to transport them, etc. Zero "riding emissions" doesn't mean zero environmental cost when the manufacturing process is far form green. Factor in the environmental impact of energy production (even if it comes from renewable sources), and there's plenty of food for thought there. It's a broad and complex issue to tackle, but it's worth giving it some thought instead of simply patting ourselves on the back for riding a "green, electric vehicle". We are more sustainable than other means of transportation, but we could be more sustainable, and I think it's constructive to raise the question

Edited January 6, 2020 by travsformation

[atdlzpae]

On 1/4/2020 at 5:36 PM, Werner said:

Walking or cycling ( without a battery ) would surely be better than riding the wheel.

You're mistaken. Walking and cycling are less efficient. A quote from PEV's are the most efficient mode of transport

Quote

I'm pretty sure PLEV's are the first, before walking and cycling.
It's way less impactful/cheaper/easier to generate 1kWh in the form of electricity. And prices reflect that - 1kWh in food (2 chocolates) == $2 while 1kWh in electricity == $0.15.
Add a fact that electric engines have like 90% efficiency, while human body has around 25% and the difference is staggering.
According to a random "walking calorie calculator" my calories per 50km is 5500kcal. One charge of MSX is around 2kWh. So about 3 times less CO2 and way cheaper energy source. :-)
Bicycle is better, but still worse - 2800kcal per 50km. And requires way more square meters in soil than an equivalent solar panels.

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by atdlzpae

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, atdlzpae said:

You're mistaken. Walking and cycling are less efficient. A quote from PEV's are the most efficient mode of transport

Not if the cost of constructing the raw materials is taken into account.

 

[MetricUSA]

If you are a maker of Segway minis, I say your fucking bad for environment, since you made a one time use throw-a-way products... The bastards made replaceable batteries but did not make packs for us to buy to replace them!!! 🖕 #fuckNinebot

[rolekl]

5 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Not if the cost of constructing the raw materials is taken into account.

 

Interesting, I must have missed that thread... or forgotten it... 😨. It's a complex calculation however you think about it.

My take though is that if we use the wheels for actual "necessary" transport that otherwise would've happened in cars (e g commuting), we're all good. As @meepmeepmayer wrote, "Go find the nearest car and leave me alone!". If we're just faffing around doing "unnecessary" mileage then perhaps the statement "PEVs are good for the environment" begins to fade. I was just curious what kind of usage the wheels see.

[ir_fuel]

11 hours ago, travsformation said:

We are more sustainable than other means of transportation, but we could be more sustainable, and I think it's constructive to raise the question

To be more sustainable people should simply stop ordering stuff on Gearbest, Banggood and Aliexpress.

Think of the CO2 cost of shipping all that junk from China + the environmental cost of all those grey plastic bags they use.